Treatment of Anti-Mormons on this Forum

[Guest]

I'm 26.

 

Let's be more precise.  You're a 26-year-old, wide-eyed, Nordic (or is at Slavic?) woman.

[Vort]

Let's be more precise.  You're a 26-year-old, wide-eyed, Nordic (or is at Slavic?) woman.

 

Icelandic, thankyewverruhmuch.

[pam]

As an outsider of the recent conversations but one who has participated in similar ones in the past, my perspective may be a bit different. Can people give these guys the benefit of the doubt and be more careful in their wording when responding to these types of people—absolutely. And even when, like the recent poster, they chose only to reply to the slightly more aggressive or not so carefully worded responders and ignore everything else, things can be turned around. I had the great privilege of participating in a thread where that was able to happen.

 

That being said, there is the other side of the equation. The person reading a post needs to also be very careful in how they read it. Are they themselves bringing in too much of their own emotion and reading it into what everyone else says? Are they assuming something about the poster based on a phrase or wording that rubbed them the wrong way? We have to be very careful in reading others posts that we are not bringing in such assumptions and sensitivities that we are “reading between the lines” things that are not there.

 

I feel like I’m wording this very awkwardly, but I hope y’all understand what I’m trying to say. It’s a very fine line between poster and reader, and it’s not always clear where the fault lies. We can all do better in how we play each part.

 

I totally agree with you Connie.

 

I think people are far too rude to those posing questions on this site.  It's automatically assumed in many cases that the person is an anti.  I've been guilty of it myself in the past but have really worked on the softer side.

 

But it just makes me angry at some of the comments.  And I'm sorry to say..but some are from moderators as well.

[Guest Godless]

 

 

Now comes another word to define:  Anti-religion vs. Anti-theist.  There are many who believe in God but refuse to accept the idea of organized religion  or even a formal "set of beliefs" that are His.

 

I would argue that many "militant" non-believers are more anti-religion than anti-theist. Many of us have no desire to tear down anyone's faith. We just see a lot wrong with the institutions of religion (in general) and aren't afraid to point it out from time to time. I think our image problem is a result of two things: 1) Some of our most vocal members are, in fact, anti-theist, but don't necessarily represent a majority of us, and 2) It's very hard to scrutinize religion without making it look like an attack on the religious. Religious beliefs are very personal, and try as we might not to, it's very likely that we're going to step on some toes in our attempt to voice our objections to religion.

[The Folk Prophet]

I would argue that many "militant" non-believers are more anti-religion than anti-theist. Many of us have no desire to tear down anyone's faith. We just see a lot wrong with the institutions of religion (in general) and aren't afraid to point it out from time to time. I think our image problem is a result of two things: 1) Some of our most vocal members are, in fact, anti-theist, but don't necessarily represent a majority of us, and 2) It's very hard to scrutinize religion without making it look like an attack on the religious. Religious beliefs are very personal, and try as we might not to, it's very likely that we're going to step on some toes in our attempt to voice our objections to religion.

 

This makes little sense to me. I have no desire to tear down your faith, but let me just point out everything that's wrong and stupid about it. But it's not an attack...just an explanation of why it sucks and everything about it is backwards and wrong...and I'm not trying to step on any toes...but clearly anyone who believes such nonsense is an idiot (which I didn't say...but come one...obviously)... but you go on believing in your moronic myths. I'm not anti-you...just everything you believe in.

 

The simple fact is that anti is anti. I'm anti-anti-religion. I own it. I can't understand those who are anti-something who won't own it.

[Guest Godless]

This makes little sense to me. I have no desire to tear down your faith, but let me just point out everything that's wrong and stupid about it. But it's not an attack...just an explanation of why it sucks and everything about it is backwards and wrong...and I'm not trying to step on any toes...but clearly anyone who believes such nonsense is an idiot (which I didn't say...but come one...obviously)... but you go on believing in your moronic myths.

 

 

Well, when you put it that way, you just make me sound like a jerk. 

 

My personal approach isn't so much attacking as trying to explain the way I view things, and in many cases trying to understand why theists believe the way they do. I did a lot of this in my early years as an agnostic/atheist having just exited Mormonism and not really understanding mainstream Christian concepts like grace and the Trinity (neither of which I still fully understand). It's hard to explain one's issues with theism without offending the theists, but it's not impossible. I've had plenty of discussions on this site and elsewhere that I feel were very enlightening for all parties involved. 

 

 I'm not anti-you...just everything you believe in.

 

Sometimes it's a wonder that I still have a tongue given how often I have to bite it. And I do so out of respect for the individuals, not their beliefs. I may not understand/respect/like what you believe, but I won't flat out attack you for it. If I can find a respectful way to challenge your beliefs, then I will do so. Your missionaries are expected to do exactly that on practically a daily basis, are they not?

[The Folk Prophet]

Well, when you put it that way, you just make me sound like a jerk. 

 

Sorry. My intent was to put it into extreme terms speaking generally of anti-anything. We may not even think the word "stupid" because we are nice people...but the principle remains...we consider the concepts stupid, the thinking poor, the biases strong, etc...

 

Sometimes it's a wonder that I still have a tongue given how often I have to bite it. And I do so out of respect for the individuals, not their beliefs. I may not understand/respect/like what you believe, but I won't flat out attack you for it. If I can find a respectful way to challenge your beliefs, then I will do so. Your missionaries are expected to do exactly that on practically a daily basis, are they not?

 

I can respect that. But what I'm questioning is the whole "I'm not anti-fill-in-the-blank" cries of so many who so obviously are.

 

You seem to have equated being anti-theist with being rude. I do not think that's what qualifies it. I believe that standing against the core of what another believes makes one anti-that-person even if they're kind about it. That is my point behind saying, "I'm not anti-you...just everything you believe in."

[Bini]

 

 

So, when you say you are "opposed" to anything religious, are you saying you personally don't believe any of it (maybe even think it's stupid, ignorant, and foolish)?  Or do you think it is evil and must be destroyed?

 

I personally don't believe religion comes from a divine being or beings. I believe it has evolved from man. I choose not to live by those confinements but will continue to remain civil to those that do. As for your latter question, while I don't think religion is "evil", there are certain stances and teachings I feel are wrong...in my gut...that no divine being would ever support. (At least, a merciful one.) I won't get into a list of what those things are, as I'm not interested in arguing sides. I am perfectly fine traveling my own path with or without others traveling the same one.

[Guest MormonGator]

I personally don't believe religion comes from a divine being or beings. I believe it has evolved from man. I choose not to live by those confinements but will continue to remain civil to those that do. As for your latter question, while I don't think religion is "evil", there are certain stances and teachings I feel are wrong...in my gut...that no divine being would ever support. (At least, a merciful one.) I won't get into a list of what those things are, as I'm not interested in arguing sides. I am perfectly fine traveling my own path with or without others traveling the same one.

Bini-speaking as a former agnostic (I don't believe in atheism. You can't prove something doesn't exists, sorry) I sort of agree. I found most religious people to be really nice, but I didn't believe in their values. 

I began to question not only the belief in God, but I began to doubt my own agnosticism though. My personal view is "If there really is no God, then whoever created God is among the cruelest people in the world. " It's a sick, sick joke on us poor humans if we go through the suffering in life and that's it. I'm cynical and nihilistic, but not that bad!

 90% of people who have lived believe in some type of God, and while I'm an arrogant guy, I'm no so arrogant to say they are wrong and I am right. 

But I have to be honest-I have my moments of incredible doubt too. 

Just saying. Nothing but respect for you or your beliefs.

Edited November 3, 2015 by MormonGator

[Bini]

My personal view is "If there really is no God, then whoever created God is among the cruelest people in the world. " It's a sick, sick joke on us poor humans if we go through the suffering in life and that's it. I'm cynical and nihilistic, but not that bad!

 

See, I don't think of it that way. I think religion (god and gods) is created out of hoping for more and looking for answers, not out of cruelty or intending to mislead people, though, there are groups that do take advantage of those who are down and out on their luck.

[Guest MormonGator]

See, I don't think of it that way. I think religion (god and gods) is created out of hoping for more and looking for answers, not out of cruelty or intending to mislead people, though, there are groups that do take advantage of those who are down and out on their luck.

 For the record Bini? I have nothing but respect for that way of thinking. I admire anyone who stands up for their beliefs, even if I disagree. Sorry if I offended you. You make a lot of sense, even though I disagree. 

My brother is a HUGE atheist and we swap books all the time. I gave the BoM and he gives me books by Sam Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins. We read both, have wonderful discussions, beat each other up (we are brothers, after all) and remain incredibly close. 

Just don't beat me up me please. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest]

I personally don't believe religion comes from a divine being or beings. I believe it has evolved from man. I choose not to live by those confinements but will continue to remain civil to those that do. As for your latter question, while I don't think religion is "evil", there are certain stances and teachings I feel are wrong...in my gut...that no divine being would ever support. (At least, a merciful one.) I won't get into a list of what those things are, as I'm not interested in arguing sides. I am perfectly fine traveling my own path with or without others traveling the same one.

 

I asked the question because you began questioning the prefix "anti-".  The question was intended to direct the semantics of your post.  You've answered it.  And thus, have proven my point.

[Connie]

I totally agree with you Connie.

 

I think people are far too rude to those posing questions on this site.  It's automatically assumed in many cases that the person is an anti.  I've been guilty of it myself in the past but have really worked on the softer side.

 

But it just makes me angry at some of the comments.  And I'm sorry to say..but some are from moderators as well.

 

For my part, again as an outsider looking in, I was really confused at times when this poster kept accusing others of rudeness and attacks. I didn’t read most of them that way at all, but I can appreciate that he felt that way about them and I’m sure there were some that maybe were (I wasn’t giving these threads the most careful of readings). That’s why I was concerned that maybe he was reading some things into it that weren’t really there.  But, yes, it’s always a good idea to give people the benefit of the doubt and utilize that in responding. I just think we need to not only be more kind in posting but also more kind in reading and give others the benefit of the doubt when reading their comments.

[Bini]

 For the record Bini? I have nothing but respect for that way of thinking. I admire anyone who stands up for their beliefs, even if I disagree. Sorry if I offended you. You make a lot of sense, even though I disagree. 

My brother is a HUGE atheist and we swap books all the time. I gave the BoM and he gives me books by Sam Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins. We read both, have wonderful discussions, beat each other up (we are brothers, after all) and remain incredibly close. 

Just don't beat me up me please. 

 

Haha! I have no intentions of beating anyone up! I will say you have a lot more patience than me, though. :) I don't have the energy to get into debates with my Mormon family members, it's not that important to me, and not worth my time. Then again, I'm not a reader... I may watch a TV series though

[Backroads]

For my part, again as an outsider looking in, I was really confused at times when this poster kept accusing others of rudeness and attacks. I didn’t read most of them that way at all, but I can appreciate that he felt that way about them and I’m sure there were some that maybe were (I wasn’t giving these threads the most careful of readings). That’s why I was concerned that maybe he was reading some things into it that weren’t really there. But, yes, it’s always a good idea to give people the benefit of the doubt and utilize that in responding. I just think we need to not only be more kind in posting but also more kind in reading and give others the benefit of the doubt when reading their comments.

I finally read a few of those threads. I agree the questions seemed needlessly obvious for one of true curiosity. I saw some unnecessary rudeness in replies, but for the most part they were but the usual personalities we have about here.

But if you're not used to the personalities, things can come off worse than the truth.

Best foot forward and first impressions and all.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Backroads

[Guest]

Meh...what makes one "old" on the forum? Relative to many I'm a youngster. But for a year (when I had the time) I posted a LOT! Nowadays my posting frequency has diminished due to time constraints.

 

So... this is the "diminished" frequency?   

[The Folk Prophet]

So... this is the "diminished" frequency?   

 

Oh yeah. Only third on the top posters for the day?

 

http://lds.net/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=stats

 

Six months ago or so, top poster every day.

 

I'll admit though, I posted more today than I have been. I wasn't feeling well and so I took more down time than I have been.

[spamlds]

As I said in the thread in question, I spent several years running a site that studied anti-Mormonism.  I learned some interesting things about the phenomenon that you might find surprising.

 

We tend to think of them as hostile atheists or wary members of "competing" Christian sects (yes, they regard it as competing for souls).  Sometimes they are former members with an axe to grind--the "left the Church but can't leave it alone types."  However, very few people understand that there is an industry associated with anti-Mormonism.  They actually refer to it as the counter-cult industry.

 

There are approximately 800 "parachurches" or "ministries" that publish, distribute, and disseminate anti-Mormon media in the United States.  Most of these are for-profit enterprises.  Very few of them are associated with Christian denominations. They operate outside the denominational structure and provide "plausible deniability" to the denominations.  The individual churches within the denominations will hire these people to come in and speak or they purchase media (pamphlets, DVDs, etc.) and distribute them to their members.  They also organize protests at temple open houses, dedicatory services, and at LDS pageants.

 

One large megachurch in Texas shows the anti-Mormon film "The Godmakers" every school semester to their youth to "inoculate" from the positive contacts they might have with LDS youth in their schools.  Churches often host "cult awareness" seminars where they present misleading information about the LDS Church and train people specifically how to counter the Spirit that accompanies LDS missionaries.  They teach, "Yes you MAY feel something" from the Mormon elders, but don't trust your feelings.  The person who posted the recent "anti" threads was probably someone who had been to a seminar and learned some specific topics to post and how to approach it in the manner in which he did.

 

One anti-Mormon ministry in Arizona distributed almost 30,000 anti-Mormon DVDs that were cleverly designed with cover art that looked like LDS DVDs published by the Church.  The graphics, fonts, color schemes, intentionally tried to mimic ours.  These DVDs were connected by the police to several instances of anti-Mormon violence that occurred in Arizona.

 

An interesting bit of research I did turned up an interesting connection with this particular Arizona ministry.  I found a web site called African Ex-Mormons for Jesus and I looked up its public Internet WHOIS info.  The address linked it back to this same ministry, through a front business in Canada.

 

There was a huge effort by anti-Mormons near Mukilteo, Washington in October 2010 that led to arson that burned down a LDS meetinghouse.  (See http://www.ksl.com/?sid=12848130).  When the meetinghouse was rebuilt and about to be rededicated, vandals defaced the brand new meetinghouse with graffiti.  

 

Also in the Northwest US in 2010, another LDS meeting house was vandalized in West Linn, Oregon.  There was also an incident in West Linn where the school library was trashed and vandalized.  On the librarian's desk was found a Book of Mormon with a knife stabbed into it.  The librarian was LDS.  I tracked anti-Mormon incidents for several years and watched, as the "Mormon Moment" was growing in the media, so did the incidents of violence against Mormons.  

 

Much of the anti-Mormon fervor in the Northwest was stirred up by a for-profit anti-Mormon ministry in Vancouver.  We researched their "business" and discovered they were operating without a business licence, an expired corporate charter, and their main office was a shabby, run-down apartment in a bad part of town.  These guys pretend to be a not-for-profit and solicit donations.

 

Many anti-Mormons have academic credentials from degree mills.  The only times we confronted these folks is when they tried to make their credentials the basis of their arguments.  I was threatened with lawsuits on a number of times when we exposed their fake masters' degrees in "Biblical Studies."

 

On a couple of occasions, I discovered that Christian anti-Mormons would meet on public forums like Reddit to coordinate with atheist anti-Mormons to attack the Church.  

 

At the end of my work studying the anti-Mormon phenomenon, I was developing evidence to show that there is coordination among these groups to develop an anti-Mormon calendar.  You can track their publications statistically and show that they will release certain topics to the media and to popular Internet forums on a schedule.  For example, in March-April (close to Passover), you'll see the articles about Mormons doing proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims.  In September, they'll bring up the Mountain Meadows Massacre (which also occurred on 9/11--a date they hang onto for effect).  When Nielsen is doing the ratings sweeps, there are always pubs on polygamy.  

 

I could go on and on, but my point is that anti-Mormonism is bigger than you think.  It is not just misinformed people who mean well and want to save us.  They are organized.  They make money doing it.  They organize to dominate discussions on Facebook, Reddit, and comment sections on various blogs.  One anti-Mormon keeps a constant anti thread going on a discussion group that is about mixed martial arts!  Another lady runs an anti-Mormon site that is set up to look like a cooking blog.  Some work together to re-write Wikipedia posts that offer correct info about the Church and change it to false info.  

 

Finally, before I end this long-winded post, Mormon social media sites like this should use Rush Limbaugh's philosophy.  When he was criticized for not allowing critics equal time on his program, he said, "I AM equal time!"  In other words, there's a huge Internet out there.  There are thousands of anti-Mormon groups that are working to pull us down.  They don't need any more free space to post their lies.  When they come here, the mods do a great job shutting them down.  It only takes a 140-character "tweet" to insinuate doubt.  It takes thousands of words to defend the right sometimes.  If they are allowed to overtake a forum, they will run off the faithful who don't desire to have contention be a part of their lives.  The anti-Mormons know this and exploit it.  Sometimes we have to be blunt with them and stand our ground with faith and good humor.  Martin Luther said once, "The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn.”

 

That advice served me well in the years I studied anti-Mormons and their tactics.

Edited November 6, 2015 by spamlds