Why do we need a sacrificed mediator?

[mordorbund]

17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well, he is a founding father, so he should just be able to change the law right?  He created it, so he should just be able to alter it, right?   I mean, if he can't change it then doesn't that mean that he is powerless after all?

Doggone it you're right! C'mon guys, we can change the governing laws. These Articles of Confederation just aren't getting the job done. Time for change!

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Doggone it you're right! C'mon guys, we can change the governing laws. These Articles of Confederation just aren't getting the job done. Time for change!

Yes!  Duterte for US President!

 

[tesuji]

54 minutes ago, tesuji said:

First, you are correct that it is all about becoming a Celestial person. That's how I understand it, anyway. God does't just tap us with a magic wand at the end to make us Celestial. We become that way by obeying God's commandments.

 

However, you cannot earn your way back to God by yourself. You cannot exalt yourself, not by any power you have and not by your deeds alone.

 

By being born onto this earth, you are subject to temptation and ignorance, and you will sin. It's part of the plan. However, no unclean thing can be with God, and only Christ can take away that sin to make you clean. We are saved by grace after all we can do, the Book of Mormon says.

 

I think of it like travelling from America to Europe. I can drive myself to the airport, but I do not have an air plane and I don't know how to fly it. Christ is like the pilot who has a plane, to get us across a gulf we cannot cross on our own.

 

The universe obeys God because he is just. If he acted unjustly in any way, the spirits and the elements that make up the cosmos would no longer obey him. He would cease to be God, as the Book of Mormon says.

 

The atonement provides a special exception the general rule of God being perfectly just. God and the cosmos say that you and I are unclean and unworthy (despite all we can do), but if Christ, the Son of God who did no sin, loved us enough to suffer infinitely for us, then for his sake we will allow the sinners to come back to God. If the sinners obey strict guidelines (commandments).

By the way, the parts I've red in what I said may not be strictly doctrinal. I've heard these explained this way and it seems to make sense. 

The atonement is a mystery we don't fully understand.

However, the main point is that you can't get back to God by your works alone. A Savior is needed.

Quote

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

The greek word here for "glory" (as in falling short of) is doxa, which can mean the following:

opinion, judgment, view

opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone:
in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

splendour, brightness:
of the moon, sun, stars;
magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace

majesty:
a thing belonging to God;
the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity

a thing belonging to Christ:
the kingly majesty of the Messiah;
the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty

of the angels:
as apparent in their exterior brightness

a most glorious condition, most exalted state:
of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth;
the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

Another great quote that explains how we need Christ's atonement

Quote

 In mortality we all are tempted by the flesh. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. And we can increase our capacity to overcome the desires of the flesh and temptations, as described in this verse, “through the atonement of Christ.”

When we make mistakes—as we transgress and sin—we are able to overcome such weakness through the redeeming and cleansing power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-a-bednar_strength-lord/

This is an awesome talk - worth reading the whole thing, about the enabling power of the atonement.

[Blueskye2]

16 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Can someone help me understand why we would need a being to perform an atonement and be sacrificed for us and be our mediator?  I see questions similar to this often, but I feel I look at it uniquely and have not seen answers beyond the standard Sunday School answers.  

Here is the way I see it.

The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings.  We become Celestial beings by practice.  By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings).

No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference).  No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one.  I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being.  He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned).

I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me.  First, fall short of what?  Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die.  Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person.  Only practicing being a different person does that.  The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already.  Second, the justice thing.  Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?  I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.  If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure I covered possible common answers and explain exactly why I can't understand it.  This is something that has bothered me for a long time so I want to thank anyone in advance for any replys.  

Romans 5:12-21King James Version (KJV)

¹² Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

¹⁴ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

¹⁶ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

¹⁷ For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

¹⁸ Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

¹⁹ For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

²⁰ Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

²¹ That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

----

 

Regarding verse 19, it is where we see that our disobedience is replaced by Jesus' obedience. Jesus provides a unique sacrifice, that accomplishes the substitution of the suffering servant.

Isaiah 53

¹⁰ Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

¹¹ He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

-----

 

Jesus has united himself, in some way, to every person. It is called the "paschal mystery". Not mystery, as in who-done-it, but as in, something that God has revealed and God's ways are unknown to us.

I think it might help to view our redemption as OUR redemption. As we see in Isaiah, a PEOPLE are redeemed. Of course, we are redeemed individually, and as a PEOPLE. The New Covenant in Christ, is with all mankind, making all people, God's people.

Perhaps taking the covenantal view might help as well.  Where the Israelites sacrificed an unblemished lamb for the atonement of the people (themselves) under the Abrahamic covenant, Jesus is the sacrificial lamb, and He is the New Covenant.

Our redemption is not for God's benefit, it is for us. Our sin's require justification before God, as no unclean thing can be in the presence of God. We do not have the means to redeem ourselves. Only the divine Son of God, who willingly sacrificed Himself out of love, for us, could redeem us. There is no other who could.

-----

And last, regarding the Law, the Law was given for the perfection of God's people, but men are in infirmity (Heb 7:28). The law perfected nothing (Hebrews 7:19). It is the oath of the Law that makes the Son, who is a permanent consecration. (Hebrews 7:28).

Edited August 9, 2016 by Blueskye2

[LeSellers]

30 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Our redemption is not for God's benefit

Not so sure about that, at least not in that Father derives nothing from our redemption.

We Saints have a scripture where we learn that it is the work and glory of god to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Moreover, as His sons and daughters, it is only common sense that He wants us back in His home.

So, like any father, when we do what is best for us, He takes joy in it.

Lehi

Edited August 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[Blueskye2]

20 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Not so sure about that, at least not in that Father derives nothing from our redemption.

We Saints have a scripture where we learn that it is the work and glory of god to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Moreover, as His sons and daughters, it is only common sense that He wants us back in His home.

So, lke any father, when we do what is best for us, He takes joy in it.

Lehi

Sure, I believe that we are created to be with God. It is not, however, a requirement for God, that He redeem us. He could have left us in our sins. We don't merit it. We don't earn it. It is solely a gift, from God, freely given out of love, for our benefit. It is in God's definitive Revelation, Jesus Christ, who reveals God's plan and desire for all to live with Him in eternity.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Blueskye2

[Awakened]

Eternal does not mean never-ending. It means godly. Eternal punishment = God's punishment. A very terrible punishment but a limited one all the same because we do not commit infinite sins. We commit a GREAT amount of sin in total, absolutely. But not an infinite amount. So we don't really need to suffer for an infinite amount of time. Our agony though would be LIKE as a flame ascending up forever and ever.

I also want to add a very important thing. Christ does not only pay the demands of justice, he SANCTIFIES us. What does that mean though? It means that he is literally making us steadily into better people. So the Atonement's purpose is twofold. To pay the debt and to make our motives and actions and etc. pure. Being turned into eternal beings through Him. And I think that is where OP is confused. He is only seeing the debts paid and not the changing power as well of the Atonement and of Christ.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Awakened

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, Blueskye2 said:

Sure, I believe that we are created to be with God. It is not, however, a requirement for God, that He redeem us. He could have left us in our sins. We don't merit it. We don't earn it. It is solely a gift, from God, freely given out of love, for our benefit. It is in God's definitive Revelation, Jesus Christ, who reveals God's plan and desire for all to live with Him in eternity.

Maybe true in a general sense. But God promised us he would redeem us if we obeyed him. It was part of the deal, when we supported his plan of salvation in the war in heaven.

Quote

Heavenly Father knew the grave dangers we would face on our journey through life, but He remains resolute in His desire to have each and every one of His children return home. Therefore, He gave us time—time to work out our mistakes, time to overcome our sins, time to prepare for reunion. “There was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God” (Alma 12:24).

But Heavenly Father knew that even if we exerted every ounce of energy, we could not make it home without divine help. Therefore, He promised, “We will provide a savior for you!” (see 1 Ne. 10:4; 1 Ne. 13:40; Moses 1:6; 2 Ne. 25:23).

In fulfillment of this promise, Jesus Christ came during the meridian of time, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Eternal Father, in the flesh. He walked the paths and byways of mortality so He could “know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities” (Alma 7:12; see also Alma 7:11; Ether 12:27; D&C 20:22; D&C 62:1). There is not one vexation, anxiety, or suffering unfamiliar to Him. Though He is without sin yet knows He each and every one of our griefs that He might be able to help us (see Isa. 53:3–6).

Christ bridged the gulf between the mortal and immortal. The grave no longer holds its captives; justice can be satisfied through mercy; the wondrous Atonement, infinite and eternal in scope, is in place (see Alma 34:8–10, 14–16). Christ is the resurrected Lord, our Savior and Redeemer. 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/04/welcome-home?lang=eng&_r=1

Quote

I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say

Doctrine and Covenants 82:3

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[Jane_Doe]

17 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Can someone help me understand why we would need a being to perform an atonement and be sacrificed for us and be our mediator?  I see questions similar to this often, but I feel I look at it uniquely and have not seen answers beyond the standard Sunday School answers.  

Here is the way I see it.

The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings.  We become Celestial beings by practice.  By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings).

No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference).  No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one.  I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being.  He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned).

I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me.  First, fall short of what?  Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die.  Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person.  Only practicing being a different person does that.  The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already.  Second, the justice thing.  Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?  I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.  If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure I covered possible common answers and explain exactly why I can't understand it.  This is something that has bothered me for a long time so I want to thank anyone in advance for any replys.  

@jasonnooson

Your OP question here is very in depth one, and very multi-faceted.  Honestly, I find the currency "I owe money" angles not so helpful for addressing this subject.   I'd rather run with your current Olympic analogy--

"Bob" wants to be an Olympic athlete (aka celestial being) on the soccer team (because this is a team effort).  On day one of training, Bob is trying to listen to his coach, but screws up, and kicks the ball in the wrong direction: right into his teammate's skull, shattering it.  Teammate then dies.  Bob, shattered by the trauma of killing his friend, falls to pieces and never plays soccer again, let alone as an Olympian.  

That's what happens when we are in charge, even the coach (Christ) sitting on the sidelines telling us what to do.

It's a good thing Christ is more than a sit-on-the-sidelines coach!  In addition to coaching us, Christ runs in as the Great Physician, healing the teammate's shattered skull: using His great and marvelous power to save that boy's life.  He knows what to do: He learned it all, He felt all the wounds, He's taken all of the pain upon Himself, and can Heal any wound.  The teammate not only lives- but is better than ever, reshaped and marveling at Christ's power.  Teammate embraces Him, and goes on to be a fantastic Olympian.

But it's not only the teammate who Christ saves: He also saves Bob, whom without Christ in this critical moment would never have played soccer again.  Christ Heals Bob of the trauma caused by nearly killing his friend, absolving him of that guilt.  Christ then teaches Bob how to be better: how to control his power and direct his kicks to help the team and not hurt anyone else.  Christ doesn't do this from the sidelines-- He stands shoulder to shoulder with Bob, holding Bob as He demonstrates each motion again and again (because Christ's already won every single gold medal).  Working shoulder to shoulder with Christ as his coach, physician, teammate, and friend, Bob finally becomes the athlete he dreamed of being.

Does that make sense?  Why Bob needed Christ?

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Blueskye2 said:

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

Not so sure about that, at least not in that Father derives nothing from our redemption.

We Saints have a scripture where we learn that it is the work and glory of god to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Moreover, as His sons and daughters, it is only common sense that He wants us back in His home.

So, like any father, when we do what is best for us, He takes joy in it.

It is not, however, a requirement for God, that He redeem us. He could have left us in our sins. We don't merit it. We don't earn it. It is solely a gift, from God, freely given out of love, for our benefit.

And this is one significant place where Catholic (and most of Protestant) dogma is simply wrong.

God did not create us out of whim or caprice. We are His children. He does not need to redeem us, any more than we must breathe. But it is in our nature to breathe, and it is in His nature to redeem His creations, and, especially, His children (us). To be true to Himself, He must redeem us. That (among a few important "other things") is what makes Him God.

Lehi

Lehi

[Blueskye2]

15 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

And this is one significant place where Catholic (and most of Protestant) dogma is simply wrong.

God did not create us out of whim or caprice. We are His children. He does not need to redeem us, any more than we must breathe. But it is in our nature to breathe, and it is in His nature to redeem His creations, and, especially, His children (us). To be true to Himself, He must redeem us. That (among a few important "other things") is what makes Him God.

Lehi

Lehi

This is a significant misconception of LDS regarding other faiths. God is Love. God is Creator. These are two attributes of His nature. Our redemption reveals God's nature, that of Love. All of creation reveals His nature, that of Creator. Our own Creation, reveals God's nature, of Creator. Many Catholic theologians have expressed this in explicit terms of God could not, not Create. That the very existence of God is evident in what He has created, because it reveals who God is. This is not in opposition to what I said, which is describing another attribute of God's nature which is, that God does not need. He loves us, created us, because that is His nature. But God does not have a need to create or to redeem. It is not required that He do so. He can choose to express is natures of Creator and Love in other ways. 

I think this gets to the OP question, and a question that many people ponder, that of, God could have redeemed us in many ways, or any way, but did so with the Sacrifice of His Son. This reveals God's nature, His plan, His desires for us. But they are not needs, that He has. To be more specific, our Redemption fulfills our need! We NEED Jesus Christ. God has provided for us!

Edited August 9, 2016 by Blueskye2

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Blueskye2 said:

God does not have a need to create or to redeem. It is not required that He do so. He can choose to express is natures of Creator and Love in other ways. 

Any of which would, by revelation, make Him something less than God.

Lehi

Edited August 9, 2016 by LeSellers

[Blueskye2]

5 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Any of which would, by revelation, mamke Him something less than God.

Lehi

What an odd thing to say. Conversely, I see a God that needs something outside of Himself, as something less than God. 

[tesuji]

21 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

And this is one significant place where Catholic (and most of Protestant) dogma is simply wrong.

God did not create us out of whim or caprice. We are His children. He does not need to redeem us, any more than we must breathe. But it is in our nature to breathe, and it is in His nature to redeem His creations, and, especially, His children (us). To be true to Himself, He must redeem us. That (among a few important "other things") is what makes Him God.

LeSellers, to answer BlueSkye2's reply to this, I'm pretty sure I've heard some non-Mormons talk about God the way you are saying here. There are diverse beliefs out there, of course.

I'm not so sure we know much about what God is like, be we do know he is our father, he loves us, and has promised to redeem those who are obedient.

[anatess2]

41 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

What an odd thing to say. Conversely, I see a God that needs something outside of Himself, as something less than God. 

The gap is the teaching of the Law of Eternal Progression - something that is not taught in the Catholic Church.  It puts a slight difference in connotation to God's "need" in this discussion.

It is irrelevant to the OP though, so no need to expound on it.

[Blackmarch]

20 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Can someone help me understand why we would need a being to perform an atonement and be sacrificed for us and be our mediator?  I see questions similar to this often, but I feel I look at it uniquely and have not seen answers beyond the standard Sunday School answers.  

Here is the way I see it.

The Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by those of us who have BECOME Celestial beings.  We become Celestial beings by practice.  By training here on Earth and changing our hearts and minds by serving others and all of the other training guidlines we often call "commandments." (Meaning the commandments are simply the guidlines Heavenly Father has revealed that, if followed, will help us become Celestial beings).

No one can turn me into a Celestial being any more than someone can turn me into an Olympic Athlete (yes, the Olympics are going on so it seemed like a good reference).  No sacrifice or payment by another person could ever turn me into an Olympic Athlete unless I do what is required to become one.  I don't see how Christ suffering and dieing in any way changes me and turns me into a Celestial being.  He can give me guidence, the Holy Spirit can comfert me, I can follow Christ's example, but none of these things require the atonement (as far as the physical actions of the Atonement are concerned).

I know some will say "we all fall short, and Christ makes up the difference." Or "Justice must be met." But both of these make no sense to me.  First, fall short of what?  Either we are the kind of beings that belong in the Celestial Kingdom or not when we die.  Christ's suffering and death don't change what I have done in my life and make me a different person.  Only practicing being a different person does that.  The Atonement doesn't magically get me to love my fellow man if I haven't learned to do that already.  Second, the justice thing.  Why is our Heavenly Father restricted by some sort of justice?  I understand we can't get to the Celestial Kingdom unless we are the kind of beings that belong there, but what does this have to do with any sort of punishment that must be paid for?  If someone steals from me and then 10 years later they come to me and appologize for it but say they don't have the money to pay me back - I can just forgive them.  If I see they are not the same person they were when they stole from me I can just forgive them and tell them to forget about it.  If I can do that, why can't our Heavenly Father.  Why does he have to collect some payment whether he likes it or not?

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure I covered possible common answers and explain exactly why I can't understand it.  This is something that has bothered me for a long time so I want to thank anyone in advance for any replys.  

when we sinned we gave up what we had to pay with. christ payed enough to cover the practice period (more like probation period). secondly we don't get into the greatest kingdom till after the millenium (1000 year practice period)

[Blackmarch]

secondly christ had to pay enough that no one could possibly say that anyone he chooses to redeem, that such an action would be in any way unjust or in violation of law.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Blackmarch

[Edspringer]

10 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Edspringer,
Thank you for the post and for the numerous references.  
Just a couple additional points.
Referencing the paragraph which starts “But after the separation…”:  
If we follow all of Heavenly Father’s commandments, believe in Christ’s teachings and learn to be like him, why would we be devils?  We wouldn’t be devils, we would be like Christ. 1  I don’t see how some suffering in a garden changes the fact that we would not be devils, but Christ like.  
“But what power could do that?” How about the same being who created us.  Our Heavenly Father.  He is all powerful, but he couldn’t allow a Christ like being to return to him unless he performs a sacrifice of his Son?  To Whom did he sacrifice his son?  Who external to our Father unlocked the door and allowed our Father to accept the Christ like “devil” into his kingdom?  You would say “Christ”, but later you say that Christ got the power to perform the atonement from the Father. 2  So that becomes a circular argument.  
In reference to “We, for ourselves, can do nothing. Everything happens by and through the power of God Almighty, by and through the power of the atonement. Can our works make us go to Heaven? No, but there’s plenty to do on our own. Basically we have to align our will with the will of the Father, Who knows all.”:
At first you say we can do nothing, but then it says we must align our will to the will of the Father.  Which is it?  Our whole purpose for this life is to learn to align our will to the will of the Father.  That is way we have opportunities to learn here.  That is why the Brother of Jared was asked by Christ what he wanted him to do instead of just telling him how to fix his problem. 3 So if we have learned to align our will to the will of our all might Father in Heaven, why is our Father still not allowed to allow us into his kingdom without sacrificing his Son to….to what?
 

4 Thank you again for all of the references.  I will look into them.

1 - This is a teaching given by Jacob to illustrate what would have happened if there was no atonement. We would come to earth, die and be restored no more. Our spirits and bodies would be separate forever and we would become miserable, like the devil.

2 - 

No circular argument at all, my friend. Our Savior had all the attributes to perform the atonement because the Father gave Him power over death, so that’s one of the reasons He was so well qualified to perform an infinite atonement. The BOM doesn’t put it in a contradictory way, neither do I. It doesn’t lead us to confusion. The doctrine of the atonement is plainly taught in the BOM for everyone to understand it.  

3 and 4 - Please read, ponder and pray about the references I suggested. Ask our Father in Heaven to enlighten your understanding and touch your heart concerning the atonement. I'm sure He will answer your prayers, if they are sincere. 

Best wishes

[LeSellers]

9 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Our Savior had all the attributes to perform the atonement because the Father gave Him power over death, so that’s one of the reasons He was so well qualified to perform an infinite atonement.

It might be more accurate to say that He (Christ) inherited His power over death by virtue of the Father's DNA. There may be others out there who believe this, but as far as I have been able to tell, we're the only Christians who really believe that Jesus is the actual Son of the Father. (We do not know, in spite of a lot of speculation on the subject, exactly how that happened, but Mary's DNA gifted Him mortality, and Father's immortality, both traits essential to the sacrifice that makes the Atonement possible.)

Lehi

[LeSellers]

4 hours ago, zil said:

Oh, moderator!  Clean-up on Aisle 3!  

On this subject, would it be appropriate to "Report post" for these matters? The mods may or may not see every post.

Lehi

Edited August 10, 2016 by LeSellers

[zil]

5 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

On this subject, would it be appropriate to "Report post" for these matters? The mods may of may not see every post.

Lehi

No idea.  One of the reasons I didn't "report" Ed's posts was because I worry the system somehow uses that against his account.  But I just reported my own post.

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

No idea.  One of the reasons I didn't "report" Ed's posts was because I worry the system somehow uses that against his account.  But I just reported my own post.

I've reported a few of mine, but I have not checked back to see it anything happened.

Lehi

[estradling75]

40 minutes ago, zil said:

No idea.  One of the reasons I didn't "report" Ed's posts was because I worry the system somehow uses that against his account.  But I just reported my own post.

It is acceptable to report a post that is dups..

No such a report does not go on anyone's record...  Mods have to take official action against the poster for that to happen...

<Puts on Janitor Hat>Now give me a few minutes to clean this mess up

 

[Guest]

23 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Thank you for the reply.  Just an FYI, your opening can be taken as pretty condisending.  

Ok.  I can see that.  But, no, it was not intended to be.  So, I apologize for "sounding" like it.  But the fact remains that the standard Sunday School answers are a lot deeper than you give them credit for.  Give them a chance.  Don't just dismiss them as you apparently have already done.

23 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

Your first point basically can be summed up by saying "the reason you need the atonement is because you need the atonement."  Not very helpful.  Also, the reason you would be "worthy" is because you have become a Celestial person.

If that was what you got out of that portion of the response, you missed it or I didn't state it clearly.  I'll try to clarify.

Your premise (Olympic games) is based on the assumption that YOU do something to EARN the right to the Celestial Kingdom.  Your very statement that we obtain the Celestial Kingdom because we "achieve" celestial characteristics is in error.  We cannot achieve them, we cannot become Celestial on our own.  This is the basis of my point.  Once we've sinned, there is no way for us to do so.

And if you don't understand that point, that is where you need to dig.  Why can we not "achieve" or "become" just because we've sinned even once.  Take a close look at the scriptures EdSpringer suggested.  The answers are there.  But, again, the answers you seek are more spiritual than intellectual.  But you're trying to intellectualize the spiritual here.  And that is only so effective.

1. Once you sin, you cannot partake of anything of God.
2. Our ability to improve comes from God and not within ourselves.
3. Therefore, any sin removes our ability to improve.
4. If we cannot improve, we cannot ever "become" worthy of the Celestial Kingdom.

The only reason we can improve and become a Celestial person is that the Savior, through His Atonement, has bridged the gap that allows us access to those tools to become more Godly.  Without that bridge, there is no way to cross the chasm.

You're so used to being able to improve that you assumed it was an ability in and of yourself.  That simply isn't the case.  Give credit where credit is due.  Jesus Christ is the very reason you have that power.  

Quote

For you have not come thus far without relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

23 hours ago, jasonnooson said:

I never said there are no rules.

You made the statement that God is "limited" by justice.  If you believe this, you don't believe there are any rules.  

The fact that justice is an eternal principle is what means there are rules.  If we can forget about justice altogether, then we can forget about rules altogether.  They are inseparable.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Guest