omegaseamaster75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 The problem isn't that there isn't that you can't accept human frailty in our leaders... The problem is that such people rarely stop there. The very next step after that is Fixing what we think/assume our leaders screwed up.can be all kinds of wrong. Many who wish to hold the line against that step get labeled as all kinds of nasty names and accused of worshiping our leaders rather then the Lord.Hymn number 27. Drops the mic and walks out of the room..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I agree with you -that - is a huge problem. Such people sometimes make the news, like Kate Kelly and John Dehlin. But opposite, hero worship, can also be problematic, and we rarely talk about that side of the issue. I guess we have different experiences then. Seems like every time I see someone standing up for the Church as an organization and its leaders that is almost always the first charge leveled against them. Vort 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 <eyeroll> Picks up the mic and puts it back on its stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Hymn number 27. Drops the mic and walks out of the room..... Please... Base on your prior posts here you are so full of contradictions that you don't know if you are coming or going... But feel free to keep on walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I guess we have different experiences then. Seems like every time I see someone standing up for the Church as an organization and its leaders that is almost always the first charge leveled against them. That is precisely my point...that we have had different experiences. I see both problems though, and I mention it for those, who like me, might struggle the other side too. I don't mean struggle with other people's hero worship. I leave that to each person to deal with for themselves. I mean when your own hero worship becomes a stumbling block to you rather than a help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Please... Base on your prior posts here you are so full of contradictions that you don't know if you are coming or going... But feel free to keep on walking.Dig em up. You want to bring up old posts and contradictions it can go both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Fun fact: Infallible means the exact same thing as fallible. Wikipedia editors may feel free to quote me on this. The Folk Prophet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Dig em up. You want to bring up old posts and contradictions it can go both ways Oh... so you didn't drop the mic and walk out after all... Fine... explain how the hymn Praise to the Man... relates to my post about people not stopping at recognizing that our leaders are flawed (which I have never denied) and instead moving on to fault finding and taking it upon themselves state how God should manage his church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 That is precisely my point...that we have had different experiences. I see both problems though, and I mention it for those, who like me, might struggle the other side too. I don't mean struggle with other people's hero worship. I leave that to each person to deal with for themselves. I mean when your own hero worship becomes a stumbling block to you rather than a help. Do you assume then I that some how don't see both problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I strongly suspect that when we have advanced far enough to understand things as they are, we will see the so-called "Adam God doctrine" in an entirely different light. We may find that it is far more true than we currently think, and that weaknesses of our language or deficiencies in our understanding of how things really work -- or both -- are at the root of this supposedly controversial (and doubtless poorly understood) teach of President Young.well according to genesis we are as gods, and the spirit is like unto Gods spirit. I'd also wager that in the end what it means to be a god is a bit different than what we concieve it to be as well. Vort 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Do you assume then I that some how don't see both problems? Do you? I'm only basing my responses on your comments in this thread. You haven't said anything that gives me indication that you do. I'm open to new information. I'm looking for a debate here (where each person holds steadfastly to their own opinion and sees the other person as an opponent), but for dialogue (where two people who have different views, listen to one another and try to learn, even if they don't change their original stance, they have a better understanding.) IMO, I have represented that my wish is to dialogue by agreeing with you,( about Kate Kelly types) and explaining that my intent is to help those who struggle not to judge others. I'm unclear at this point of what your intentions are. Edited September 30, 2015 by LiterateParakeet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhoades Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Should I write out a list of every error, mistake, sin in my past, and in my husband's, and in my family's, so that you can all be sure to know we aren't perfect? In case you miss some things, would you like some of us who have never met you but have a portion of your writings to help add to the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 In case you miss some things, would you like some of us who have never met you but have a portion of your writings to help add to the list? I'll quote one of my favorite songwriters: "I'm well versed in how I might be cursed, I don't need it articulated." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhoades Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 In case you miss some things, would you like some of us who have never met you but have a portion of your writings to help add to the list? I'll quote one of my favorite songwriters: "I'm well versed in how I might be cursed, I don't need it articulated." BTW -- Those who don't add to the list must think you are infallible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Do you? I'm only basing my responses on your comments in this thread. You haven't said anything that gives me indication that you do. I'm open to new information. I'm looking for a debate here (where each person holds steadfastly to their own opinion and sees the other person as an opponent), but for dialogue (where two people who have different views, listen to one another and try to learn, even if they don't change their original stance, they have a better understanding.) IMO, I have represented that my wish is to dialogue by agreeing with you, and explaining that my intent is to help not to judge others. I'm unclear at this point of what your intentions are. Basic scriptural commandments. "Thou shall have no other God be for me"... "Cursed is he that puts his trust in the arm of the flesh." and I am sure there are many other but those are the first two to come to mind. I am neither ignorant of the scriptures nor of the dangers of putting the messengers ahead of the message. However if you kill or otherwise reject the messengers it becomes very hard to hear the message Blackmarch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 hindsight is 20/20, we can see the errors but for some reason get lambasted when we point them out. The lambasting is not because they point out true errors. The lambasting is because they lie and misrepresent the past and the leaders, pretending to some great insights that they do not have. They are pursuing their agenda, and this axe-grinding makes them unreliable and their supposed insights of no worth. Leah and Jedi_Nephite 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Oh... so you didn't drop the mic and walk out after all... Fine... explain how the hymn Praise to the Man... relates to my post about people not stopping at recognizing that our leaders are flawed (which I have never denied) and instead moving on to fault finding and taking it upon themselves state how God should manage his church. See:The problem isn't that there isn't that you can't accept human frailty in our leaders... The problem is that such people rarely stop there. The very next step after that is Fixing what we think/assume our leaders screwed up. That can be all kinds of wrong. Many who wish to hold the line against that step get labeled as all kinds of nasty names and accused of worshiping our leaders rather then the Lord.As relates to our hero worship of leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 omega, do me a favor and google "Praise". Then google "Worship". Let us know what you find out. I thought this graphic fit the thread well: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 See:As relates to our hero worship of leadership. So if my son does something I am very proud of and I "sing his praises" to everyone I met... I am worshiping my son? A church that accepts its leaders as men of God sings about its mortal founder and the things he did. Is worshiping their founder? Vort and Just_A_Guy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Basic scriptural commandments. "Thou shall have no other God be for me"... "Cursed is he that puts his trust in the arm of the flesh." and I am sure there are many other but those are the first two to come to mind. I am neither ignorant of the scriptures nor of the dangers of putting the messengers ahead of the message.However if you kill or otherwise reject the messengers it becomes very hard to hear the messageI'm still not feeling like you understand where I'm coming from. Your last line in particular signals to me that you don't.I agree with your last line , but I thought I made that point abundantly clear. I'm not talking about people who are looking for excuses for their own behavior and pride (Kate Kelly and John Dehlin). I'm talking about people like Josh Weed. When he realized that he had same sex attraction and read The Miracle of Forgiveness, it was excruciatingly painful to him. He didn't go on a crusade to condemn the church. He suffered quietly. His dad fortunately gave him sage advice that our leaders are not perfect, only Christ was perfect.I have my own version of why this is important to me, but one example is sufficient.People like me and Josh...and others can benefit from being reminded that our leaders aren't perfect. That is not the same as killing or rejecting the messenger. Edited September 30, 2015 by LiterateParakeet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I'm still not feeling like you understand where I'm coming from. Your last line in particular signals to me that you don't.I agree with your last line , but I thought I made that point abundantly clear. I'm not talking about people who are looking for excuses for their own behavior and pride (Kate Kelly and John Dehlin).I'm talking about people like Josh Weed. When he realized that he had same sex attraction and read The Miracle of Forgiveness, it was excruciatingly painful to him. He didn't go on a crusade to condemn the church. But he did suffer quietly. His dad fortunately gave him sage advice that our leaders are not perfect, only Christ was perfect.I have my own version of why this is important to me, but one example is sufficient.People like me and Josh...and others can benefit from wing reminded that our leaders aren't perfect. That is not the same as killing or rejecting the messenger. And there is a time and a place for that reminder... Usually right when someone is personally directly suffering because they forgot or never really understood it. This thread does not meet that criteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 And there is a time and a place for that reminder... Usually right when someone is personally directly suffering because they forgot or never really understood it.This thread does not meet that criteriaI disagree because usually those people suffer quietly and silently slip right out of the church...never sharing their doubts and concerns until they are solidly on the outside of the fold and have no intention of returning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) I disagree because usually those people suffer quietly and silently slip right out of the church...never sharing their doubts and concerns until they are solidly on the outside of the fold and have no intention of returning. Fair enough... But I think you would also agree (I am assuming you understand both sides) we also need to avoid alienating people from Leaders God has chosen. Alienation from anyone is all to easy when we spend time on their negative traits. Edited September 30, 2015 by estradling75 pam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Fair enough... But I think you would also agree (I am assuming you understand both sides) we also need to avoid alienating people from Leaders God has chosen. Alienation from anyone is all to easy when we spend time on their negative traits. This is where I think my own thoughts are going. People want to talk so much about the negative but what about the wonderful things these men (listed in the OP) did as well? Especially when many of them returned to activity and membership in the Church. Personally I hope when I'm gone that I'm remembered for the good things I did. Not have my faults brought up over 100 years from now. EarlJibbs and mordorbund 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Fair enough... But I think you would also agree (I am assuming you understand both sides) we also need to avoid alienating people from Leaders God has chosen. Alienation from anyone is all to easy when we spend time on their negative traits.Yes, I definitely agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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