What about this new twist to the Orlando shooting scenario? The plot seems to twist like a taffy pull every day.

[carlimac]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765687311/FBI-looking-at-whether-Orlando-gunman-led-a-secret-gay-life.html

[Blackmarch]

Well maybe the shouts of "see what conservative christianity makes you do" will die down for a moment.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

Well maybe the shouts of "see what conservative christianity makes you do" will die down for a moment.

And maybe Hillary and Trump will both cede the election to Cruz...

[unixknight]

8 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

Well maybe the shouts of "see what conservative christianity makes you do" will die down for a moment.

I'd love for that to be the case, but Christianity remains the safer target for Leftist anger. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

I'd love for that to be the case, but Christianity remains the safer target for Leftist anger. 

Well... only until the Evangelical vote starts to lean heavily left.

[Guest]

@carlimac,

To the OP, what about it?

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

@carlimac,

To the OP, what about it?

I think this is how it worked: He was gay, hated himself for it because he was brought up in a world that doesn't just think homosexuality is immoral but abhorrently so, so he took out his repressed anger in the worst way possible. 

[unixknight]

Am I the only one who's wondering whether this story (or the FBI's statements) is just an effort to take the heat off of radical Islam and re-cast the killer as a guy who just had his own internal issues?

Edited June 15, 2016 by unixknight

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Am I the only one who's wondering whether this story (or the FBI's statements) is just an effort to take the heat off of radical Islam and re-cast the killer as a guy who just had his own internal issues?

 Nope, I agree totally. I think it was a culmination of everything. His radical Islam, self loathing personalty, love of violence. Everything

[NightSG]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

And maybe Hillary and Trump will both cede the election to Cruz...

Who will then peel off his not-so-convincing human suit, revealing himself to be a midget wookiee, (or possibly a giant ewok) and put Ron Paul in charge.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Who will then peel off his not-so-convincing human suit, revealing himself to be 

No no no. We all know Cruz is really a giant lizard in humanoid form. Get with the program Night. 

[NightSG]

26 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No no no. We all know Cruz is really a giant lizard in humanoid form. Get with the program Night. 

Does anybody really know what wookiees look like under the hair?  They could be really furry lizards.

[Just_A_Guy]

7 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think this is how it worked: He was gay, hated himself for it because he was brought up in a world that doesn't just think homosexuality is immoral but abhorrently so, so he took out his repressed anger in the worst way possible. 

Not to be overly snarky, but . . .

• When we thought the shooter was straight--it was all the homophobes' (read:  Christian conservatives') fault.
• Now that we think he was gay--it's still the homophobes' (read:  Christian conservatives') fault.

Is there any potential fact pattern whereby a catastrophic event is not directly traceable to conservative Christians? 

America is currently more tolerant of homosexuality, and less Christianized, than it ever has been at any point in its history.  If the nation's increasing tolerance and secularization are accompanied by increasing anti-gay violence, then it stands to reason that the trend is not attributable to a diminishing proportion of Christians merely continuing to say and believe what they have pretty much always said and believed.  We must look, instead, at recent changes to the former status quo--whether they be political, social, or demographic.

Or, maybe we could just acknowledge that every group--including (saints preserve us!) gays and Muslims--is more than capable of producing a few bad'uns without any outside help.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Not to be overly snarky, but . . .

When we thought the shooter was straight--it was all the homophobes' (read:  Christian conservatives') fault.

Now that we think he was gay--it's still the homophobes' (read:  Christian conservatives') fault.

Is there any scenario where any bad thing in the world is not directly traceable to conservative Christians?

Seems to me maybe we ought to acknowledge that every group is more than capable of producing some bad'uns, without any outside help.

We don't disagree JAG. Even though with more facts it looks like the shooter was pretty much what I described. 

[Just_A_Guy]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

We don't disagree JAG. Even though with more facts it looks like the shooter was pretty much what I described. 

Perhaps.  Then again--given that the FBI has asked the ex-wife (who claimed very early on that the shooter was gay) to keep her mouth shut and that it was first Brazilian, then European news sources that picked up the story; I rather suspect that the fix was in from the get-go:  Christianity and the NRA have been selected as the scapegoats, both because it's politically useful to go against already-disfavored groups and also to deflect uncomfortable questions about immigration from the near-east and Islam generally. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

  Christianity and the NRA have been selected as the scapegoats, both because it's politically useful to go against already-disfavored groups and also to deflect uncomfortable questions about immigration from the near-east and Islam generally. 

Yup. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by MormonGator

[mirkwood]

Or he pretended to by gay as he scouted his target.

[SpiritDragon]

50 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Or he pretended to by gay as he scouted his target.

This was my initial thought when I heard he'd frequented the club - he was essentially surveilling his target.

[carlimac]

12 hours ago, Carborendum said:

@carlimac,

To the OP, what about it?

I was just wondering how it would affect the narratives spun by  those trying to affix blame already. I thought maybe it would quiet the cries of victimization a bit from the LGBT crowd who are trying to hoard the whole pie for themselves  and have laid blame squarely at the feet of religion. . (I don't disagree that they deserve a huge slice of the pie on this one.) I've read so many statements from that group saying there was only one reason he chose a gay bar and that was because of his, (and many religions') hatred for gays.  I thought maybe once they found out he was actually one of them they would say, OK it's not Christianity's fault and the guy was just crazy. But no, They still blame Christianity because if Christians had only made the environment more accepting, this guy wouldn't have had the self-loathing that cause him to shoot up the gay bar and kill so many of his kind. It's psychological pretzels at this point. So twisted and contorted. I'm getting more confused the more I read! Don't even start the gun debate here because that's just a distraction and muddies the water. Gun control is neither here nor there when we're trying to figure out a motive. And who, if anyone besides this obviously sick and deranged dude, is to blame. 

I am intrigued by all the different opinions but ultimately, it's not worth all the mental energy I'm putting into it. And I probably fall into the group of calloused and uncaring folks who aren't still just simply mourning. I guess I'm not heartbroken like I was after Sandy Hook because I've never been to a bar (besides an English pub or two), know no one personally involved and don't relate to that culture at all. I am sad that so many lives were lost in a violent manner. And feeling even more wary of ISIS. But I'm not feeling the loss personally as so many are. I feel far more sickened and saddened by the two year old eaten by an alligator than the shooting. 

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by carlimac

[Guest]

9 hours ago, carlimac said:

and have laid blame squarely at the feet of religion.

You ask some militant atheist like Christopher Hitchens (deceased) or Bill Maher, and you'll hear that there is no difference between Radical Islam and common Western Christianity.

When Penn jillette was asked,"If all the billion+ Mulsims in the world were to wake up tomorrow morning and become evangelical Christains would the world be a better place or a worse place?" he had to take a moment to consider.  But he finally admitted,"I guess it would be a better place."

We're dealing with a population that is so angered that they can't think straight and will lean more toward the militant atheist side.

9 hours ago, carlimac said:

OK it's not Christianity's fault and the guy was just crazy.

It's strange that the same individuals who will REFUSE to accept this logic will ADAMANTLY declare that even though the great majority of child molestations are homosexual in nature, that these perpetrators are not homosexual.  They're just sickos.  Yes, homosexual sickos.  But I agree, sickos nonetheless.

9 hours ago, carlimac said:

And who, if anyone besides this obviously sick and deranged dude, is to blame.

When a society begins to blame everyone for the circumstances of their lives and forgets about personal responsibility and the principle of choice, then it is easy to assign blame wherever it suits them, logic present or not.

9 hours ago, carlimac said:

I feel far more sickened and saddened by the two year old eaten by an alligator than the shooting. 

What it MG hears you?

[Guest]

I think that Gator is probably right about why this guy did what he did. 

But there's a little part of me, and it's a part that I'm not sure how to feel about, that wonders if this is far wider and deeper than we know. I'm talking about conspiracy with a capital C. Considering the 9th Circuit's recent ruling on concealed weapons permits, and the ever-amplifying debate on gun ownership, and the current POTUS who I trust about as much as his buddy Vladmir Putin, well.... this part of myself wonders if this horrible tragedy was very, very intentionally planned by those who would do away with the 2nd amendment. 

Call me crazy. I'm calling myself crazy. 

[BeccaKirstyn]

14 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I think that Gator is probably right about why this guy did what he did. 

But there's a little part of me, and it's a part that I'm not sure how to feel about, that wonders if this is far wider and deeper than we know. I'm talking about conspiracy with a capital C. Considering the 9th Circuit's recent ruling on concealed weapons permits, and the ever-amplifying debate on gun ownership, and the current POTUS who I trust about as much as his buddy Vladmir Putin, well.... this part of myself wonders if this horrible tragedy was very, very intentionally planned by those who would do away with the 2nd amendment. 

Call me crazy. I'm calling myself crazy. 

It's hard not to start thinking this way. The way this whole event has been reported is sketchy and there are so many loose ends that are unknown. 

[zil]

17 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I think that Gator is probably right about why this guy did what he did. 

But there's a little part of me, and it's a part that I'm not sure how to feel about, that wonders if this is far wider and deeper than we know. I'm talking about conspiracy with a capital C. Considering the 9th Circuit's recent ruling on concealed weapons permits, and the ever-amplifying debate on gun ownership, and the current POTUS who I trust about as much as his buddy Vladmir Putin, well.... this part of myself wonders if this horrible tragedy was very, very intentionally planned by those who would do away with the 2nd amendment. 

Call me crazy. I'm calling myself crazy. 

I don't know that I believe this shooter was somehow directly made to do what he did by powerful people who wish to enslave us (aka secret combinations), but I can believe it was in part the consequence of the actions of secret combinations.  I also have no problem believing Obama and Putin, and others (like high court judges) are parts of secret combinations (whether they know it or not, whether the same one(s) or not).  And I am 100% certain that secret combinations exist right this minute and their goals are exactly as described in the Book of Mormon, and at least the highest of their members know full well that they're a secret combination (whatever name they use, they know what they are), and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they knew full well what the Book of Mormon says about them (specifically).

Personally, I don't think it's crazy to believe the Book of Mormon.

[mirkwood]

There is no conspiracy theory in the Book of Mormon —it is a conspiracy fact.  ~  Ezra Taft Benson

 

Oh I could go on and on about this topic...

[zil]

1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

Oh I could go on and on about this topic...

No doubt.  Gangs and mafia organizations are the easily-identified modern secret combinations.  It's foolish, IMO, to believe these exist and not believe that even more powerful, and far more secret ones exist.  (Which isn't to say we should run around like our hair's on fire, or that we can do more about it that we've been counseled to do in scripture and by modern prophets, but they're still real.)

My dad had occasion to meet a former law enforcement officer who was not a member of the church.  He asked the man to read the section of the Book of Mormon which described secret combinations and comment on it (my dad did not do more than ask him to read that portion - no explanation or hints involved).  The man read, and immediately responded, "That's the mafia."  (It was long ago, when that word only meant the Italian mafia.)  The man had no trouble at all recognizing the behaviors.