Wisdom is sorrow: Time so say goodbye.

[Byron]

Hello again. I want to thank everyone for the insight concerning my questions. I learned a lot from many of you and have begun researching the bible again for further answers.

 

I would like to take this time to comment on the experience.

 

I truly tried to ask my questions sincerely. And though some of you responded in kind, many of you seemed quite confrontational. Yes my beliefs differ but I only eluded to these once I was asked.

Yet many of you saw my questions as insulting assertions, or libelous accusation. Some of you even went so far as to attack certain doctrines of the Lutheran Church or made assumptions about my intent or character. I found myself wondering why: Did you confront me because you are so zealous about your beliefs that you see an enemy where there is none? Or, were you just looking for an extreme response in an attempt to discredit your assumptions about me, my intent, or my faith?

 

But the only response I gave was to ask more questions and that seemed to anger some of you further.

 

It saddens me that we cannot question one another without feeling judged or condemned. Even more so that we seek to attack one another over perceived slights. But as a pastor once told me, "It is a guilty heart that is angered by a question."

 

I wanted to ask more questions but this is your house and I am just a guest. So I will take away what I have learned here and pray to God for the wisdom and grace needed to not view anyone as my enemy. I believe God wants us to come together in worship of him and not separate thus making easy work for the true enemy.

 

I will also pray for you all; so that should another come asking similar questions, that you find the peace in your own hearts to not lash out at perceived insult. I also hope that my words here rest in your hearts in order to bring us all together in tolerance and understanding and above all worship of God.

 

Thank you for your time,

 

God bless!

 

For those of you who would like to continue to develop a fellowship or simply to say hello, please contact me at [email protected] I love making new friends.

[Guest]

 

 

 "It is a guilty heart that is angered by a question."

 

Oh, that's in the Book of Mormon. 1 Nephi chapter 16: 

 

 

 2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for itcutteth them to the very center.

 3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

 

Perspective is funny, because I think most here would say that you threw out a lot of things at once and weren't willing to have an actual back-and-forth discussion about what you were saying. I can understand that you probably felt overwhelmed that we were as prepared as we were for your questions.

At any rate, the quote I have had in my mind comes from another minister by the name of Matthew Henry: "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Edited November 3, 2015 by Eowyn

[Crypto]

Hello again. I want to thank everyone for the insight concerning my questions. I learned a lot from many of you and have begun researching the bible again for further answers.

 

I would like to take this time to comment on the experience.

 

I truly tried to ask my questions sincerely. And though some of you responded in kind, many of you seemed quite confrontational. Yes my beliefs differ but I only eluded to these once I was asked.

Yet many of you saw my questions as insulting assertions, or libelous accusation. Some of you even went so far as to attack certain doctrines of the Lutheran Church or made assumptions about my intent or character. I found myself wondering why: Did you confront me because you are so zealous about your beliefs that you see an enemy where there is none? Or, were you just looking for an extreme response in an attempt to discredit your assumptions about me, my intent, or my faith?

 

But the only response I gave was to ask more questions and that seemed to anger some of you further.

 

It saddens me that we cannot question one another without feeling judged or condemned. Even more so that we seek to attack one another over perceived slights. But as a pastor once told me, "It is a guilty heart that is angered by a question."

 

I wanted to ask more questions but this is your house and I am just a guest. So I will take away what I have learned here and pray to God for the wisdom and grace needed to not view anyone as my enemy. I believe God wants us to come together in worship of him and not separate thus making easy work for the true enemy.

 

I will also pray for you all; so that should another come asking similar questions, that you find the peace in your own hearts to not lash out at perceived insult. I also hope that my words here rest in your hearts in order to bring us all together in tolerance and understanding and above all worship of God.

 

Thank you for your time,

 

God bless!

 

For those of you who would like to continue to develop a fellowship or simply to say hello, please contact me at [email protected] I love making new friends.

It was alluded to by other posters, but the posting style of your first post, and many of the other questions you asked were nearly word for word 'got you' type questions that posters who seek conflict with our church post. It has happened here before so even if they were genuinely asked it tends to provoke a very defensive posture from many people. No one likes what they see as pitchforks and torches coming to their own home. 

Good wishes to you and your study!

Edited November 3, 2015 by Crypto

[jerome1232]

Good bye Byron. 

[Jamie123]

I think I agree with Eowyn: you need to understand the other person's worldview (*) before you can really ask questions and understand the answers. Otherwise you just end up arguing with them on cross purposes.

 

James White (of Phoenix Arizona) for example says that Mormonism has no meaningful doctrine of Grace. And his arguments make perfect sense - so long as the only "doctrine of Grace" you understand is that espoused by the Reformed Baptists. Other evangelicals rubbish Mormonism by suggesting that Mormons think they can put God in their debt - an idea which they claim is nonsensical. And it is certainly is nonsensical in the absolute sense. But what about within the context of a covenant whose very existence is an act of Grace on the part of God?

 

I remember once talking to an Anglican colleague (who knew nothing of Mormonism) about how the Mormons baptize for the dead: he said the idea was ridiculous because dead people don't have agency. I asked him how he knew this and he didn't have a reason: he just knew that they didn't. It was an assumption he had always had and never questioned.

 

And some Mormons do the exact same thing. A few years ago I had this conversation with some Elders at my door:

 

Elder: You do know, don't you, that we are the true restored Church of Jesus Christ? [A ridiculous question to ask a non-member: if I did know that I would already be a Mormon.]

 

Me: I know that's what you believe.

 

Elder: We don't just believe it. We know it! [Another stupid thing to say: demanding the other person accept a-priori that you're right is no way to start a cross-faith discussion. It's just a conversation-stopper.]

 

Me: (Silence)

 

Elder (realizing his mistake and trying to rescue the situation): Do you believe that the Church of England is the True Church of Jesus Christ?

 

Me: No. I don't.

 

Elder: (genuinely surprised) You don't?

 

Me: No. The True Church of Jesus Christ is invisible.

 

Then came some bluster about "Did Jesus Christ found an invisible church?" but you could tell they were floundering. They had not been expecting me to say "no". If I had said "yes" there would doubtless have been a lot of "gotcha" points about Henry VIII's unsuitability as a Church-Founder and Prophet. But those would only have worked if I had held the same sort of ideas about the C of E as they held about the Mormon Church.

 

Yes...yes...I know I'm speculating about what these two young men were thinking, but I reckon I'm not too far off the truth. My real point is that you need to think outside the box: the sort of "gotcha" questions that Eowyn mentioned are usually rooted in the asker's worldview and are either unanswerable, or else a truthful answer would not be meaningful to the one who asked it.

 

(*) I think I should rephrase that a bit: you don't necessarily need to understand the other person's worldview; you need to be open to having your own worldview challenged. I apologise: that is an important distinction.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Jamie123

[Guest]

What I learned was that

 

1) If you respond to anti-Mormons with offense, anger, or hatred, they will ignore any arguments you make and just remember the hate.

2) If you give well thought out responses that are perfectly logical, they will ignore them.

3) If you have a weak argument, they will pounce all over you.

4) If you tell them just what anti-Mormons do all the time, they will do everything in their power to NOT do those things.  But when they can't get anything more out of the dialogue without doing so, they will give up and leave.

5) Anti-Mormons will refuse to look at anything that might threaten their world view because they know how weak their position is.

6) They are willing to jump at anything that feels anti-Mormonish no matter how ridiculous it is .

7) They will ask all sorts of questions without bothering to respond to any of yours.

[pam]

I'm very sorry that people were not more kind to you here. That certainly isn't the purpose of this site nor the wishes of those that own this site.

 

I wish you the best.

[Vort]

[Jamie123]

 

Injuries from defective whoopee cushions? I can honestly say I never thought of that before!

[mirkwood]

I can understand that you probably felt overwhelmed that we were as prepared as we were for your questions.

 

 

 

I find this to be a recurring theme with the anti-Mormon crowd, particularly on message boards/forums. 

[Guest MormonGator]

I find this to be a recurring theme with the anti-Mormon crowd, particularly on message boards/forums. 

 Yes. I was a former anti though I didn't really make it known. I just quietly thought what I thought and only occasionally would ask questions. But looking back, my questions were sort of snotty and obnoxious. So was my tone. I thought I already knew the answers, they weren't asked in good faith (for the most part).  Eventually I found out that "Hey, if I ask in good faith, 99% of the questions have answers." Someone also said I should read Richard Bushman. That was huge too, in all honesty. 

 

I'm sure others ask in good faith, and I'm also guaranteeing you that some don't. 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but it is a two way street as well. If you want fair, polite answers, don't take advantage of the natural kindness, compassion and warmth that 99% of LDS have. Like I have always said, most LDS are such wonderful people that they can let themselves be taken advantage of or they assume everyone is as wonderful as they are. 

And for the record, wisdom in beauty, not sorrow. Not even close. When you humble yourself and realize that you don't have all the answers you begin to learn an incredible amount.  I am one of the most arrogant man alive, and if I can humble myself I'm sure everyone can. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by MormonGator

[prisonchaplain]

Iron sharpens iron.  Despite whatever imperfections your experience here might have included, I pray that all of us will be "sharper" for the time we spent together.