It has happened...

[Jamie123]

...and I wouldn't have predicted it in a million years. (Well maybe that's an exaggeration - let's say 10.)

Great Britain is no longer going to be a part of Europe.

 Which it never was really, except on paper. We never even adopted that stupid annoying "Euro" currency. Aside from thinking that the NHS (our equivalent of Obamacare, which we've had since the 1950s and most of us use) is a "good idea", and not automatically equating "socialist" with "spawn of the devil", we've much more in common with our cousins over the Atlantic with those over the Channel. 

But I was still predicting an easy win for the Remain campaign.

Just as I was also predicting an easy win for Hillary over Trump. Despite the fact that they look and act totally differently (and the fact that Trump is stinking rich), there's a good parallel between Trump and Farage. Both certainly want to keep foreigners out of their countries.

So come November who knows...?

Meanwhile here's a picture of Nigel Farage, about to win the "who can open his mouth the widest" competition...

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Jamie123

[yjacket]

Awesome decision by the Brits!!!

People don't understand what has been happening, they don't understand why Trump is so big.  I'll tell you why the money quote here:

"The sun in shining in Clacton, Essex, and the mood in Ukip’s heartland is just as upbeat.In the seaside town’s centre, Rob Blyth, 53, said he was delighted by the vote.“I don’t want to sound racist, but I think there are just too many people coming into the country. I moved out here from Dagenham four years ago, because Dagenham was looking like a foreign country.”Blyth, who works on the London Underground, said that many people had moved out to Clacton from London, but “there was nowhere further for them to go now”.“Dagenham just became a dumping ground,” said Blyth. “They weren’t doing it to Surrey, just Dagenham. People have had enough.”Joe Liff, 67, said he was very pleased by the result of the vote.He was also concerned about immigration.“The thing is, it’s like if you’ve got the Hilton hotel and a greasy spoon caff,” said the pensioner. “We’re the Hilton and Bulgaria’s the greasy spoon, so of course they all want to come here.”Jackie Collins, 53, housewife said she was “shocked” the country had voted for Brexit.“I didn’t think we’d actually do it. I think that’s how a lot of people feel shocked by it. I’m pleased though, I’m pleased for Britain.”Watching her grandchildren play in the fountains, she said it was important for their generation.“I think it’s going to be tough for a while. I haven’t got a clue what happens next,” she said. “I did it for my grandchildren. I think my age range will suffer, but it will be better for them.”

Call it "racist", call it xenophobic, call it whatever you want, but there is absolutely no question that the immigration policies of the EU and the US has destroyed the traditional culture.  The US has been blinded and led down the piped piper call that to take pride in one's culture, heritage, people and the desire to keep one's culture, heritage, people homogeneous is "racist". Nothing could be further from the truth.

When I went to a SA country for my mission, when I came back I truly felt like I was half that country, I completely integrated myself there, I spoke like them, I acted like them, I loved them.  But I didn't try and make them become "Yankees".  When immigrants run around in the US flying the Mexican flag, dressed like people from the Middle East-it ain't America.

People want to speak all about mixing of races, etc. peace, love, etc. Yet the actual actions of people are quite different. All one has to do is take a look at the 2010 NY Census demographics of where people live.  People might talk a big game of "integration", but when push comes to shove about where they actually live, the people they actually interact with, they will choose their own race 9/10 times. And if they don't, they wish they did live in a neighborhood that was more Black, more Asian, more White, etc.

It's just human nature, people want to live and associate with other people who are very similar to them, not exact, but very similar, a shared culture, a shared history, etc.

It is the reason why Trump is so big.  Complain, and moan about it, but it is reality.

At least the Brits are willing to say what they think, without the whole PC junk.

Edited June 24, 2016 by yjacket

[tesuji]

Brexit and Trump seem to be very much about immigration.

I happened to read the following prophecy by Lehi this morning. Apparently the Lord isn't so concerned about immigration, to the Americas at least. Seems like maybe he even has a grand purpose in bringing people here.

Quote

6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. ...

2 Ne. 1

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by tesuji

[NeuroTypical]

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Great Britain is no longer going to be a part of Europe.

What a weird thing to say.  When can we expect an update to the world's collection of human knowledge on the matter?

Edited June 24, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[NeuroTypical]

Snark aside, the world is certainly noticing GB leaving the EU.  I'm not too sure what to think about it.  

One thing I started noticing years ago: When the EU stuff was just starting and folks were excited, you couldn't swing a dead cat on the internet without running into a European commenting on how the EU would give them superpower status, that they'd be able to compete as equals with the US and China.  They were comparing the EU nations to USA states, and forecasting increasing similarities as the EU coalesced into a cohesive unit.  But then a few years ago, I noticed that it became impossible to find a European who even remembers even thinking such things.  It's like they've scrubbed the entire notion out of their collective consciousness.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong here, Jamie...)

Well, anyway, I'm very much in favor of a nation's people exercising peaceful right of choosing for themselves how they'll be governed, and what associations they'll make with other nations.  Three cheers for the total lack of bloodshed and armies and warfare with this news story!

Edited June 24, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[yjacket]

26 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I happened to read the following prophecy by Lehi this morning. Apparently the Lord isn't so concerned about immigration, to the Americas at least. Seems like maybe he even has a grand purpose in bringing people here.

 

I think we run a big risk on assuming that was spoken to the whole of the Americas. 1) God was speaking directly to Lehi; whether that prophesy is in effect for 100s of years or forever who knows. 2) We don't the lands being referred to.  Was it the entire Americas, was it North America, was it specific to where the Lamanites/Nephites were at.

The Americas is huge, I'm not quite sure when God told Lehi, "this land" he meant the entirety of both Continents.

And yes, God is concerned about immigration; it's why he told the Israelites to slay everyone else in the surrounding areas.  I have no idea about what God's plans are . . all I know is that when you've lived in a community for decades and then look up and the community is filled with people who speak a different tongue, believe a different God, believe in different politics, dress completely differently you won't feel too happy about immigration then.

It's all fine and dandy when that different culture is 1%, but when that other culture becomes significant 10%+ you won't like it.  When the grocery store attendant speaks with a foreign accent and you can't understand them you won't be happy. And just based on plain demographics, the traditional American culture is literally breeding itself out of existence.

That is what is happening in Britain. And it is happening here to a lessor extent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

It is obvious why Brexit happened.  Older traditional Brits said "enough", I want Britain to look and feel like the Britain of old, enough of this multi-culturalism crap.  The Mayor of London is Sadiq Khan a Muslim for Pete's sake, London of all places.  Having a mayor be Muslim with the name of Sadiq Khan isn't integration or assimilation-that's a peaceful takeover.

This isn't rocket science.  If all the sudden Uganda had a massive influx of white Americans or Brits, or even over time they had a significant influx that spoke English rather than Ugandi, imported a foreign religion with different ideas in politics, would they let it happen?  Heck no.  There would probably be bloodshed.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by yjacket

[yjacket]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

Re: immigration.  I work with a lot of immigrants, and they are hard-working family-oriented amazing people.  "Unpatriotic immigrants" is not the norm - it is the tabloid version the media is showing.  Most immigrants do not want to tear down the country they are coming to.

I agree, many are very hard working, many love the country they are coming to. I've met some immigrants that are more American than some Americans.

But countries need to be very, very select about the number and who they let in. 50 years ago, the US had a very smart immigration policy.  If you were from a country that had a very similar cultural background you were let in.  The reason for this was that the 1st generation of children born in the US would most likely have american names, they would look like everyone else and within 1 generation you couldn't tell the Italians from British. They wouldn't be Indian-Americans, or anything else, they would simply be Americans-they might have an Italian last name but that is it. In fact, many families changed their last names to assimilate into the US.

Anyone else from a foreign culture would need to have some real assets to be let in.  Indian/Pakistan/Middle East, etc, great, but you better be a doctor, engineer, etc. The leaders recognized that when you have vastly heterogeneous cultures mix, you have social strife. It's not that one group or race is better than the other, it's just that homogeneity breeds peace, where heterogeneity breeds strife.

A smart immigration policy recognizes that we want the best and brightest of the world, but that when they come here after 1 generation one can't really tell where they are from, they are fully assimilated.

But when you have immigrants (and it's not tabloid news) as I see it everyday on my drive to work, who fly the Mexican flag over their businesses, fly it on their cars, etc. that's not assimilation. It's not about whether they are hard-working, or whether they are unpatriotic, it is whether they will assimilate into the culture or take over the culture.  It's not an active desire to "tear down" the country. But it is a lack of recognition about why the country they moved to is the way it is . . .it is that way because of the culture. If one doesn't assimilate to the culture of the country, then in 20-30 years it won't be the country they wanted to move to in the first place.

[Jamie123]

53 minutes ago, changed said:

What is American culture?  America is a melting pot - we celebrate the German October fest, and we celebrate Cinco de Mayo.  If someone owns a French restaurant, you will see French culture there - French flags, French food, French decorations - if you go to a Chinese area - China town has Chinese flags and food etc.  Same with Mexican. No one should have to give up their culture to come here - I think it's perfectly fine to be a Mexican-America, or French-American, or Mormon-American, or ____-American.  America is not a communist country where everyone has to "look the same" and walk to the same beat - it's a country where everyone is free to be who they want to be.

And you think Great Britain isn't a melting pot also these days?

For sure Americans relish the taste of "Germanness" at the Oktoberfest, wear green on St. Paddy's day and go to Chinese restaurants, but these are excursions away from the everyday norm. (Except of course for actual German, Irish and Asian émigrés and their descendants but these are sub-cultures.) 

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but I've always seen "Anglo-Saxonness" as still dominant in the USA, just as it is in the UK.

This won't last forever of course, and probably it shouldn't. It's a crumbling wall, but a wall nonetheless.

[tesuji]

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it
Google search history suggests many Britons had little idea what they were voting for.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

[NeuroTypical]

"I hope Great Britain is able to survive without Greece."
- Dennis Miller

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Same with Mexican.

Ha ha - not if Mr. T has his wicked way!

[Just_A_Guy]

22 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but I've always seen "Anglo-Saxonness" as still dominant in the USA, just as it is in the UK.

This won't last forever of course, and probably it shouldn't. It's a crumbling wall, but a wall nonetheless.

Should Mexico similarly become less Mexican, and China less Chinese, and Mecca less Arabian/Muslim?

What is it about WASP culture that makes it so uniquely deserving of oikophobia?

[Jamie123]

29 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Should Mexico similarly become less Mexican, and China less Chinese, and Mecca less Arabian/Muslim?

What is it about WASP culture that makes it so uniquely deserving of oikophobia?

Well you know how it is: we all know how twee the Irish are with their leprechauns and crocks of gold and their swinging shillelaghs and their love of fist-fighting. And we all love the Germans with their leather pants and their yodelling and their spicy sausages. Who doesn't enjoy Chinese dragons, and telling everyone they were born in "The Year of the Cat" (or whatever). Familiarity on the other hand breeds contempt :)

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, tesuji said:

Brexit and Trump seem to be very much about immigration.

I happened to read the following prophecy by Lehi this morning. Apparently the Lord isn't so concerned about immigration, to the Americas at least. Seems like maybe he even has a grand purpose in bringing people here.

 

And then, of course, God commands the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites - men, women, and children included - so that Israelites can live peaceably in the Promised Land.

This is not about whether immigration is good or bad.  This is all about whether the Kingdom of God can thrive under un-integrated multiculturalism.  After all, when you got 5 wolves and 2 sheep, Democracy (the defender of Free Agency) is great... unless Godly people are the sheep.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it
Google search history suggests many Britons had little idea what they were voting for.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

I guess if you google something you don't know anything about it.  Funny stuff that.  I googled EU too.  Not because I have no idea what it is... I simply couldn't remember if Turkey (which partially lies in Asia) got accepted to the EU.  I would have cried FOUL if they did...  We Asians need to stick together... tug of war, that! 

Edited June 24, 2016 by anatess2

[yjacket]

On 6/24/2016 at 1:10 PM, changed said:

What is American culture?  America is a melting pot - we celebrate the German October fest, and we celebrate Cinco de Mayo.  If someone owns a French restaurant, you will see French culture there - French flags, French food, French decorations - if you go to a Chinese area - China town has Chinese flags and food etc.  Same with Mexican. No one should have to give up their culture to come here - I think it's perfectly fine to be a Mexican-America, or French-American, or Mormon-American, or ____-American.  America is not a communist country where everyone has to "look the same" and walk to the same beat - it's a country where everyone is free to be who they want to be.

 

 

You make my point exactly. You can't even tell me what American culture is . . that is how incredibly diluted it has become. Foods, flags and holidays does not a culture make.  Those are outward fluffy things that someone can point to on "Culture Day" and say see I've studied about the Germans in a book and the Germans have Oktoberfest, look how wonderful I am that I know and understand their culture. You make my point about assimilation, "you go to a Chinese area", exactly, everyone knows in the Big City where the Asian Market is with Little Chinatown or where Little Havana is, etc, etc. etc. 

A quick story about when I sold my 1st house. I had bought in a so-so neighborhood that was mostly Asian, then Black and maybe 8-9% White. We never had any problems, but it was quite obviously Asian b/c the Church of Sanghi was close by.  Anyways, the old Asian lady across the street was always very nice and kind, when we moved on the last check-in she asked me what kind of people bought it, I told her the last name of the Asian family who bought it and her response was "oh, good, good, good".  It was plainly obvious she wanted more Asian to move into the neighborhood and she definitely didn't want any Blacks moving in.

Culture is about what people strive to be, whether or not they ever obtain it. Culture is about how you raise your family, the morals that you communicate to your children how you want them to lead their lives-it ain't about holidays and food.

Another story, the area that I live now used to be 95% white with one of the absolute best High Schools in the state a #10 on Great Schools, very little gangs, etc. About 15 years ago the demographics slowly started shifting. Economically the area isn't run down at all, it's fairly decent, pretty low crime.  However, the nearest high school is no longer a #10, it's a 6 maybe 7, still pretty good, but now there are gangs, etc. It's not bad, but where there used to be no gangs now there are some.  What has changed, demographics . . . whether or not demographics is the cause who knows.  But whatever is the cause, there can be no doubt that the culture of the high school has changed and not for the better.

Having spice in a country, is great. Having a Asian marketplace, etc. is cool. But it requires smart immigration policy to ensure that what is spice doesn't end up becoming the overriding dish.

The American Culture used to be American Exceptionalism and I don't mean the Shawn Hannity version of American Exceptionalism where America is the bestest greatest country on the planet. America was Exceptional because it was different than every other country, because people didn't take crap from anyone.  A very rugged, independent, can-do, not going to let anyone stop me attitude nor am I going to be a burden to anyone else. American Culture was very tough, you sink or you swim, no one is going to hold your hand.  As much as it is romanticized, the Norman Rockwell/John Wayne ideals was the American Culture.  Is/was John Wayne Norman Rockwell accurate-heck no, but it was what people aspired to be. American Culture was also deeply religious.

The only way you promulgate that type of a culture is to teach it to your kids or see it emulated by others and then you adopt it. Which is why I've said, I've met immigrants that are more American than those born and raised Americans-to those immigrants I say please come in-we need more like you. But I've also personally seen plenty of immigrants that come here get pregnant have a baby, pay nothing to the hospital, go on welfare and have the kid here at everyone else's expense.  Then they are here for the rest of their lives on welfare (or collecting social benefits) with no ability to speak english, and no ability to make a contribution besides day-labor. Their kids then go to schools here and everyone else is forced to pick up the social costs of educating their child, taxes go up, quality of schools go down, etc. etc. etc. And those immigrants of course are fine with it, b/c living here in a crack-house is 10x better than where they came from.  Great for them, but at the same time they have just made the place they immigrated to worse off.

That is where a smart immigration policy that severely restricts those who come in would help.

Right now you have over 13% of the US population that is foreign-born!

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/09/28/chapter-5-u-s-foreign-born-population-trends/

That is a significant section of population who were raised in a foreign culture and who are rather than assimilating into an American culture, making American culture more foreign.  In 1970s the percentage of the US population who was foreign born was less than 5%.  That's pretty manageable, it's allows generational assimilation to occur doesn't cause massive social conflict, etc.  13% that is a lot.

And that is what has happened with the UK and how you get a Muslim Sadid Hacq for a Mayor of London.  Too large of a percentage of the population foreign-born and not enough time to generationally assimilate and bad things happen. 

As a side-note, in 1993 4% of the UK population was foreign-born, now it is 13% of the population.  That's a recipe for social discontent.

Edited June 25, 2016 by yjacket

[LeSellers]

On 6/24/2016 at 1:43 PM, anatess2 said:

And then, of course, God commands the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites - men, women, and children included - so that Israelites can live peaceably in the Promised Land.

That's only part of the story.

God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child, even the cattle, of the Canaanites because they had broken their covenant. He told Abraham that the land would be his (or, at least his posterity's) but not for 400 years because their iniquity was not (during his lifetime) full.

Quote

7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. 8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
…
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
…
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Yes, Israel needed to live in peace in the land, but that was not why God killed the Amorites (and the others) — it was because they had failed to keep the covenant.

Lehi

Edited June 25, 2016 by LeSellers

[mordorbund]

Elsewhere I've been hearing some commentary on the brexit as a manifestation of a spirit of nationalism. @Just_A_Guy - You've shared before that Trump's ascendancy echoes - not pre-WWII circumstances as the media likes to harp - but echoes pre-WWI circumstances with the rise of nationalism and populism. Does the brexit increase your concern?

[Guest MormonGator]

It's a beautiful thing. The people won over the elitists. When Tony Blair, John Major, Gordon Brown and David Cameron are for something, I am probably against it. I'm also stunned that Boris Johnson won the mayoralty of London-he seems much to right leaning for that city. It would be like Ron Paul winning the NYC mayors office. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

On 6/24/2016 at 0:10 PM, changed said:

What is American culture?  America is a melting pot - we celebrate the German October fest, and we celebrate Cinco de Mayo.  If someone owns a French restaurant, you will see French culture there - French flags, French food, French decorations - if you go to a Chinese area - China town has Chinese flags and food etc.  Same with Mexican. No one should have to give up their culture to come here - I think it's perfectly fine to be a Mexican-America, or French-American, or Mormon-American, or ____-American.  America is not a communist country where everyone has to "look the same" and walk to the same beat - it's a country where everyone is free to be who they want to be.

Cinco de Mayo, Octoberfest, French restaurants are part of America, but they are not defining elements of American Culture.

Here is the best statement I've ever found to define American culture:

Quote

"I do not choose to be a common man. It is my right to be uncommon. I seek opportunity to develop whatever talents God gave me—not security. I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me. I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed. I refuse to barter incentive for a dole. I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stale calm of utopia. I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout. I will never cower before any earthly master nor bend to any threat. It is my heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid; to think and act myself, enjoy the benefit of my creations and to face the world boldly and say—'This, with God's help, I have done.' All this is what it means to be an American."

To keep America from failing we must know:

Quote

1. Politics only with principle
2. Pleasure only with conscience 
3. Knowledge only by effort
4. Wealth only through work
5. No business but with morality
6. Science inclusive of humanity
7. Worship based on self-sacrifice

Sadly, I believe "America" has died.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Guest

[Just_A_Guy]

23 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Elsewhere I've been hearing some commentary on the brexit as a manifestation of a spirit of nationalism. @Just_A_Guy - You've shared before that Trump's ascendancy echoes - not pre-WWII circumstances as the media likes to harp - but echoes pre-WWI circumstances with the rise of nationalism and populism. Does the brexit increase your concern?

I think I've compared Trump as an individual to Wilhelm II.  Not sure about the broader climate, though.  IMHO there's a difference between nationalism versus jingoism--the former, I think, is generally a good thing so long as it doesn't cross the line into the latter.  This was a pretty close vote, and for the foreseeable future I think there will always be a multinationalist faction that keeps Britain from doing anything truly disastrous. 

Europe has managed to go through peaceful and/or prosperous periods even without an EU; and if Britain has finally decided that it need not commit cultural-political suicide merely because Madame Merkel and some of her friends in the UK's Labor party have decreed that it should--I say good for them, as long as they dont get too crazy.  To coin a phrase, "this is what democracy looks like" . . .

[yjacket]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Here is the best statement I've ever found to define American culture:

To keep America from failing we must know:

Sadly, I believe "America" has died.

Awesome quote . . .who is it by?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

 

Sadly, I believe "America" has died.

It hasn't, that's why we are still here. That doesn't mean things need to be changed, but if we think "America" has died, what's the point of doing anything political, even talking about it? 

[yjacket]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It hasn't, that's why we are still here. That doesn't mean things need to be changed, but if we think "America" has died, what's the point of doing anything political, even talking about it? 

The point is that you fight for the right thing no matter what.  It doesn't matter that the old American culture has died; those who have the remnants of the old American culture in them fight on because that is just what you do. That is how you carry on in some small part the old America.

Life isn't so much about the results, because in the long run we are all dead. Life is about the struggle, the character you build, who you become by doing the right thing over and over and over again no matter the consequences no matter the chances of success. 

[LeSellers]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

if we think "America" has died, what's the point of doing anything political, even talking about it? 

Because I have 33 grandchildren who deserve the USA I knew growing up, and even more than that. In the final word of William Wallace, they deserve "freedom!"

Lehi