The night Elder Dallin H. Oaks was held at gunpoint

[Vort]

Do you think there are none?

 

Beyond the bare fact of staying alive (which is no small spiritual gift), I can't think of any.

[estradling75]

But does that mean only a negative could come from such an action?

 

Why do you keep repeating "only negative"?   I never used the word "only" and I never used the word "negative"   I only pointed out the plan fact that killing a person is very likely to alter a person.  Alteration can be either good or bad. 

 

Now I like the way Elder Oaks is currently (and I think others do too) and I would reflexively dislike the idea of his changing away from that because I have a hard time seeing how he would change to be better then he is now.

[erog84]

I don't think anyone but God can say what type of spiritual advancement or step back Elder Oaks could have had happen if he did kill that man in self defense.  I could see it going either way.  Perhaps having to take a life he comes to a greater appreciation for life (even more so than he had at the time).  Or perhaps as others have mentioned, it would have been very detrimental to him.  I think it is great he listened to the spirit, regardless of whether it was to attack or not.  We must remember Nephi was specifically instructed to kill Laban, so it can go either way, but we have to follow the spirit regardless of the outcome.

[estradling75]

I don't think anyone but God can say what type of spiritual advancement or step back Elder Oaks could have had happen if he did kill that man in self defense.  I could see it going either way.  Perhaps having to take a life he comes to a greater appreciation for life (even more so than he had at the time).  Or perhaps as others have mentioned, it would have been very detrimental to him.  I think it is great he listened to the spirit, regardless of whether it was to attack or not.  We must remember Nephi was specifically instructed to kill Laban, so it can go either way, but we have to follow the spirit regardless of the outcome.

 

God kind of did say.... When he told Elder Oaks not to do it...  

[erog84]

God kind of did say.... When he told Elder Oaks not to do it...  

"We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man's chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also understood that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.".

 

I guess I read that differently than you.  I read it as in he felt the Spirit telling him that he would end the man's life if he went that direction, but the blood on his conscience was his own understanding.  Obviousely God did not want him to end this man's life, whether for his own benefit, or the mans, or things we can't even understand, I have no idea.

[estradling75]

"We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man's chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also understood that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.".

 

I guess I read that differently than you.  I read it as in he felt the Spirit telling him that he would end the man's life if he went that direction, but the blood on his conscience was his own understanding.  Obviousely God did not want him to end this man's life, whether for his own benefit, or the mans, or things we can't even understand, I have no idea.

 

 

It is possible that we do read it differently... The statement that he "Must not have it on his conscience" seems to me telling of a negative impact to Elder Oaks for the rest of his life

[erog84]

Yes re-reading it, I would say your interpretation is probably more likely to be accurate.  I read through it and assumed my original point of view automatically.  Is there takebacks? I agree with your assessment now!

[mirkwood]

Why do you keep repeating "only negative"?   I never used the word "only" and I never used the word "negative"   I only pointed out the plan fact that killing a person is very likely to alter a person.  Alteration can be either good or bad. 

 

Now I like the way Elder Oaks is currently (and I think others do too) and I would reflexively dislike the idea of his changing away from that because I have a hard time seeing how he would change to be better then he is now.

 

I was trying to clarify what you are saying.

[mirkwood]

Beyond the bare fact of staying alive (which is no small spiritual gift), I can't think of any.

 

So you do not believe any spiritual growth could come of such an action.

 

You are wrong.

[The Folk Prophet]

While it shouldn't affect God's willingness to call....  Have we considered how such an action might have fundamentally altered Elder Oaks?  Such an alteration in the nature of the man could have all kinds of later impacts.

 

I'm not sure I buy this as a broad principle -- though it may be accurate in this case (which might be why he was inspired to not act).

 

In principle, however, all things may act for our good, including the horrors of war and killing, if we turn to the Lord (once more, see all the prophets and righteous leaders in ancient times that killed others).

 

I certainly accept that Elder Oaks was not meant to act, was not meant to have that blood on his hands, etc. It doesn't translate to me, however, that accordingly any potential leader of the church must not have self-defense blood on their hands, or that the change that comes from such really has much meaning if one remains faithful.

[estradling75]

I'm not sure I buy this as a broad principle -- though it may be accurate in this case (which might be why he was inspired to not act).

 

In principle, however, all things may act for our good, including the horrors of war and killing, if we turn to the Lord (once more, see all the prophets and righteous leaders in ancient times that killed others).

 

I certainly accept that Elder Oaks was not meant to act, was not meant to have that blood on his hands, etc. It doesn't translate to me, however, that accordingly any potential leader of the church must not have self-defense blood on their hands, or that the change that comes from such really has much meaning if one remains faithful.

 

It depends on how broad you are trying to apply it...  I think it is safe to say the first time you kill someone it will alter you.  I don't say this alteration is necessarily bad (although it could be).  In the limited case of Elder Oaks it seems like the Lord was working to prevent that alteration.  That does not mean all cases are like Elder Oaks.

[Vort]

So you do not believe any spiritual growth could come of such an action.

 

You are wrong.

 

mirkwood, you keep asking questions and making assertions, but you have yet to answer anything. I understand that you're very smug in thinking you know all truth, but conversation requires give and take.

 

Beyond protecting self and others, what spiritual benefit derives from killing a man?

[mirkwood]

 I understand that you're very smug in thinking you know all truth, but conversation requires give and take.

 

 

 

 

Pot kettle?  I like you vort, but this is a common theme with you.

Edited October 30, 2015 by mirkwood

[mirkwood]

How do you quantify an individuals spiritual growth?  What may affect one person may not affect another.  I know people who have gone through significant spiritual growth after such incidents.  How about Nephi?  Mormon, Moroni, Ammon?  Seriously Vort?

[Vort]

Pot kettle?  I like you vort, but this is a common theme with you.

 

Nice ad hominem. (And I like you, too, but that is not the point.) Please just answer the question. Beyond protecting self and others, what spiritual benefit derives from killing a man?

 

How do you quantify an individuals spiritual growth?  What may affect one person may not affect another.  I know people who have gone through significant spiritual growth after such incidents.  How about Nephi?  Mormon, Moroni, Ammon?  Seriously Vort?

 

Please just answer the question. Beyond protecting self and others, what spiritual benefit derives from killing a man?

Edited October 30, 2015 by Vort

[Blackmarch]

Which is an entirely different issue than what I find odd -- which is that Elder Oaks couldn't have been called to the twelve if he'd ever been involved in some sort of self-defensive violence.

I wouldn't know anything about a person not being able to be called to the twelve just for defending themselves... if that in itself is a requirement then I'd find that odd too (and don't know of that requirement).

I can see such being a hurdle but not an impossible one.

[mirkwood]

Nice ad hominem. (And I like you, too, but that is not the point.)

 

 

And this was not?

 

 

I understand that you're very smug in thinking you know all truth, but conversation requires give and take.

 

[Vort]

mirkwood, please. Just answer the question. Beyond protecting self and others, what spiritual benefit derives from killing a man?

[mirkwood]

 

 

 

Please just answer the question. Beyond protecting self and others, what spiritual benefit derives from killing a man?

 

 

A greater understanding of mercy?  Humility?  A greater closeness to the Holy Ghost?  An greater understanding of the atonement.  The list could go on an on. 

[Vort]

So you honestly believe that killing a human being teaches you mercy and humility, draws you closer to the Holy Ghost, and makes you understand the atonement better?

 

I suppose it's best just to let your statement stand and allow those reading to judge for themselves how reasonable it is.

[The Folk Prophet]

Mirkwood's view seems reasonable as a 'could'. Certainly not as a would. But it strikes me that for most good people, killing would be a huge trial, and trials, if one humbles themselves, do indeed have the potential for great spiritual growth.

[mirkwood]

Mirkwood's view seems reasonable as a 'could'. Certainly not as a would. But it strikes me that for most good people, killing would be a huge trial, and trials, if one humbles themselves, do indeed have the potential for great spiritual growth.

 

 

Ding ding ding...and the winner is.