In my absences from the forum

[Traveler]

In case it has not been noticed I have been absent from the forum.  I do not like to announce travel on the internet before or during.  The wife and I celebrated our wedding anniversary this year with a two week curse of the Mediterranean.  This trip was made with 10 other LDS couples.  I believe that I have experienced a significant paradigm shift about a great many “things”.  Of note – we were in Crete when the Egyptian airliner went down and we flew through Paris coming and going.

Religiously – So many things – for example standing at the theater in Ephesus where the encounter between Paul and the idol makers took place has given me a whole new perspective in g-ds of wood and stone of that era.  Especially concerning the fate that caused the complete abandonment (ruin) of Ephesus – the second most powerful and rich city of the Roman Empire (next only to Rome).

Historically – I had views of history that for lack of better terms – was insufficient.  For example the Knights Templar was not the only extremely powerful order of religious, political, secretive order of knights during the crusades.   There were others – in particular the Knights of Saint John that later became the Maltese Knights; an order that has survived and currently has international sovereignty recognized by the UN.  I also did not understand what prehistoric meant – I thought it was the era of human history that took place before written language.

Politics – I did not realize the current impact of US politics (current presidential campaign) outside of the USA and the unrest over the lack of government response to the needs and concerns (including commerce – especially international commerce) of criticizes.  This election will change to course of history (economy) – one way or the other.  Also our current foreign policies are not helping our allies in the Middle East.  Not just Israel – but if we are not careful – our relationship with Turkey will continue to weaken – and the consequences will be most unfortunate. I believe there are undercurrents currently taking place that are changing the world are we know it – or as we think we know it.

Other than these things – I very much enjoyed the time off with my wife and friends.

 

The Traveler

[NeedleinA]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The wife and I celebrated our wedding anniversary this year with a two week curse

I had to quote this before you could edit it because it put a smile on my face! Glad you enjoyed your trip and were able to see some eye opening things. 

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Politics – I did not realize the current impact of US politics (current presidential campaign) outside of the USA and the unrest over the lack of government response to the needs and concerns (including commerce – especially international commerce) of criticizes.

Curious in ways did you see this manifesting itself, I'd like to learn? Thanks

[Connie]

Curse of the Mediterranean sounds like a great title for a novel.  

Glad you had a great trip, Traveler. Welcome back. 

[pam]

I'll make sure I don't take that trip.  I don't want any curses.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I had to quote this before you could edit it because it put a smile on my face! Glad you enjoyed your trip and were able to see some eye opening things. 

I thought he did that on purpose.

[Sunday21]

Impact of US politics on the rest of the world. Rest of the World speaking! We often wish we could vote for the US president as he/her will influence our life so much! We want a vote!

[NeedleinA]

56 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I thought he did that on purpose.

Perhaps he did - could go either way

45 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Impact of US politics on the rest of the world. Rest of the World speaking! We often wish we could vote for the US president as he/her will influence our life so much! We want a vote!

Tell me who you want to vote for and I'll use my vote towards your request. Should "we" vote for bad, badder or baddddderrederr?

[zil]

There's a very simple way for the rest of the world to increase in power to the point where the US cannot have any influence over them that they do not want: be righteous followers of Christ.

[Sunday21]

25 minutes ago, zil said:

There's a very simple way for the rest of the world to increase in power to the point where the US cannot have any influence over them that they do not want: be righteous followers of Christ.

Hmm. Not convinced. How about Alma and his people under the unrighteous dominion of Amulon? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/24?lang=eng

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I had to quote this before you could edit it because it put a smile on my face! Glad you enjoyed your trip and were able to see some eye opening things. 

Curious in ways did you see this manifesting itself, I'd like to learn? Thanks

 

There is a lot of interest in a particular candidate for president in the USA.  Interest because the candidate is not a professional politician and claims governments are acting stupid.  I now have a very different view about what the opposing political candidate says concerning foreign government officials that are very scared if he is elected.  Our election may have more of an effect than just what candidates say they are going to do.

There is a lot of unrest concerning the ineffectiveness and stupidity of government.   Example – Spain has a 4 party government and the two major parties cannot agree enough on anything to form a new government – their government has been shut down for several months – the general response that I got was that job creation, the economy and just about anything people care about seems to be working better without a government.  It would seem that shutting down a government is more propaganda than reality when considering the Spain example.  In addition Barcelona wants to be a capitol of their own country – the area was forced to be part of Spain not so long ago and there are the old flags all over the place showing current support for regional separation.  Do I need to tell anyone how unhappy Greece is?

I was very surprised to learn how unhappy folks are in Italy with not just their government but with the Vatican.  In Turkey the refugees have been such a big problem with clashes going on that the government was finally forced to round up all the refugees and force them into camps.  There are jobs for the refugees but work release from camps now requires documentation that they are not affiliated with extreme groups. 

One point of interest – Turkey is a popular place for Russian tourists (much more than US tourists) – I did not encounter any Russians that were unhappy with their government and Putin – I was very surprised with his popularity and how vocal Russians are about having him as the pres.

Also – it seemed to me that in general; among those I visited – religion is very much a negative thing.  Very few know much about LDS or care.

One last note – the Samsung phone translating apps are amazing at opening up conversations.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

Hmm. Not convinced. How about Alma and his people under the unrighteous dominion of Amulon? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/24?lang=eng

How about them?  The Lord delivered them, did He not?  Right after they learned a valuable lesson in strength and humility?  Whether it's delivery, or blessings beyond measure, or becoming closer to God, or whatever, righteousness always yields positive results.  Anyway, the real objection is that until the millennium, there won't be a large enough group of righteous enough people for this to be observable on a global scale.  But I stand by my statement.

[Sunday21]

1 minute ago, zil said:

How about them?  The Lord delivered them, did He not?  Right after they learned a valuable lesson in strength and humility?  Whether it's delivery, or blessings beyond measure, or becoming closer to God, or whatever, righteousness always yields positive results.  Anyway, the real objection is that until the millennium, there won't be a large enough group of righteous enough people for this to be observable on a global scale.  But I stand by my statement.

Hmm...okayyyy. I can sort of see what you mean....in the end righteousness always wins...but in the meantime, the unrighteous can make life pretty uncomfortable

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Hmm...okayyyy. I can sort of see what you mean....in the end righteousness always wins...but in the meantime, the unrighteous can make life pretty uncomfortable

Precisely.  But when you have a high concentration of high righteousness, you have power beyond imagining - no foreign president (or army, or nuke, or whatever) would concern you in the least.  (Of course, that usually ends in said people being taken somewhere else, like the City of Enoch.)

[LeSellers]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

the candidate … claims governments are acting stupid.

It's not an act.

Or, well, it is an act, because they're not stupid: they're power addicted.

The result looks the same.

Lehi

[Sunday21]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Precisely.  But when you have a high concentration of high righteousness, you have power beyond imagining - no foreign president (or army, or nuke, or whatever) would concern you in the least.  (Of course, that usually ends in said people being taken somewhere else, like the City of Enoch.)

I want to go now! Where is my celestial rocket! Seriously though, you can be very wonderful and still be stuck terrestrially speaking. Look at the those general authorities. Not one of them or their wives has been translated lately.

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

Precisely.  But when you have a high concentration of high righteousness, you have power beyond imagining - no foreign president (or army, or nuke, or whatever) would concern you in the least.  (Of course, that usually ends in said people being taken somewhere else, like the City of Enoch.)

I believe that your assumption that righteous people (even in great concentrations) will not suffer because of the wickedness of others is misguided.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Hmm. Not convinced. How about Alma and his people under the unrighteous dominion of Amulon? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/24?lang=eng

Also note that Alma's people were under the effects of prophetic decree/warnings of Abinadi and their suffering was  ordained do to their rejection of his message....  After all they were converted by Alma not Abinadi

[LeSellers]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

I believe that your assumption that righteous people (even in great concentrations) will not suffer because of the wickedness of others is misguided.

 

It depends on the concentration: God would have spared Gomorrah for the sake of ten righteous men. There weren't ten, so He rained down fire and brimstone. Had there been ten, — we don't know.

Lehi

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I want to go now! Where is my celestial rocket! Seriously though, you can be very wonderful and still be stuck terrestrially speaking. Look at the those general authorities. Not one of them or their wives has been translated lately.

I did mention a high concentration.  And how do you know whether any given general authority has been translated?  Maybe they have and are still here because we need them...

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe that your assumption that righteous people (even in great concentrations) will not suffer because of the wickedness of others is misguided.

I didn't say they wouldn't suffer because of the wickedness of others.  I said they would have power (by which I meant the power of God) and be free from worrying about external influence.  The scriptures support that belief, and even describe it happening as the millennium approaches - see D&C 45.

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

It depends on the concentration: God would have spared Gomorrah for the sake of ten righteous men. There weren't ten, so He rained down fire and brimstone. Had there been ten, — we don't know.

Lehi

 

I think you may be mixing apples with oranges.  Sodom and Gomorrah did many things that effected righteous people.  What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah may have had more to do with protecting a few righteous than it did destroying the wicked. 

I do understand that natural disasters  can occur to punish the wicked but I also believe that natural disasters can cause harm to many good and righteous people – and we should be willing to help those in need – even if they are not what we see as righteous.

My point is that righteousness does not prevent suffering and I would point to Jesus as the prime example.  But all this has nothing to do with my thread – that a visit to the Mediterranean opened my eyes to things I did not really understand.  Including the fact that I spent a lot of time on other “seas” that are not the Mediterranean Sea.  I did not realize so many other seas made up so much of the Mediterranean.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

 

One thing I found most interesting about Pompey and Ephesus.

They were both port cities and the levels of the oceans has dropped and reseeded in excess of 2 kilometers from the levels that existed 2,000 years ago.  Man-made global warming will have to raise the oceans a great deal before it will reach the levels it once was – before mankind had such an effect. 

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

 

Other than these things – I very much enjoyed the time off with my wife and friends.

 

 

 That's all that matters, isn't it? The best times of my life have been hanging out with my friends. 

[NightSG]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

They were both port cities and the levels of the oceans has dropped and reseeded in excess of 2 kilometers from the levels that existed 2,000 years ago.  Man-made global warming will have to raise the oceans a great deal before it will reach the levels it once was – before mankind had such an effect. 

Uh...Ephesus is at, like, 30' above sea level.  Pretty normal for coastal cites that didn't want to be swamped my every big wave.

Alexandria, also a port city at the time, is also still coastal.  Might want to check your sources.

Edited May 25, 2016 by NightSG

[LeSellers]

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

a visit to the Mediterranean opened my eyes to things I did not really understand.

I've lived in France (mission) and Italy (military) so your experience is mine: USA is not the center of everyone's universe, in spite of the fact that when USA gets a cold, the rest of the world sneezes.

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I spent a lot of time on other “seas” that are not the Mediterranean Sea.  I did not realize so many other seas made up so much of the Mediterranean.

The Ionian, Adriatic, Aegean, and Ligurian, Balearic, Caspian, Red, and Black Seas (the list varies) were the ancient "Seven Seas". There are a couple of others, too: Alboran and Crete.

Lehi

Edited May 25, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I've lived in France (mission) and Italy (military) so your experience is mine: USA is not the center of everyone's universe, in spite of the fact tht when USA gets a cold, the rest of the world sneezes.

Center of the universe? No. 

Greatest country in the history of the universe? Yup.