Constitution Hanging by a Thread Fulfilled?

[Still_Small_Voice]

Liberals tend to support the twisted version of the first amendment, and conservatives tend to support the twisted version of the second amendment.

 

What is a twisted version of the Second Amendment?  From what I see conservatives supporting over the years is the right of the people to keep and bear firearms for protection.  

 

As long as we live in a telestial fallen world we should have training to protect ourselves and have the means to do so.

[Guest]

"I'm not gonna do it cuz no one else is doing it."

 

Look at it this way.  "I'm not going to be a Mormon because it's such a small percentage of people in the world, how much good can they do?"

[LeSellers]

What is a twisted version of the Second Amendment?  From what I see conservatives supporting over the years is the right of the people to keep and bear firearms for protection.

One twisted version is that the "keep'n'bear arms" clause depends on the dependent clause "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state", such that only those who are members of the militia may keep'n'bear.

A second twisted version is that the "keep'n'bear" clause has no concomitant responsibility to form and train as militia.

Yes, we all have (even us who are not required or capable of joining one) the personal right to keep'n'bear. But, unless unqualified by age or physical capacity we also have the duty to be the militia.

The part "necessary to the security of a free state" keeps getting ignored, and thus, the right-wing interpretation of the II is twisted. (Less twisted, I believe, than the left's perverted ignorant version.)

 

As long as we live in a telestial fallen world we should have training to protect ourselves and have the means to do so.

Indeed, it is not merely a right, it is a duty. If one cannot protect himself, he is equally unable to protect his stewardship. Failure to protect (or at least attempt) his children, his wife, and his friends is a sin.

Lehi

[Blackmarch]

What is a twisted version of the Second Amendment?  From what I see conservatives supporting over the years is the right of the people to keep and bear firearms for protection.  

 

As long as we live in a telestial fallen world we should have training to protect ourselves and have the means to do so.

the part about forming a well regulated militia as part of the clause for bearing arms is often neglected and ignored to the point of where it has become meaningless and even where civilian militias do form they often fail at being well regulated, and certainly nothing of that nature has happened at the national level- where it should be happening. IF it did that arms and military economics could be better unified, regulated, tracked and dealt with(or it and the membership can be held with responsibilities and duties and etc.. that go with such)- and that could be done almost completely on the civilian side with little to none connection to the government if it was set up right. However I'd wager the that opportunity to bring something of that sort of thing about are likely past.. or if not it would take a much greater effort these days to accomplish than in days past.

A problem would be keeping it from being absorbed into the government.

Edit: le sellers beat me to the point.

Also we rarely get enough training outside the military/police venues to actually be able to deal with a situation where arms would be an absolute necessity. (such as preparing for organized offensives rather than just spontaneous events).

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Blackmarch

[Vort]

Pretty sure that in late 18th-century America, "militia" referred to the collection of able-bodied male citizens of fighting age, between about 16 and 45. So "a well-regulated militia" may not have referred to citizen armies of any type, but rather just the men themselves, who needed to be familiar with firearms to be "well-regulated".

[Blackmarch]

Pretty sure that in late 18th-century America, "militia" referred to the collection of able-bodied male citizens of fighting age, between about 16 and 45. So "a well-regulated militia" may not have referred to citizen armies of any type, but rather just the men themselves, who needed to be familiar with firearms to be "well-regulated".

there were some that felt that the able citizenry itself was the militia... however considering the much debate and argument over what should be stated and how it (the articles of the constitution) should be stated (even down to where the punctuation should go and what kind of punctuation it should be)  in the articles of the constitution and that the second amendment  states both a militia and also the people (rather than just one or the other), and does not state them to be one and the same thing says to me that that isn't presumption upon which it is built.

altho this idea definitely has influence upon some of the supreme court intrepretations since the drafting of the constitution.

[Still_Small_Voice]

The Bill of Rights had to do with individual citizens rights.  Some people interpret the Second Amendment as giving power to the government to form an army.  This is incorrect.

 

Standing armies in a time a peace were viewed by the Founders of America as dangerous to liberty.  An armed citizenry of the common people that were well trained and armed would be a hedge against tyrants.  The view was militia would be well regulated by the common people to prevent it from abusing the people.

 

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." -- Samuel Adams

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."  -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason

 

 

[mdfxdb]

This:

 

 

Standing armies in a time a peace were viewed by the Founders of America as dangerous to liberty.  An armed citizenry of the common people that were well trained and armed would be a hedge against tyrants.  

 

History has demonstrated a need for a hedge against tyrants.

Edited December 2, 2015 by mdfxdb

[LeSellers]

Pretty sure that in late 18th-century America, "militia" referred to the collection of able-bodied male citizens of fighting age, between about 16 and 45. So "a well-regulated militia" may not have referred to citizen armies of any type, but rather just the men themselves, who needed to be familiar with firearms to be "well-regulated".

Here's what Webster said it meant in 1828:

Militia

MILI'TIA, noun [Latin from miles, a soldier; Gr. war, to fight, combat, contention. The primary sense of fighting is to strive, struggle, drive, or to strike, to beat, Eng. moil, Latin molior; Heb. to labor or toil.] The body of soldiers in a state enrolled for discipline, but not engaged in actual service except in emergencies; as distinguished from regular troops, whose sole occupation is war or military service. The militia of a country are the able bodied men organized into companies, regiments and brigades, with officers of all grades, and required by law to attend military exercises on certain days only, but at other times left to pursue their usual occupations.

Lehi

[Still_Small_Voice]

It is too bad that our country has gotten away from the spirit of the Second Amendment.  We keep firearms, but most have very little training on how to use them effectively.  Local communities should have organizations for emergency training on using their arms. 

 

I have over 64 hours of official training with firearm instructors.  About 32 hours of rifle training and over 37 hours of training with handguns.  If anyone is interested I can refer you to a good firearm training facility near Las Vegas, Nevada.

[mirkwood]

I will second the training at Front Sight. 

[Blackmarch]

The Bill of Rights had to do with individual citizens rights.  Some people interpret the Second Amendment as giving power to the government to form an army.  This is incorrect.

 

Standing armies in a time a peace were viewed by the Founders of America as dangerous to liberty.  An armed citizenry of the common people that were well trained and armed would be a hedge against tyrants.  The view was militia would be well regulated by the common people to prevent it from abusing the people.

 

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." -- Samuel Adams

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."  -- Thomas Jefferson

 

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason

I agree; the second amendment gives power to the civilians to form their own military for defense purposes which would be seperate from the government. It is not about the Gov forming a military.

[JojoBag]

Constitution Hanging by a Thread Fulfilled?

 

Nope not even close, to much gloom and doom guys we live in the greatest nation on earth. Things need to get much worse before we can say that this "prediction" is fulfilled. Let's face it, it's not doctrine just speculation.

 

Ok you can go back to digging your bomb shelter in your backyard now and hoarding ammo.

 

"The Lord delayeth his coming."  Do you realize that you just fulfilled prophecy? 

 

And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.

(Doctrine and Covenants 45:26)

[JojoBag]

they won't be nullified they'll be so twisted as not to be the original thing. and that has happened. Liberals tend to support the twisted version of the first amendment, and conservatives tend to support the twisted version of the second amendment.

however out of the two the one with graver consequences is the first.

 

How are conservatives twisting the Second Amendment?  Do you know your history regarding the statements by the founding fathers about the Second Amendment?  Let me give you a few quotes.

 

 

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

 

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

 

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

 

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."

- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

 

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."

- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

 

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."

- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

 

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

 

There are a lot of quotes out there.  I could fill up several pages of quotes by the Founding Fathers regarding how firearms are necessary to the protection of liberty.  Conservatives have not twisted anything regarding the Second Amendment.  It is liberals who twist everything about the Constitution to serve their socialist ends.

 

Oh, Btw, It isn't the First Amendment that protects the Second.  It is the Second Amendment that protects the first; in fact, it is the Second that protects the entire Constitution.

[Guest]

How are conservatives twisting the Second Amendment?  Do you know your history regarding the statements by the founding fathers about the Second Amendment?  Let me give you a few quotes.

 

 

There are a lot of quotes out there.  I could fill up several pages of quotes by the Founding Fathers regarding how firearms are necessary to the protection of liberty.  Conservatives have not twisted anything regarding the Second Amendment.  It is liberals who twist everything about the Constitution to serve their socialist ends.

 

Oh, Btw, It isn't the First Amendment that protects the Second.  It is the Second Amendment that protects the first; in fact, it is the Second that protects the entire Constitution.

 

 

LeSellers answered that here:

 

 

 

 

One twisted version is that the "keep'n'bear arms" clause depends on the dependent clause "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state", such that only those who are members of the militia may keep'n'bear.

A second twisted version is that the "keep'n'bear" clause has no concomitant responsibility to form and train as militia.

Yes, we all have (even us who are not required or capable of joining one) the personal right to keep'n'bear. But, unless unqualified by age or physical capacity we also have the duty to be the militia.

The part "necessary to the security of a free state" keeps getting ignored, and thus, the right-wing interpretation of the II is twisted. (Less twisted, I believe, than the left's perverted ignorant version.)

 

Indeed, it is not merely a right, it is a duty. If one cannot protect himself, he is equally unable to protect his stewardship. Failure to protect (or at least attempt) his children, his wife, and his friends is a sin.

Lehi

[omegaseamaster75]

"The Lord delayeth his coming."  Do you realize that you just fulfilled prophecy? 

 

And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.

(Doctrine and Covenants 45:26)

No I didn't, I never said that the Lord is delaying his coming. Should me where I said that.

 

I also think that we should be prepared for disasters and such, but I'm not going to make it my hobby and run around freaking out about it.

 

We should prepare ourselves, but it should not be all consuming. 

[mirkwood]

Unless you chose to purchase a handgun other then Glock.  Then you should be running around and freaking out.  :)

[Guest MormonGator]

Unless you chose to purchase a handgun other then Glock.  Then you should be running around and freaking out.  :)

 Traitor. You said you liked the +5 Holy Avenger the best. 

[Guest]

Unless you chose to purchase a handgun other then Glock.  Then you should be running around and freaking out.  :)

 

I resemble that remark.  I'd take my Ruger over your Glock any day.

Or I could load up an AA12 with slugs.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[mordorbund]

I resemble that remark.  I'd take my Ruger over your Glock any day.

 

I could have told you that. There's no way you're getting Mirkwood's Glock. You could try prying it from his cold, dead hands but you'll quickly discover that's he's switched allegiance to the zombie horde. Also, you've been shot.

[kapikui]

Unless you chose to purchase a handgun other then Glock.  Then you should be running around and freaking out.  :)

Heathen.  The M1911 is the only TRUE pistol platform. 

[Guest]

I could have told you that. There's no way you're getting Mirkwood's Glock. You could try prying it from his cold, dead hands but you'll quickly discover that's he's switched allegiance to the zombie horde. Also, you've been shot.

 

Yeah, but I've been training to fight the zombie hoard.  (wait did I say that out loud?)  Well, if you are undead, you've been warned.

[mirkwood]

 Traitor. You said you liked the +5 Holy Avenger the best. 

 

Negative ghost rider...I said +5 Vorpal Sword.

[mirkwood]

I resemble that remark.  I'd take my Ruger over your Glock any day.

Or I could load up an AA12 with slugs.

 

 

I'll see your slugs and raise you .308...from 100+ yards....

[mirkwood]

I could have told you that. There's no way you're getting Mirkwood's Glock. You could try prying it from his cold, dead hands but you'll quickly discover that's he's switched allegiance to the zombie horde. Also, you've been shot.