Why did Satan want Jesus crucified?

[Guest]

How stupid is Satan? Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind. Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind. Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

How stupid is Satan? Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind. Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind. Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

Have you read Paradise Lost? Yes, I know it's not scripture but it shows a Satan that is far from stupid-he's prideful. 

Should be a message to all of us. 

[LeSellers]

49 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind.

Indeed. We all know the scripture "give me therefore thine honor."

49 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind.

This is not so clear. He was kicked out of the Kingdom, but when, in relationship to the presentation of the Great Plan of Happiness, is not explicitly revealed. It is possible that he was expelled before Jesus presented His Father's plan to us. Remember, it was his rebellion that got him rejected, not his plan, per se.

49 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

I believe he did not.

Even if he did, however, his ego, his pride, got in the way of his knowledge. He believes he is better than Jesus, better than Father, and better than any of us. Recall his words in the Temple where he imagines that none can challenge him.

Lehi

Edited July 27, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

... it shows a Satan that is far from stupid-he's prideful. 

Should be a message to all of us. 

 

31 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Even if he did, however, his ego, his pride, got in the way of his knowledge. He believes he is better than Jesus, better than Father, and better than any of us. Recall his words in the Temple where he imagines that none can challenge him.

I see a common thread here.

Another trait -- complete lack of faith.  Sure that was the plan.  But there's just no way that's going to work.  I just want to see Him suffer as much as possible.  And, BOY! am I going to give it to him.  He's going to get punished for doing things against MY will.  And He'll do it thinking He's going to win some sort of victory.  HAAH!!  I'll show them.

I'm sure he's actually much more calculated and reasonable sounding, at least in his own mind.  But you get the idea.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm sure he's actually much more calculated and reasonable sounding, at least in his own mind.  But you get the idea.

Kevin Spacey in the Usual Suspects "The greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist." 

Great quote, but the greatest trick the devil played was convincing others that it's better to lead in Hell rather then serve in Heaven. Milton presents Satan as a charismatic enticer. Anyone who thinks that Miltons Lucifer is unappealing has never read Paradise Lost. And that's exactly the point. After all, Lucifer is a tempter. 

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I see a common thread here.

Chalk it up to luck and move on. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Kevin Spacey in the Usual Suspects "The greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist." 

Spacey was plagiarizing Nephi.

2 Nephi 28:22

Quote

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

Lehi

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Milton presents Satan as a charismatic enticer...And that's exactly the point. After all, Lucifer is a tempter. 

I think we could take a page out of his playbook

"Don't you want to come to Youth Night this week?  C'mon.  Everybody's doing it."

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think we could take a page out of his playbook

"Don't you want to come to Youth Night this week?  C'mon.  Everybody's doing it."

I just finished a biography on Milton by Neil Forsyth. It was a good introduction if anyone is interested. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Spacey was plagiarizing Nephi.

2 Nephi 28:22

Lehi

But that's only because Joseph Smith plagiarized Whitman.  

[Rhoades]

If he didn't learn it in the premortal world, he could have learned it later as it was taught on earth before it happened.  For example, 1 Nephi 11:33.  

Like @MormonGator said, it's pride.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Rhoades

[Blackmarch]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

How stupid is Satan? Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind. Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind. Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

If you've lost the war woukdn't you try doing your darndest to do as much damage to your opponent as you could? If Christ was mortal, would he not be affected by age? Sooner or later he would die.

I also question on how much the devil exactly knew.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

How stupid is Satan? Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind. Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind. Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

I think it was part of his strategy to destroy faith for the rest of God's children. Along with everything else he does, if he can spin and leverage and get  people to believe the message that God died or that Jesus was just a mortal man and did not really resurrect, he has them misdirected away from God.

Edited July 27, 2016 by CV75

[LeSellers]

9 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

If you've lost the war woukdn't you try doing your darndest to do as much damage to your opponent as you could? If Christ was mortal, would he not be affected by age? Sooner or later he would die.

No, He wouldn't have died due to old age. He was immortal, and, because sinless, eternal.

His mortality, a requirement of the office of Redeemer*, was not the more powerful of the genetic gifts from His parents. His Father, God Himself, gave Him immortality, and that was, by far, the dominant trait.
* He must have had the competing and mutually exclusive abilities to live and to die. Without mortality, He could not have made the sacrifice, and without immortality, His death would not have been a sacrifice.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it was part of his strategy to destroy faith for the rest of God's children.

This is also an important concept: a God Who died?!? Not much of a God, was He?

Lehi

[Rhoades]

10 hours ago, Rhoades said:

If he didn't learn it in the premortal world, he could have learned it later as it was taught on earth before it happened.  For example, 1 Nephi 11:33.  

Like @MormonGator said, it's pride.

While studying the New Testament this morning I came across Luke 24:6-7 which reminded me of this thread:  "... remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."

That got me thinking more about how much Satan knew.  And I found these scriptures...

D&C 10:43 -- "I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil."

Moses 4:6 -- "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Satan apparently doesn't know everything that God knows and he does get outwitted.

He surely knows he's not as wise as God and he knows he's already lost, and that fuels his pride and anger.  Like a prideful tantrum-throwing angered maniac he's trying to destroy anybody he can.  He's already lost the war, but he's still battling for individual souls.  He's proud of his battle victories at the time of Christ's rejection and crucifixion, which included an apostle and many others.

[estradling75]

To me the question suffers from the fact that hindsight is 20/20...  It is incredibly easy to look back and see exactly what was necessary and wonder why Satan acted the way he did.

But to truly understand what is going on in the past we need to look forward... Who here can predict exactly what is necessary to trigger the Second Coming?  We all have the scriptures, we have the promise that the Lord will do nothing without revealing it to his prophets...  We have a general and over arching idea and pattern...  But why can't we tell the precise and exact events and actions?

The idea that any one could or should have known the precise events that would cause the fall or the precise events of the Atonement (besides God) before they happened, even with all the scriptural references and prophecy, flies in the face of our own current blindness.  They could no more see it when it was in front of them then we can see what is in front of us.

For all that Satan might know and understand he is same boat with the rest of us in being blind to future events.

[FogCity]

13 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

How stupid is Satan? Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind. Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind. Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

I imagine one of the reasons that Satan wanted Jesus killed at a relatively young age was to crush the momentum of the gospel and foundation of Christ's Church.  Allowing Christ to remain on the Earth for more than his 33 years may have greatly strengthened the gospel.  Seems like either way it was a lose - lose situation for the Father of Lies.

I find it difficult to comprehend how Lucifer could have fallen from such a lofty status in the pre-existence and choose a life of misery for eternity.  This may be blasphemous, but I've wondered if the role of Satan could have been part of the initial design and that Lucifer is simply fulfilling his role in that church calling?

[Guest]

What if he didn't "want" Jesus to die?  What if all he wanted was to get people to do evil things to Jesus so he could make sure THEY failed to obtain glory, but the price was that the Plan would be fulfilled.  That was a price he was willing to pay since it would be fulfilled anyway.  The only question was who would accept Him and who wouldn't?

[theSQUIDSTER]

Perhaps it shouldn't make sense to anyone of faith why Satan does what he does.  Satan is a vessel of wrath, the father of lies.  I believe it's reasonable to assume that he has absolutely NO faith left in him.  Pride, wrath and lies are all that's left of him.  He is consumed by these traits.  It's who he has become.  It's who he now IS.  I don't know if he's actually even capable of seeing or knowing he's lost the war.  You have to be able to see some light and embrace it in order to understand some truth.  Darkness doesn't comprehend light.  How can a father of lies drowning in an ocean of lies ever comprehend truth and things as they really were, are and will be?  If you reject agency completely can you still have agency?  I guess what I'm saying is that what appears obvious to someone still exercising faith would not be obvious at all to someone who's not.  Perhaps it's an ultimate incomprehensible irony that Satan can spin lies, know they are lies, and STILL choose to embrace them instead of any truth.  A profound blindness envelopes him.  How dark, how awful, thankfully, we can't fully comprehend.. and hopefully never will.. 

[theSQUIDSTER]

duplicate 

Edited July 27, 2016 by theSQUIDSTER
Duplicate

[Traveler]

 

17 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

How stupid is Satan? Satan was there in the grand council in heaven when it was chosen who would redeem mankind. Satan knew Jesus dying would conquer death so why did Satan influence the Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus, thus destroying Satan's chance of conquering mankind. Did Satan realize what he was doing when trying to get Christ killed?

 

There are a number of assumptions that I believe are incorrect and lead to wrong conclusions.  As we understand, much of the atonement for humanities sins was faced in Gethsemane – this was, according to my understanding mostly spiritual anguish flooding into a physical being.   Satan knew that Jesus would also die, he could not change that – But he could make it as painful and difficult as possible; so he set up for Jesus the most painful and punishing form of death ever devised in human experience.  Perhaps crucifixion was inspired and perfected by the inspiration of Satan specifically for Jesus.  

I do not think I personally would challenge Satan as being stupid – my personal experience is that he has incentive enough in tempting me and causing grief; rather I would think such a challenge to be more the example of what stupid is.

 

The Traveler

[FogCity]

2 hours ago, theSQUIDSTER said:

Perhaps it shouldn't make sense to anyone of faith why Satan does what he does.  Satan is a vessel of wrath, the father of lies.  I believe it's reasonable to assume that he has absolutely NO faith left in him.  Pride, wrath and lies are all that's left of him.  He is consumed by these traits.  It's who he has become.  It's who he now IS.  I don't know if he's actually even capable of seeing or knowing he's lost the war.  You have to be able to see some light and embrace it in order to understand some truth.  Darkness doesn't comprehend light.  How can a father of lies drowning in an ocean of lies ever comprehend truth and things as they really were, are and will be?  If you reject agency completely can you still have agency?  I guess what I'm saying is that what appears obvious to someone still exercising faith would not be obvious at all to someone who's not.  Perhaps it's an ultimate incomprehensible irony that Satan can spin lies, know they are lies, and STILL choose to embrace them instead of any truth.  A profound blindness envelopes him.  How dark, how awful, thankfully, we can't fully comprehend.. and hopefully never will.. 

interesting point. 

I think always believed that Satan knows that he's on the losing side of this battle, but that isn't necessarily true.  True opposition in all things requires Lucifer to be focused and have Faith in himself.  It makes much more sense that he believes he's currently winning the battle and his purpose is to prove to the Father that Christ's plan is/has failed.

[mordorbund]

I don't see it as God being more clever than Satan. Satan initiated the Fall because "he knew not the mind of God". I think he genuinely does not understand the power of sacrifice.

And just for fun, the Gospel of Nicodemus (an apocryphal account of Jesus' descent to hell and freeing the righteous dead there) contains some of the bickering among the forces of evil, raising some of the same questions you do.

Quote

 

Satan the prince and chief of death said unto Hell: Make thyself ready to receive Jesus who boasteth himself that he is the Son of God, whereas he is a man that feareth death, and sayeth: My soul is sorrowful even unto death. And he hath been much mine enemy, doing me great hurt, and many that I had made blind, lame, dumb, leprous, and possessed he hath healed with a word: and some whom I have brought unto thee dead, them hath he taken away from thee.

Hell answered and said unto Satan the prince: Who is he that is so mighty, if he be a man that feareth death? for all the mighty ones of the earth are held in subjection by my power, even they whom thou hast brought me subdued by thy power. If, then, thou art mighty, what manner of man is this Jesus who, though he fear death, resisteth thy power? If he be so mighty in his manhood, verily I say unto thee he is almighty in his god-head, and no man can withstand his power. And when he saith that he feareth death, he would ensnare thee, and woe shall be unto thee for everlasting ages.

But Satan the prince of Tartarus said: Why doubtest thou and fearest to receive this Jesus which is thine adversary and mine? For I tempted him, and have stirred up mine ancient people of the Jews with envy and wrath against him. I have sharpened a spear to thrust him through, gall and vinegar have I mingled to give him to drink, and I have prepared a cross to crucify him and nails to pierce him: and his death is nigh at hand, that I may bring him unto thee to be subject unto thee and me.

Hell answered and said: Thou hast told me that it is he that hath taken away dead men from me. For there be many which while they lived on the earth have taken dead men from me, yet not by their own power but by prayer to God, and their almighty God hath taken them from me. Who is this Jesus which by his own word without prayer hath drawn dead men from me? Perchance it is he which by the word of his command did restore to life Lazarus which was four days dead and stank and was corrupt, whom I held here dead.

Satan the prince of death answered and said: It is that same Jesus.

When Hell heard that he said unto him: I adjure thee by thy strength and mine own that thou bring him not unto me. For at that time I, when I heard the command of his word, did quake and was overwhelmed with fear, and all my ministries with me were troubled. Neither could we keep Lazarus, but he like an eagle shaking himself leaped forth with all agility and swiftness, and departed from us, and the earth also which held the dead body of Lazarus straightway gave him up alive. Wherefore now I know that that man which was able to do these things is a God strong in command and mighty in manhood, and that he is the saviour of mankind. And if thou bring him unto me he will set free all that are here shut up in the hard prison and bound in the chains of their sins that cannot be broken, and will bring them unto the life of his god head for ever.

And as Satan the prince, and Hell, spoke this together, suddenly there came a voice as of thunder and a spiritual cry: Remove, O princes, your gates, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.

When Hell heard that he said unto Satan the prince: Depart from me and go out of mine abode: if thou be a mighty man of war, fight thou against the King of glory. But what hast thou to do with him?

And Hell cast Satan forth out of his dwelling.

Then said Hell unto his wicked ministers: Shut ye the hard gates of brass and put on them the bars of iron and withstand stoutly, lest we that hold captivity be taken captive.

... Then did the King of glory in his majesty trample upon death, and laid hold on Satan the prince and delivered him unto the power of Hell, and drew Adam to him unto his own brightness.

Then Hell, receiving Satan the prince, with sore reproach said unto him: O prince of perdition and chief of destruction, Beelzebub, the scorn of the angels and spitting of the righteous why wouldest thou do this? Thou wouldest crucify the King of glory and at his decease didst promise us great spoils of his death: like a fool thou knewest not what thou didst. For behold now, this Jesus putteth to flight by the brightness of his majesty all the darkness of death, and hath broken the strong depths of the prisons, and let out the prisoners and loosed them that were bound. And all that were sighing in our torments do rejoice against us, and at their prayers our dominions are vanquished and our realms conquered, and now no nation of men feareth us any more. And beside this, the dead which were never wont to be proud triumph over us, and the captives which never could be joyful do threaten us.

O prince Satan, father of all the wicked and ungodly and renegades wherefore wouldest thou do this? They that from the beginning until now have despaired of life and salvation-now is none of their wonted roarings heard, neither doth any groan from them sound in our ears, nor is there any sign of tears upon the face of any of them. O prince Satan, holder of the keys of hell, those thy riches which thou hadst gained by the tree of transgression and the losing of paradise, thou hast lost by the tree of the cross, and all thy gladness hath perished. When thou didst hang up Christ Jesus the King of glory thou wroughtest against thyself and against me. Henceforth thou shalt know what eternal torments and infinite pains thou art to suffer in my keeping for ever.

O prince Satan, author of death and head of all pride, thou oughtest first to have sought out matter of evil in this Jesus: Wherefore didst thou adventure without cause to crucify him unjustly against whom thou foundest no blame, and to bring into our realm the innocent and righteous one, and to lose the guilty and the ungodly and unrighteous of the whole world?

 

[Traveler]

In general we often think that Satan does not understand things or is not smart enough to figure things out - when we realize that G-d's plan of salvation takes into account things that Satan has done and will do.  Satan (as are all intelligent beings) are limited to the boundaries of their circumstance.   Even G-d must be obedient to principles, laws and covenants that he makes.  In a previous post I pointed out that Satan took every advantage that he was allowed to most effectively “burse the heel” of Christ.  He knew that Jesus would die regardless of whatever he (Satan) did – so what he did was the most effective within the parameters of the laws and covenants in which Satan is governed in order to preserve his power and influences.

We see the same very clever and intelligent methods employed in the fall.  He knew that the plan of G-d required that Adam and Eve fall.  He knew that regardless of what he did that the fall would indeed take place -  So in a very brilliant and intelligent move, for him and his intent, he brought about the fall in a manner to give him the best possible advantages under the circumstances by creating a wedge of mistrust between the man and the woman.  Rather than let the man and the woman determine together to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – Satan engineered a means to separate the man and the woman in the decision.  This convincing of the man and the woman to think and act separately on critical matters that have profound effect on both of them and their marriage covenant – has given Satan many advantages in his war against G-d even as we humans struggle with the covenant of marriage in these last days.

Satan is a very intelligent and brilliant foe that will defeat any human that does not fully trust G-d – even for the smallest of moments – he will exploit the smallest flaw and destroy anyone that allows it to be so – or does not allow in any way that G-d protect them.  It is for this reason that I fear greatly what will shortly come to pass of this once great nation that as a nation trusted G-d but not now.  That as Satan has found means to create the greater suffering of even the Son of G-d at the hands of wicked men who knew not the mind of G-d – so shall the blood even the most noble of Saints spill over the sorrows of mankind in the last days.

 

The Traveler