just how much income is a person "supposed to have"?

[omegaseamaster75]

People still wear watches?

I do, so do most members of my family. The first presidency does and I suspect that you won't find a Timex, Seiko or Citizen on any of their wrists either. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by omegaseamaster75

[Backroads]

I just bought Husband a lovely dress watch for Christmas.

[NeuroTypical]

Something I want to bring back, if I can ever squeeze it out of the monthly budget:

 

I remember back before things got tight (read - we found recurring uses for all our discretionary income), one thing I loved to do, was be able to fund my wife's random charitable card swipes at random checkout counters.  Her favorites were soldiers and cops in line behind her at Chipotle or wherever.  It's amazing how quickly she was always able to create an ad-hoc conspiracy with the cashier, with just a few gestures and meaningful looks, and pay for the next guy along while still remaining anonymous.  I guess it makes a cashier's day to be able to say something like "No charge today - someone else took care of your bill", and then do a stone wall impersonation as the person tries to find out who paid.

Edited January 4, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

I'm not sure if the questions you asked can really be answered.  I also wonder if those are the appropriate questions to ask for what you are seeking.  You probably don't think you're asking this, but the underlying assumption is that it is "wrong" to have a certain level of money.  Get rid of the assumption and first ask "Is it wrong to be rich?".  And more importantly, "how on earth is anyone to judge?"

 

When talking about wealth, many talk about the camel through the eye of the needle thing.  The main scripture which I choose to look at is (Jacob 2: 18-19).  It essentially says how to make an honest buck with the Lord's help.  And if you can do it well, you can make a lot of honest bucks.  As long as you're doing it honestly and freely, you're really serving mankind.  So, make as many honest bucks as you can.

 

1) Obtain a hope in Christ.

2) Seek riches to do good.

......a) Clothe the naked.

......b) Feed the hungry.

......c) Liberate the captive.

......d) Relieve the sick and the afflicted.

3) Reinvest to do more good.  "Mormon" means "more good".

 

I don't take it literally that only those four items under #2 are all that are considered honest work.  But that kind of mindset is what is important.  I believe that as long as you provide a good or service that improves someone else's life through free-will exchange, then you are following this advice.  The alternative is to prey on people's vices or fears to make a buck.  If you choose the former, you're on good terms and there is no need to feel guilty about making money off of making life better for others.

 

There is nothing wrong with making money.  There is nothing wrong with having money.  And there isn't even anything wrong with having luxuries -- not even a car that starts up the AC with a key fob  :).  As long as you are honest in your dealings with your fellow men, and the way you hope to make money is through improving life for others, then make as much money as you want. It just means that you're providing a lot of good to the world.  

 

If you did it honestly, why feel guilty for having money yourself?  Why shame others for having money, if they did it honestly?  And who are we to judge whether they did it honestly or not?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

So, while I was sending out my Christmas packages at the post office, some really old looking guy who was wearing a veteran hat was behind me.  I was needing to tape up my box so I stepped aside to let him send his mail.  I was done taping up the box and he was digging into his pocket for his money and I became impatient and kinda felt bad for the guy moving so slowly to find his money and I just assumed he's a vet because of his hat so I felt inclined to do something nice so I asked the cashier how much is it for?  The cashier said $4.90 so I gave the cashier my card and told him to use it for the old man's stuff.  Well, the cashier thought I was asking how much for the book of stamps that the old guy got.  He actually got 4 of them which made the total almost $20!  He was already holding my card so I just told him to go ahead and swipe it anyway.  The old guy finally found his $20 and tried to give it to the cashier and the cashier gave it back to him saying the thing is already paid for and the guy thought he didn't give the cashier enough so he goes back to finding the rest of his money in his pockets.  It got confusing so I handed the cashier my box and walked off leaving the cashier to straighten it all out.

 

I was kinda worried I won't have enough money to buy my husband's present as we went on a tight cash budget this year.  And sure enough, I was short $15 for this electronic gadget so I ended up giving him pillows.

 

So, what I learned that day is.... it's awfully hard to be Santa Claus on a tight budget.

[NeedleinA]

My father always taught us...

 

"If the Lord can't trust you with a little money, why would he bless you with a lot"

 

Regardless of how much you have, I always try to remind myself, "What am I doing with the amount I have now?"

Tithing, generous fast offering, employed the needy, funding scouts, etc?

[Traveler]

As a general rule and with rare exception I believe that most individuals live and perform far below their abilities.  There are several reason but I believe the main reason is because most individuals work (perform) far below and are paid less and below their potential and abilities.  I believe, in part, too many people are lazy and settle for mediocrity.  On my mission I met a bishop that was very wealthy – but he only worked for 6 months out of the year.  His job??   He was a welder.   I was most puzzled in how a welder that only worked half the year could make over a hundred thousand a year (back in the 1960’s)????  When I asked him how he made so much money welding; he responded that he is the world’s best welder and only did jobs that no one else could do or would do because of the difficulty of doing the job.

 

I personally believe that when we choose a profession or life’s work we should plan to be a leading expert in our field of choice.  This comes from the influence of my father who taught me that whatever we are asked to do we should do more than what is needed or expected.  We should never do less than what is expected or needed.  The scripture backing to this concept is the commandment to be “anxiously engaged” in good causes and not to wait to be commanded and that we should magnify our callings.  I believe this doctrine applies to more than our church callings and assignments but to how to behave concerning or work ethic and habits in our chosen field of work.

 

My father, who is the wisest person I have ever met concerning such matters, said that when we are young and considering our life’s work that we should keep 3 things in mind:

 

#1.  What we really love and enjoy doing - perhaps even more than anything else.

#2.  What we do really really well – perhaps better than anything else

#3.  What we can do that will make a lot of money – perhaps more than anything else we can do.

 

Then he would say we should never settle for just one of the above and as a minimum we should satisfy two - but if we can line up all three we are indeed very lucky and should be thankful.

 

I am very lucky – mostly for a wise father that taught me in my youth – but we should never think that it is too late to improve our lot in life.  And for the ladies that are willing to assist their husbands in providing – do not settle for mediocrity – do something worthwhile.   And I believe that every lady (and individual) should plan and prepare a profession as best as they can.  If you ladies end up working from home – good for you – but everyone should be prepared and glad to work and be a benefit for their family and community.  Don’t be a minimum worker a producer – plan to maximize your contribution.

[Backroads]

Our discussion last night was quite broad. What started it was a question about what so and so's kid does... leading into "where do we all stand on the poor/rich spectrum and who decides these things?" And it went from there.

[estradling75]

Our discussion last night was quite broad. What started it was a question about what so and so's kid does... leading into "where do we all stand on the poor/rich spectrum and who decides these things?" And it went from there.

 

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/us/

 

Will give you the numbers....   Of course being numbers you can play with them.  Do you want to know the average per house hold? Or the average per person? Which state?  Those are just some of the questions that come to my mind on this subject

[Backroads]

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/us/

 

Will give you the numbers....   Of course being numbers you can play with them.  Do you want to know the average per house hold? Or the average per person? Which state?  Those are just some of the questions that come to my mind on this subject

 

According to those numbers Husband and I are doing pretty well (and we do live comfortably), though I confess we both work full-time.

[Guest MormonGator]

So if I work really, really hard I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor? I work hard. I enjoy nice things. 

Envy is also sinful, but no one seems to talk about that anymore. Some people get lucky in life and win the lottery. Some people get lucky in life and are adopted into nice circumstances.  If you don't like it, well maybe you are jealous or envious. Neither is a good quality.  

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

I don't think it's a bad thing to enjoy nice things, necessarily. Gator, if I have you pegged right, I'd also guess that you give generously where you see a need. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

People fall on hard times in spite of their best planning and preparation. Sometimes the hard time outlasts the preparation and you need help. If I've learned anything it's that I'm in no place to judge anyone's situation, because I don't know all of the ways they've fought to stay or get out of it, and I don't know everything that's happened that they couldn't control. I know not everyone fights and some play the system, but I prefer to treat everyone as if they are trying as hard as they can.  (Though it's really really hard not to judge someone having a 6th baby when they have to rely on welfare to maintain life). 

 

Money can be lost as easily as it can be made, whether you're from old money or you're "new" money (you know what they say... only new money talks about all their money and expensive things). The things of this world are fleeting. We should certainly prepare, save, live within our means, etc. But when our brothers and sisters fall on hard times, we should willingly give what we can to help them back up. 

 

I've been on both sides, and believe me, I'd much rather be on the self-sufficient, giving end. 

 

I couldn't have said it better, Eowyn.  Thanks.

[Guest MormonGator]

People still wear watches?

   My wife bought me a very nice Tag I wear on special occasions. I have a thing for nice watches. i own about five expensive watches.  Again, no apologies.

I drive a Ford Fiesta though, so it's all about the trade off. I go to nice restaurants and have them valet park it right near the really nice cars. Some of the valets can't drive a standard. Then I tip them. And they suddenly can. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest MormonGator]

I don't think it's a bad thing to enjoy nice things, necessarily. Gator, if I have you pegged right, I'd also guess that you give generously where you see a need. 

 Check your private messages.  :)

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

Once again, I shouldn't assume. Faramir has never been a watch-wearer, and in fact it's a stretch to get him to wear a wedding ring. He's just not an accessories kind of guy. Since I've had a cell phone, I've stopped wearing a watch. The batteries run out too darn fast and you can't recharge them. 

[bytor2112]

Earning sufficient for your needs today is all fine and dandy.....earning sufficient for your needs when you can no longer earn is necessity. Work, enjoy, give and save (invest.) Nothing wrong with passing out buggies at Walmart when you're old....unless you have to...

Edited January 4, 2016 by bytor2112

[Vort]

Since I've had a cell phone, I've stopped wearing a watch. The batteries run out too darn fast and you can't recharge them. 

 

About eight years ago I accompanied a Scout troop to Colorado Springs. While there, we visited a PX (the Scoutmaster was military) where I bought a watch for, I think, $5. Replaced the wristband when the original stunk so bad I couldn't stand it, but otherwise, t's still going strong. Don't think I've even replaced the battery.

[Guest MormonGator]

I think of money as an enabler... it opens up opportunity and choices. 

 Yup. Money gives you freedom but it doesn't change you. Money can't buy happiness. 

That said, I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is better, and people doing well have absolutely no right to complain. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

Being poor is surprisingly expensive and time consuming.

[spamlds]

I don't mean to toss a wrench in the machinery, but I have some notions that might lead to a different level of understanding.  As background, let me say that I've been dirt poor, lost a business, and struggled with finances for years.  I've also had periods of comfort and relative prosperity.  In the process, I learned some things.  I wrote a book about preparing to live in the united order.  

 

When it comes to money, it's a stewardship.  Our attitude about money largely determines whether we have enough or not.  Our attitude ultimately leads us to make decisions about sacrifice, giving, taking risk, availing ourselves of opportunities, etc.  Some people call it your "vision" for your life. 

 

Scriptures condemn "idlers."  D&C 42:42 says "Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer."  There are idle poor people who won't lift a finger to help themselves.  They take their bread and garments from those who labor for their own support.  Likewise, there are idle rich, who make their living exploiting the laborer, obtaining their bread and garments from those who work while they manipulate markets and use their money to influence lawmakers.  

 

If you're not an idler and, if you work with a vision of what you want to achieve, God will bring to pass spiritual creation in your life.  In other words, when we work with our "heart, might, mind, and strength," the goals we have in our minds will come to fruition in time.

 

"Heart"--our desires--is the most important factor because it influences all the others.  In the French version of the D&C, the word for "might" is pouvoir, which means "to be able."  It's opportunity.  Desire leads us to opportunity.  Then "mind" is our ability to visualize what we desiire.  Finally, "strength" is the actual labor we exert.  If we follow this pattern, we will be successful in achieving whatever desires we have.

 

When it comes to money, we need to realize that "...the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare..." (D&C 104:17).  The perception that we live in a finite world and universe is a telestial illusion.  From that illusion springs greed, envy, and all  sorts of other evils.

 

When it came to money, Jesus had what he needed, when he needed it.  He had the ability to perfectly envision what resources he needed and create them in perfection.  I believe he wants us to become like him in that regard, just like all of his other attributes.

 

Consider when Peter ran afoul of the tribute collectors in Capernaum, as recorded in Matthew 17.  They were collecting a tax that was used to maintain the temple.  The collectors asked Peter if Jesus paid the tribute.  He answered that Jesus did.  Then Jesus called him on it.  Should the Lord, to whom the temple was built to honor, pay a tribute to his own house?  Peter realized the quandary he had put his Master in.  To rectify the situation, Jesus sent him fishing.  He told Peter to look in the mouth of the first fish he'd catch and there would be money.  The money would be a sufficient amount to pay the tribute.  As for the collectors, they'd have no quarrel with Jesus and Peter would know that the money had been provided by miraculous means.

 

I ponder that passage frequently.  It shows that Jesus had the ability to respond to a need, envision a solution, and manifest it with sufficient power as to make it almost instantaneous.  That's what a Creator does.  That's one of the things we're supposed to learn.

 

Now, Jesus didn't live in luxury on earth.  He suffered fatigue and at times, privation.  Nevertheless, he had what he needed.  He could take a few loaves and fish and feed thousands.  That's the example for us.  We can take the little that we have and multiply it with heart, might, mind, and strength.  It can become enough to take care of others' needs as well.  

 

God provides when we need it.  Mary and Joseph received gold, frankincense, and myrrh before having to take their child to Egypt.  Peter, James, and John caught a boatload of fish to finance their first missions in Jesus' service.  When Jesus needed a colt to ride into Jerusalem and a place for the Passover, they were provided in the moment he needed them.  When his mother and sisters needed a place to lay his crucified body, Joseph of Arimethea provided one.  

 

Since I've come to understand these things, money doesn't stress me nearly as much.  It has been easier to provide for my family.  I understand the importance of goals and having a clear vision of what I desire.  Somehow, when I work with that kind of intention, the Lord opens up the way.  Sometimes it takes longer than I hope, but it just seems to happen eventually.  How much is the Lord willing to give us?  I think it depends on our faith and how strong our desires and vision are.  When we realize that the power is in us, by virtue of our relation to our Heavenly Parents, to create what we need, just like they do, suddenly wealth and riches become a means, not an end.  He that hath eternal life is rich (D&C 11:7).

[NightSG]

One thing that I think a lot of us need to keep in mind in the quest for that magic "enough" number is that no child ever said at a parent's funeral "I wish daddy had spent more time at work instead of with us."

 

Even charity doesn't have to be money; a few minutes of your time and labor can do a lot more.  When I picked up the $500 car on New Year's Eve, the seller wasn't too sure about how accurate the gas gauge was.  I found out the hard way about 1AM that it's empty about a 16th of an inch above the empty line, while on an access road with no shoulder and no turnoffs close.  A young couple stopped, he helped me push it to the top of the hill and I was able to coast until I found a side street, while she followed.  They then gave me a ride about a mile to a gas station where I was able to get a can and a couple gallons of gas, then took me back to the car.  20 minutes out of their New Year's night saved me walking around in the cold looking for the station, then having to lug the full can all the way back to the car.  I don't know how well off they were financially, but that few minutes of their effort meant more to me than if someone had handed me a couple hundred bucks on the side of the road.

[Guest]

 

If you're not an idler and, if you work with a vision of what you want to achieve, God will bring to pass spiritual creation in your life.  In other words, when we work with our "heart, might, mind, and strength," the goals we have in our minds will come to fruition in time.

 

"Heart"--our desires--is the most important factor because it influences all the others.  In the French version of the D&C, the word for "might" is pouvoir, which means "to be able."  It's opportunity.  Desire leads us to opportunity.  Then "mind" is our ability to visualize what we desiire.  Finally, "strength" is the actual labor we exert.  If we follow this pattern, we will be successful in achieving whatever desires we have.

 

I like what you said about "sufficient for our needs" and not worrying.  I echo that.  But as a side note, I'd like to address this little word play a bit.

 

Depending on which section you're talking about, we have a bit of a translational quandry.  I recognize this passage from Section 4 of the D&C.

 

In English: "...see that ye serve him with all your heart, might, mind, and strength."

In French it translates to: "... with all your  heart, power, spirit, and strength."   (pouvoir translates into "power" as well as "ability" in the noun form.)

In Spanish it translates to: "...with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength."

 

In English, it is often explained that the four points mean with all your "Emotional, Spiritual, Mental, and Physical faculties" respectively.  It is easy to see that in the Spanish.  But why is the French different?  Why is mental taken out?  Why is the spiritual split into two?  I believe that in the French mindset, the spiritual is synonymous with mental in this context.  Comments?

[Vort]

In English: "...see that ye serve him with all your heart, might, mind, and strength."

In French it translates to: "... with all your  heart, power, spirit, and strength."   (pouvoir translates into "power" as well as "ability" in the noun form.)

In Spanish it translates to: "...with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength."

 

In English, it is often explained that the four points mean with all your "Emotional, Spiritual, Mental, and Physical faculties" respectively.  It is easy to see that in the Spanish.  But why is the French different?  Why is mental taken out?  Why is the spiritual split into two?  I believe that in the French mindset, the spiritual is synonymous with mental in this context.  Comments?

 

In Italian, it's "heart, faculty [inherent mental or physical power], mind and strength."

 

Interestingly, when I served a mission in the early to mid '80s, "strength" and "faculty" were swapped. So to a large extent, I believe that many of the translation issues are more a refinement and correction of what has gone before than an investigation of shades of distinction.

[Guest]

Gee, if we only had my brother here to give the Portuguese, we could have most of the Romantic languages covered.  Anyone know Romanian?

 

Edit: I found I could read the Portuguese from my French and Spanish background.  It is the same as the Spanish translation.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Guest