I Would Still Be Born Despite the Abortion

[Guest]

This OP has nothing to do (in my mind) with current political issues--just so you know. I'm just thinking about it. I suppose [because I was raised in a faith that teaches the eternal (back and forward) nature of the spirit] that I feel compelled to believe that every abortion results in the person being born somewhere and some-when else. In other words, if it is true that I was me before birth and I will continue to be me after death, then had my mother undergone an abortion I would have just been born to some other woman--or to the same woman later. Maybe I’d be better off in this world, or maybe I’d be worse off.  But I would still be born.  No?

 

 

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not sure I can answer your question, though your reasoning sounds logical.  Aborted babies go to heaven, according to my faith tradition.  Still, we teach that abortion is sin. 

[Crypto]

The church doesn't have an answer to whether aborted babies are born at some other time. I'd wager a guess that having an opportunity at living life during the millennium is also possible.

[Josiah]

The question here is at what point the spirit is fully and permanently connected to the body. There's no official answer I'm aware of, but speculatively it seems possible that some abortions or other difficulties could occur before this happens, which could lead to the situation you describe. Then again, maybe not, considering how strongly and on what grounds we oppose abortion. Hard to say.

 

In any case, we do know from Moroni 8 that little children and infants who die are basically set. 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Josiah

[james12]

This OP has nothing to do (in my mind) with current political issues--just so you know. I'm just thinking about it. I suppose [because I was raised in a faith that teaches the eternal (back and forward) nature of the spirit] that I feel compelled to believe that every abortion results in the person being born somewhere and some-when else. In other words, if it is true that I was me before birth and I will continue to be me after death, then had my mother undergone an abortion I would have just been born to some other woman--or to the same woman later. Maybe I’d be better off in this world, or maybe I’d be worse off.  But I would still be born.  No?

We often talk about the eternal nature of the family in the church. We talk about how relationships continue after death and into the eternities. However, we rarely talk about family bonds before this life. But I believe family existed well before entering mortality. You already had a relationship to your mother and father forged over eons of time. So in my opinion you would not be born to different parents if your mother aborted you. This would wreck havoc on the family and plan of salvation before you were even born.  

 

Consider the temple sealing ceremony and the mirrors on either side of the altar. They show continuing images of husband and wife (and child if present) forwards and back. Does this not give us a hint of what happened before this life? I suggest it does.

[james12]

In any case, we do know from Moroni 8 that little children and infants who die are basically set. 

It appears to me this issue of children entering the celestial kingdom has distorted the view of this life and could lead a person down the wrong path. Let me ask a question. Is it better, and safer, to die before your eight so you are assured a place in the celestial kingdom? Or does mortality provide some advantage that cannot be obtained after this life?

[Guest]

It appears to me this issue of children entering the celestial kingdom has distorted the view of this life and could lead a person down the wrong path. Let me ask a question. Is it better, and safer, to die before your eight so you are assured a place in the celestial kingdom? Or does mortality provide some advantage that cannot be obtained after this life?

I'm comfortable speculating that it has given some people facility to rationalize bizarre acts like murdering their children to protect them from the horrors of life here and (presumably in their own minds) ensure them a place in the Celestial Kingdom.This is not to say that the tradition itself is to blame. I perceive that mortality provides experiences that one can't otherwise obtain. If not, there's no point in any of us being here. But if it's strictly true, then it seems that one who dies before the age of accountability would be crippled in terms of progression.

Edited September 17, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Guest]

... I believe family existed well before entering mortality. You already had a relationship to your mother and father forged over eons of time. So in my opinion you would not be born to different parents if your mother aborted you....

Thousands of members believe, too, and I respect that. But I don't believe it. (The following quote lends to my thoughts, but I realize Joseph Fielding Smith may have been speaking as a man and not a prophet.)

 

"We have no scriptural justification for the belief that we had the privilege of choosing our parents and our life companions in the spirit world. The belief has been advocated by some, and it's possible that in some instances it is true, but it would require too great a stretch of the imagination to believe it to be so in all, or even in the majority of cases..." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Way to Perfection, 44.)

Edited September 17, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Guest]

I'm not sure I can answer your question, though your reasoning sounds logical.  Aborted babies go to heaven, according to my faith tradition.  Still, we teach that abortion is sin. 

Right, and so that's why you and I choose to not perform abortions and we choose to encourage those within our circles of influence to choose likewise. I think I know where "my faith" tradition originates, but I'm curious to learn where "your faith" tradition originates. Can you tell me more (about your tradition that aborted babies go to heaven, I mean)?

Edited September 17, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[prisonchaplain]

Right, and so that's why you and I choose to not perform abortions and we choose to encourage those within our circles of influence to choose likewise. I think I know where "my faith" tradition originates, but I'm curious to learn where "your faith" tradition originates. Can you tell me more (about your tradition that aborted babies go to heaven, I mean)?

 

Sure, like most Christians from more conservative, Evangelical type backgrounds, I see in scripture the idea that people become accountable for their actions as they reach understanding.  In Judaism it's age 13.  I would not fix a hard-and-fast age, but children are spared God's judgment, should they die.  The forgiveness Christ won us extends to those too young to understand their sin and the need for repentance.

 

Our view contrasts with sacramental theology, which teaches that redemption comes through rituals, such as baptism; or through the authority of a religious organization.

 

Interestingly--and I tread lightly here--LDS teaching seems to embrace both the authority of the Church (and the spiritual power of baptism), and yet still hold to a kind of "Age of Accountability" teaching.

[NeuroTypical]

Here's my line of reasoning.

 

So, globs of cells are globs of cells.  They are not sentient, have no rights, are not people.  People are people.  People have rights and deserve equal protection under the law.

 

Humans can create human life from where human life currently is not.  That means, at some point in the process, non-human life becomes human life.  

 

Few would argue that a born, crying child is not a person but instead is a glob of cells.

 

Slightly more would argue that an unborn baby, capable of living independently of the mother should it be born, is a person.

 

Even more would argue that a 3rd trimester fetus, which would probably die if removed from the mother, but can react to light and pain, is a person.

 

Even more would argue that a 2nd trimester fetus is a person.

 

Tons of people argue that that dolphin-looking thing with a tail in the first x months of development is a person.

 

Few people believe that a fertilized blastocyst is a person.

 

Almost nobody believes that an unfertilized egg, or a sperm, is a person.

 

So, to summarize:

- Up to a point, organic matter isn't a person, does not deserve equal protection under the law, the soul has not entered into the body, and it isn't murder to do something with it.  (If I've lost you here, do you consider ovulation murder?  Or masturbation?  Probably not, right?)

 

- There's apparently a magic line somewhere that brings non-person matter into personhood.

- We all think we know what that line is.

- We all disagree with each other, and we all think we're right and everyone else is wrong.

- As far as I can tell, scripture and revelation is vague about it.  Church policy seems vague about it as well - handbook 1 talks about abortions, but says nothing about punching yourself in the stomach or taking the morning after pill.  The word "unborn" doesn't appear in handbook 1.

- There has to be something codified in law, so we'll know when to allow a mother choice over her body, and when to arrest her for murder.  Currently, that line is set where it is, leaving most pro-life folks ticked off.  If we were to move the line, the pro-choice people would be ticked off.

 

So basically, we're not into reincarnation, so yeah, we can abort someone and murder them.  And before that magic line, we're not aborting any living thing.  I doubt it's like we were headed somewhere and got redirected because someone got an abortion.  I think it's more like either something happens to a glob of cells and no soul is impacted, or else you're killed before the age of 8 and head to the celestial kingdom.

Edited September 17, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[hagoth]

...

Edited September 20, 2015 by hagoth

[char713]

My husband was nearly aborted. He believes his spirit would have had a second chance in a different body, different parents, but he would not be the same person he is now. Nature/nurture, he would be a completely different person, apart from whatever parts of his spirit remained constant regardless of circumstance.

[Guest]

... So basically, we're not into reincarnation, so yeah, we can abort someone and murder them.  And before that magic line, we're not aborting any living thing.  I doubt it's like we were headed somewhere and got redirected because someone got an abortion.  I think it's more like either something happens to a glob of cells and no soul is impacted, or else you're killed before the age of 8 and head to the celestial kingdom.

(I think I was essentially with you on most of what you wrote, but as I said at the top I wasn't very interested in meandering into political issues, etc.) But I'm interested in your doubt about being headed and redirected. I'm not seeing at the moment how the aborted fetus, zygote, blastocyst, etc. is so much different than the ones destroyed in a host of other ways (intentional or unintentional, through malice or accident, etc). I still find myself wondering whether I should consider them in the same category as born children under the age of accountability. I find myself then wondering if I should consider a blastocyst, as you mentioned, as having filled the measure--meaning the "individual" involved got a body? I suppose each question asked is like a door that opens to so many more doors-questions.

[Guest]

My husband was nearly aborted. He believes his spirit would have had a second chance in a different body, different parents, but he would not be the same person he is now. Nature/nurture, he would be a completely different person, apart from whatever parts of his spirit remained constant regardless of circumstance.

Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense. One particular reason I like it is because I also feel that circumstances and something like the so-called Butterfly Effect have such a profound impact on development, attitude, outlook, etc., etc. Only God Himself could possibly unravel how tightly screwed up this mortal life makes us. It's another reason we need a Savior to fix us when we get back "after all we can do".

Edited September 17, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[pkstpaul]

A person's DNA is typed in the generation of the first cell formed after conception. That makes the person unique. You have effectively formed a person. Heavenly Father being willing to "recycle" your spirit to assign it to another DNA imprint is pure speculation and I dare say a selfish hope for those who want to justify the ending of the life that was created.

 

I think, if you are willing to believe spirits can have a second chance, why not adopt the precept of reincarnation in its entirety? If I was born to a bad family and my only chance at the Celestial Kingdom was to adopt a new family - "Heavenly Father, be merciful and send me back to Earth."  How many chances can I then have?

Edited September 17, 2015 by pkstpaul

[Guest]

A person's DNA is typed in the generation of the first cell formed after conception. That makes the person unique. You have effectively formed a person. Heavenly Father being willing to "recycle" your spirit to assign it to another DNA imprint is pure speculation and I dare say a selfish hope for those who want to justify the ending of the life that was created.

 

I think, if you are willing to believe spirits can have a second chance, why not adopt the precept of reincarnation in its entirety? If I was born to a bad family and my only chance at the Celestial Kingdom was to adopt a new family - "Heavenly Father, be merciful and send me back to Earth."  How many chances can I then have?

 

I wondered how long before someone would invoke reincarnation. (Even though I don't think this qualifies as reincarnation even as a start vs it's entirety.) I agree that the DNA is typed in, but what about genetically identical twins--which of course is impossible speaking from experience. No two people are identical. But the two persons you must also refer two have the same DNA, so doesn't that negate your premise? It isn't the DNA that makes the person "unique".  Moreover, it's inaccurate to say you have effectively formed a person. I think all you did was effectively start the process of making a body for a person. So, like I discussed briefly with NeuroTypical, does that mean you can say the spirit obtained a body (even if it is only a blastocyst) according to the plan?  If so, I suppose that would save you from having to allow for the possibility that the spirit gets another "chance".

Edited September 17, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Guest]

...Heavenly Father being willing to "recycle" your spirit to assign it to another DNA imprint is pure speculation and I dare say a selfish hope for those who want to justify the ending of the life that was created....

I suppose one can use words like recycle or whatever one prefers, and *of course* all this is pure speculation. I thought I made that clear at the outset. Moreover, you are free to feel suspicious of me or anyone else who entertains a post on this OP.  However, such suspicions don't apply (to me) because I oppose abortion. But your remark brings up yet another question in my mind. Hmmm, on second thought I'll save the question for another day. :) 

[Guest]

The church doesn't have an answer to whether aborted babies are born at some other time. I'd wager a guess that having an opportunity at living life during the millennium is also possible.

This may be the simplest (in a good way) resolution to the thought-problem. I suppose a thousand years would do nicely for the billion-plus people whose bodies died, were destroyed, etc. in the womb since the beginning of life here.  :)

[Sojourn]

We often talk about the eternal nature of the family in the church. We talk about how relationships continue after death and into the eternities. However, we rarely talk about family bonds before this life. But I believe family existed well before entering mortality. You already had a relationship to your mother and father forged over eons of time. So in my opinion you would not be born to different parents if your mother aborted you. This would wreck havoc on the family and plan of salvation before you were even born.  

 

Consider the temple sealing ceremony and the mirrors on either side of the altar. They show continuing images of husband and wife (and child if present) forwards and back. Does this not give us a hint of what happened before this life? I suggest it does.

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have gone down that line of reasoning myself and I ways run into conundrums. As an example I think about a child born out of wedlock. Does that mean the Heavenly Father planned for that couple to transgress his laws? Conundrum.

 

But let’s just take your statement “But I believe family existed well before entering mortality.” In support of you belief we have a quote from President Jeddah M. Grant, Councilor to Brigham Young, also marveled at this extensive order and organization in the spirit world. He said after being taken in vision to the spirit world just before his own death in 1856, “But Oh, the order and government that were there.  When in the spirit world I saw the order of righteous men and women and beheld them in there several grades, and there appeared to be no obstruction of my vision.  I could see every man and women in their grade and order.  I looked to see if there was any disorder there but there was none.”  He said that, “The people that he saw there were organized in family capacities, and when he looked at them he saw grade after grade and all were organized and in perfect harmony.”

 

Considering the statement “organized in family capacities” could be interpreted as broad as – people were organized in nations.  And indeed there is scriptural support for that notion.

 

Also in support of your belief, when I watch TV programs that show how lost family members ( like adopted out) find each other I see this unbelievable bond that is there and can’t help to think that that bond was formed long ago, but it is just my feeling.

 

As to my own children I can’t but help to think that at some point I held my arm to the square and accepted the responsibility to be their parent, but again just a feeling.

 

So many unanswered questions here that I have to keep my mind opened to further understanding. I would love to know this too.

[Sojourn]

My husband was nearly aborted. He believes his spirit would have had a second chance in a different body, different parents, but he would not be the same person he is now. Nature/nurture, he would be a completely different person, apart from whatever parts of his spirit remained constant regardless of circumstance.

 

char713 - Here are my thoughts on your thought about being completely different. Sorry, I have to take an extreme example to allow for easier delineation.  If Lucifer were allowed to be born, but got aborted, but then finely got his body, how would he be different than the aborted body? He might have had brown eyes instead of blue. He might have had wavy hair instead of straight, but basically he would still be Lucifer the deceiver. Could he be nurtured such that he would be more Christ like? I wonder.

I believe that from the preexistence we had intellect, we had personality, we had the propensity to obey or disobey and that our intelligence had the capacity to grow and that these things were not created or made neither indeed could be.  I believe that if we were put into any number of bodies, we would still be very similar to that basic “me” in many respects.

 

You have a good husband. Rest assured that he has been that way for a very long time and is yet improving on the whole prospect.

 

Thanks for your response.  It causes me to ponder.

[james12]

Thousands of members believe, too, and I respect that. But I don't believe it. (The following quote lends to my thoughts, but I realize Joseph Fielding Smith may have been speaking as a man and not a prophet.)

I did not say we chose our parents in pre-earth life. Rather we have had a relationship with them that has extended a long long time. Family is the government of God and we had a place in it before this life.

[james12]

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have gone down that line of reasoning myself and I ways run into conundrums. As an example I think about a child born out of wedlock. Does that mean the Heavenly Father planned for that couple to transgress his laws? Conundrum.

In this fallen world people make all sorts of poor choices. God does not plan such things but he of course, knows of them. Brigham Young had a vision where Joseph Smith came to him and told him the following,

Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion. Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity. ((Manuscript History of Brigham Young, p. 530).

 These words have some important truths. First, that before this life the entire mortal family was organized in family capacities. As such, they formed a great geneological chain from Adam. Second, our Father is re-organizing those who will follow his spirit just as they were before this life. 

But let’s just take your statement “But I believe family existed well before entering mortality.” In support of you belief we have a quote from President Jeddah M. Grant, Councilor to Brigham Young, also marveled at this extensive order and organization in the spirit world. He said after being taken in vision to the spirit world just before his own death in 1856, “But Oh, the order and government that were there.  When in the spirit world I saw the order of righteous men and women and beheld them in there several grades, and there appeared to be no obstruction of my vision.  I could see every man and women in their grade and order.  I looked to see if there was any disorder there but there was none.”  He said that, “The people that he saw there were organized in family capacities, and when he looked at them he saw grade after grade and all were organized and in perfect harmony.”

 

Considering the statement “organized in family capacities” could be interpreted as broad as – people were organized in nations.  And indeed there is scriptural support for that notion.

 

Also in support of your belief, when I watch TV programs that show how lost family members ( like adopted out) find each other I see this unbelievable bond that is there and can’t help to think that that bond was formed long ago, but it is just my feeling.

 

As to my own children I can’t but help to think that at some point I held my arm to the square and accepted the responsibility to be their parent, but again just a feeling.

 

So many unanswered questions here that I have to keep my mind opened to further understanding. I would love to know this too.

Yes, I've seen this quote from Jedediah M. Grant. Certainly when he says they were "organized in family capacities" that is exactly what he means. Imagine rank on rank of the hosts of heaven all organized by family. 

[Guest]

I did not say we chose our parents in pre-earth life. Rather we have had a relationship with them that has extended a long long time. Family is the government of God and we had a place in it before this life.

I apologize if I suggested you said something you didn't say.  So, we had a relationship with the people who ended up being our parents here on earth?  Describe the relationship if you will.  

[james12]

I apologize if I suggested you said something you didn't say.  So, we had a relationship with the people who ended up being our parents here on earth?  Describe the relationship if you will.  

I see it much as good family relationships here but coupled with a glory we do not now enjoy.