That "girl" was a "boy" last year...

[NeedleinA]

So, just finished putting my kids to bed. We read/look at books before bed. Tonight the boys had out their school year book to show me pictures. We came across a picture of a student. That is when my 9yr says, "That girl was a boy last year. His name was (insert male name) last year, he name is (female name) this year. He is growing his hair to be a girl". 
So... this a child in the 2nd grade, yes, the 2nd grade. 

So even forgetting the issue of converting from a boy to a girl, what does a 2nd grader know about long term choices or consequences of this magnitude? The mother or father...
 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2nd grade?!?!?!?!

I'm speechless!

[Guest]

I'd be shocked by this, but I happen to know someone with an adopted child who was initially raised as a boy, and then ultrasound showed her to be a girl. This stuff can be complicated.

[BeccaKirstyn]

Reminds me of this article I recently read...

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/i-used-to-be-transgender.-heres-my-take-on-kids-who-think-they-are-transgen

[Guest MormonGator]

Wow. That's disturbing. Even for many of the supporters of that lifestyle choice here, I'm sure we all find that a little troubling. 

Edited February 26, 2016 by MormonGator

[Vort]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wow. That's disturbing. Even for many of the supporters of that lifestyle choice here, I'm sure we all find that a little troubling. 

I don't find it a little troubling. I find it beyond appalling. All adults involved should be jailed for child abuse and forbidden from having any contact with children, theirs or anyone else's, for the rest of their lives.

[Guest]

Except, again, you don't know the circumstances. 

[Vort]

True enough.

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't find it a little troubling. I find it beyond appalling. All adults involved should be jailed for child abuse and forbidden from having any contact with children, theirs or anyone else's, for the rest of their lives.

So you are agnostic on this issue, right?  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

39 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I'd be shocked by this, but I happen to know someone with an adopted child who was initially raised as a boy, and then ultrasound showed her to be a girl. This stuff can be complicated.

This is a really good point. And if this is the case, that would be a reasonable explanation.

[NeuroTypical]

13 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

So even forgetting the issue of converting from a boy to a girl, what does a 2nd grader know about long term choices or consequences of this magnitude? 

Well, without being taught by you people (the parents), your 2nd graders will only know what others teach them.  So get off your duffs and start teaching your children - because this issue is only getting more and more on their little radars.

It isn't that hard to teach your 2nd grader about such things.  Here you go:

"Yep, you'll probably see or hear about folks who have a hard time just being a boy or a girl.  Some people have boy or girl parts but might want to be called something different.  Also, sometimes (and there aren't many folks like this), someone is born different, and it's hard to tell by looking at parts if they are boys or girls.  Stuff like this can get really confusing.  One thing to remember, is that people in these situations are almost always suffering.  Their lives are usually very hard.  I mean think about it - what would it be like if you, my son, were afraid you were actually a girl?*  I think it might be kinda scary, don't you?  Anyway, the whole thing can be very confusing.  It's important to love people like Christ loved us.  For these people, sometimes that just looks like saying hi to them in the hall, or just talking to them normally without freaking out about stuff.  What do you think?"

[Open discussion with 2nd grader ensues]

Or you can do something else, like my WWII vet dad, and try to teach your kid "you can always spot them queeries, because they all have long hair, and earrings, and they sing songs with girl voices."   True story.

 

 

* - Some of you might be worried that saying stuff like this to a 2nd grader might somehow make your kids start doubting their gender identities.  Please, let's try to be mature adults here.  You don't turn your kid X by talking about X.  That's the particular kind of frightened ignorance that made pope whatsisname afraid to look through Gallileo's telescope.  You may discover your kid has been thinking about X, and that may worry or surprise you, but it's your job to deal with your own emotions - don't make your kid pay for them.

Edited February 26, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, without being taught by you people (the parents), your 2nd graders will only know what others teach them.  So get off your duffs and start teaching your children - because this issue is only getting more and more on their little radars.

It isn't that hard to teach your 2nd grader about such things.  Here you go:

"Yep, you'll probably see or hear about folks who have a hard time just being a boy or a girl.  Some people have boy or girl parts but might want to be called something different.  Also, sometimes (and there aren't many folks like this), someone is born different, and it's hard to tell by looking at parts if they are boys or girls.  Stuff like this can get really confusing.  One thing to remember, is that people in these situations are almost always suffering.  Their lives are usually very hard.  I mean think about it - what would it be like if you, my son, were afraid you were actually a girl?*  I think it might be kinda scary, don't you?  Anyway, the whole thing can be very confusing.  It's important to love people like Christ loved us.  For these people, sometimes that just looks like saying hi to them in the hall, or just talking to them normally without freaking out about stuff.  What do you think?"

[Open discussion with 2nd grader ensues]

Or you can do something else, like my WWII vet dad, and try to teach your kid "you can always spot them queeries, because they all have long hair, and earrings, and they sing songs with girl voices."   True story.

 

 

* - Some of you might be worried that saying stuff like this to a 2nd grader might somehow make your kids start doubting their gender identities.  Please, let's try to be mature adults here.  You don't turn your kid X by talking about X.  That's the particular kind of frightened ignorance that made pope whatsisname afraid to look through Gallileo's telescope.  You may discover your kid has been thinking about X, and that may worry or surprise you, but it's your job to deal with your own emotions - don't make your kid pay for them.

I can see no real value in having this level of "open" discussion with a 2nd grader, and yes, I do see potential harm. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I'm with you NeuroTypical. I m very open with my children  (as in your first example, not your grandfather... ).  I especially like how you emphasize doing empathy and Christ like love.

My oldest son just returned from his mission, and the second is serving his mission now....I didn't talk to them about Transgender issues when they were young because it was a topic back then but I did talk to them about any other contoversial topics that came up. 

And none of my children have been warped by the experience as far as I can tell...I am still the crazy one of the family, LOL.

[Guest MormonGator]

34 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

. I m very open with my children 

My parents were that way with me. It helped me tremendously because I knew I could ask them first about any issue instead of my friends or teachers. They didn't blush, giggle or act uncomfortable. They answered all my questions and encouraged me to think for myself. 

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can see no real value in having this level of "open" discussion with a 2nd grader, and yes, I do see potential harm. 

Again, notice in the OP, the 2nd grader brought up the subject, meaning they had already been exposed to information from somewhere.

It is, of course, totally up to you on how much you want to talk about things with your kids.  If you're fine with peers/schools/internet being their sole source of information about such things, that's your choice.   You don't homeschool by chance, do you?

[mordorbund]

For those parents who feel out of their element having such conversations with their children (about sexuality, gender roles, puberty, bodies, etc.) you'll be pleased to know that the Church has published a pamphlet to aid you in this. Take a look at A Parent's Guide. It's even broken down by age groups.

[unixknight]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can see no real value in having this level of "open" discussion with a 2nd grader, and yes, I do see potential harm. 

Basically what Neuro said.  The kids are gonna hear about it one way or the other.  So either they can get the real story from their own parents, or they're gonna get the politically correct LGBTQ approved lecture on "gender fluidity."

No, strike that.  It isn't an A or B proposition.   They're getting that lecture either way.

Public funded brainwashing camps Public schools aren't waiting for the kids to get to an age where the parents might be comfortable talking to them about it.  The schools want to get 'em early.  Whatever potential harm may exist from having that discussion when they're in second grade can at least be mitigated, and pales in comparison to the brainwashing lessons on sexual diversity they'll be getting on a daily basis.

My younger daughter is in second grade and we've had this discussion.

Edited February 26, 2016 by unixknight

[Vort]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can see no real value in having this level of "open" discussion with a 2nd grader, and yes, I do see potential harm. 

I see your point, and I do not disagree. Not entirely, anyway. Our duty as parents is to hide many of the uglier realities from our children while they are yet tender and too immature to deal with such things. As others have pointed out, when the children come home with questions, you must deal with that immediately, no fiddling around or prevaricating.

But often, vaccination is better than treatment. Since, in our filthy world, our children will be exposed to such ideas and trends -- even homeschooled children -- we need to equip them proactively with protection, answers, and ways of dealing with ambiguity and ignorance (their own and that of others). I have often wondered if I am polluting my pure, innocent children when I discuss such things with or in front of them, and I am sure that I have not always acted wisely in that regard. But I have chosen to be pretty proactive and forward about such matters. So far, it seems to have worked in our favor; I hope and pray it continues to do so.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

For those parents who feel out of their element having such conversations with their children (about sexuality, gender roles, puberty, bodies, etc.) you'll be pleased to know that the Church has published a pamphlet to aid you in this. Take a look at A Parent's Guide. It's even broken down by age groups.

"Role identity refers to an understanding of oneself in relation to others. In contrast, gender identity involves an understanding and accepting of one’s own gender, with little reference to others; one’s gender roles usually focus upon the social interaction associated with being male or female."

Sometimes,(I'd even guess usually) issues like this spring from societal forces.  The former-boy-now-girl might be confused and having that confusion exploited or molded by parents who think very differently about gender roles than we do.   Other times, issues like this spring from biological forces.  That link is full of pretty clearly-worded black-and-whiteness, and for 99.5% of us, it's good advice.  There does exist that remaining half-a-percent of people born different - born with both a penis and a vagina, or something odd about their chromosomes, etc.  Sometimes parents and doctors make a choice at birth, try to pick whatever genitalia seems the most pronounced or most developed, remove everything else, and hope it sticks.  Sometimes that choice, as years go by, might seem to have been the wrong choice.   For this half-a-percent of humans, understanding and accepting your own gender can be a pretty tall order.  

Let's be graphically clear here: Think about good, wholesome LDS families, healthy and loving.  Think about families happily raising their children in good schools, surrounding their children with good peers, and everything is pretty hunky-dory.  Consider the reality - more than one of these families is struggling with a kid who, for reasons that nobody can tell, just honestly down to the depths of their soul, know with every fiber of their being, that they are not the gender their parts tell them they are.  There's no traumatic events, no abuse, this information has never reached their ears or eyes, there is no explanation.  This springs totally from the kid.  

Such kids exist.  Yes, there's plenty of cultural indoctrination going on, but there are also some kids who just struggle with this stuff despite a total lack of any identifiable reason or cause.  Somewhere out there, is a mom or dad like you, trying to figure out how to love a kid they caught trying to mutilate themselves in the bathroom, because their parts are "wrong".  

Yes, people (even 2nd graders) in this situation tend to suffer horribly.  Suicide attempts happen a lot with these folks.  Like, in tragically high amounts.   Like, 40% of transgender people attempt suicide at least once at some point in their lives.  

Wouldn't it be nice if some kid falling in this category had a good friend to rely on?  Wouldn't it be nice if it was an LDS friend, who had been taught to genuinely love them?

Edited February 26, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[unixknight]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Such kids exist.  Yes, there's plenty of cultural indoctrination going on, but there are also some kids who just struggle with this stuff despite a total lack of any identifiable reason or cause.  
 

Part of what makes that so difficult is that not only are our kids being taught that this sort of thing is normal, it's being sold to them as so completely normal that some kids are getting the impression that it's supposed to be like that.  My older daughter (16) has an acquaintance in high school who wakes up every morning and decides what "gender" she'll be that day.  (One wonders what her boyfriend thinks of this.)  Of course, nobody is allowed to be skeptical or question it on the grounds that doing so would make them a "transphobe."*  That makes it harder to tell the genuine cases from the fads.

 

*Yep, that's pop culture's new favorite "shame on you" label.

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - genderfluid is the new black.  We've lost the war on what society accepts and supports legally.  Every generation of the restoration, until ours, we were in the majority.  Now we're in the minority.  

Y'all heard the term "cisgender"?  Did you know you are one?  Because you are...

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Again, notice in the OP, the 2nd grader brought up the subject, meaning they had already been exposed to information from somewhere.

It is, of course, totally up to you on how much you want to talk about things with your kids.  If you're fine with peers/schools/internet being their sole source of information about such things, that's your choice.   You don't homeschool by chance, do you?

I'm not suggesting no discussion. I'm suggesting that I would keep it much more simple.  It's the "open" or depth of the conversation for someone so young that I don't find necessary. Pure principles of plain truth. I'd probably go to the proclamation on the family.

I don't have kids. When and if I do, I do plan on homeschooling them, yes.

[The Folk Prophet]

34 minutes ago, Vort said:

I see your point, and I do not disagree. Not entirely, anyway. Our duty as parents is to hide many of the uglier realities from our children while they are yet tender and too immature to deal with such things. As others have pointed out, when the children come home with questions, you must deal with that immediately, no fiddling around or prevaricating.

But often, vaccination is better than treatment. Since, in our filthy world, our children will be exposed to such ideas and trends -- even homeschooled children -- we need to equip them proactively with protection, answers, and ways of dealing with ambiguity and ignorance (their own and that of others). I have often wondered if I am polluting my pure, innocent children when I discuss such things with or in front of them, and I am sure that I have not always acted wisely in that regard. But I have chosen to be pretty proactive and forward about such matters. So far, it seems to have worked in our favor; I hope and pray it continues to do so.

I have no problem with the idea of discussing the issues. It's how we discuss them that I would be concerned with. With a heavy dosing of the philosophies of men to the young, impressionable minds...that's my concern.

[NeuroTypical]

1. Homeschooling rocks, assuming you have at least one dedicated parent who really likes spending a lot of time per day, every day, with the kids, with no breaks.   It totally rocks.

2. How to discuss things is totally up to parents, and that rocks too.  

[Guest]

Quote

Public funded brainwashing camps

 

Oh good. I was so hoping we'd go here again.