What would be so bad about churches being taxed in America?

[Guest]

I mean all churches, not just the LDS church. Churches bring in billions of dollars every year and if they were taxed that money could really help the economy. The LDS church has billions of dollars and is not taxed, while I only have thousands of dollars and I'm taxed more than I can breathe. If the church was taxed, more tithing would not be required from the members, because 10 percent is a set amount. I honestly think it would be great for the American economy if all churches that brought in money were taxed. Also, it would allow the church to openly speak out about political issues finally.

[Vort]

Taxing churches would not improve the economy. At all. Zero. The problem with the economy is undisciplined spending. Tax revenue from churches would be a small drop in a very large bucket.

Consider also that many churches do charitable work. Taxes would cut directly into the churches' charitable spending. The likely outcomes are that (1) much of that charitable spending would not be replaced, resulting in a worse world; and, (2) that which was replaced would be replaced primarily by the government, which would be almost certain to do a less efficient job.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Taxing churches would not improve the economy. At all. Zero. The problem with the economy is undisciplined spending. Tax revenue from churches would be a small drop in a very large bucket.

Consider also that many churches do charitable work. Taxes would cut directly into the churches' charitable spending. The likely outcomes are that (1) much of that charitable spending would not be replaced, resulting in a worse world; and, (2) that which was replaced would be replaced primarily by the government, which would be almost certain to do a less efficient job.

Taxing churches would be a horrible, horrible idea for the reasons @Vort explained. 

[Guest]

You wouldn't be able to deduct tithing anymore... if you think you personally are overtaxed now, imagine not being able to deduct tithing.

 This is no excuse to not pay tithing.  But the deduction is still a very nice benefit, and its removal would be punishing the members (which unbelieving liberals think will cause members to pressure the first presidency to change policies and doctrines.  Of course we know this is silly, that policies and doctrines come from God and not President Monson, but Huffington Post type don't get this.)

Edited December 16, 2016 by DoctorLemon

[Guest]

Well how much is the LDS church worth? I'm sure it takes in billions from tithing every year and it owns City Creek Mall, other business ventures, and land.

[Larry Cotrell]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Taxing churches would not improve the economy. At all. Zero. The problem with the economy is undisciplined spending. Tax revenue from churches would be a small drop in a very large bucket.

Consider also that many churches do charitable work. Taxes would cut directly into the churches' charitable spending. The likely outcomes are that (1) much of that charitable spending would not be replaced, resulting in a worse world; and, (2) that which was replaced would be replaced primarily by the government, which would be almost certain to do a less efficient job.

Very true, Churches (whether they are LDS of not) help the community a lot. They give food to hungry people, find places for the homeless to sleep, etc. If you take money away from churches, it is almost as if you are taking money away that is aiding the community.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Very true, Churches (whether they are LDS of not) help the community a lot. They give food to hungry people, find places for the homeless to sleep, etc. If you take money away from churches, it is almost as if you are taking money away that is aiding the community.

Exactly. The awkward truth is that there is a St. Jude Childrens medical center but there isn't a Richard Dawkins medial center. 

[Guest MormonGator]

The other good thing? Giving to a church is voluntary. If you think the church (and no, I'm not talking about the LDS church. Just using the term church) is spending foolishly then guess what? No one is forcing you to give. So you can give to another charity. 

[Larry Cotrell]

Also, for small non-LDS churches extra money would typically come out of the pastor's already minimal income. Then he is forced to get a second job and isn't always available for things that come up like hospital visits, counseling members, or writing worship lists.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Also, for small non-LDS churches extra money would typically come out of the pastor's already minimal income. Then he is forced to get a second job and isn't always available for things that come up like hospital visits, counseling members, or writing worship lists.

Another great point. Many protestant pastors have wives and children to feed. 

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I'm sure it takes in billions from tithing every year and it owns City Creek Mall, other business ventures, and land.

City Creek Mall and other business ventures are taxed. They are Church owned taxable entities as they are public entities. Every business the Church owns is taxed.

[Guest]

But should the church be transparent with it's finances? Why or why not?

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

But should the church be transparent with it's finances? Why or why not?

Yes, absolutely. Churches (all of them, this is not just an LDS thing) are asking for money and they need to be open and honest with where it goes. 

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Yes, absolutely. Churches (all of them, this is not just an LDS thing) are asking for money and they need to be open and honest with where it goes. 

I agree.

[Anddenex]

The Church is more transparent with its finances than our government; however, personally I don't really care. I pay my tithing and don't thinking about it knowing these funds are in the hands of the Lord's servants. So either way, it doesn't matter to me. All I know what I see happening with tithing: temples, church buildings, funds extended to wards (youth activities, ward budgets, and plenty of other stuff) is good for me. I don't pay tithing with a caveat to the Lord, "Now show me what you are paying on...to the last dime."

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The Church is more transparent with its finances than our government

Isn't that the truth? 

The church is rightly becoming more open with everything (showing pictures of the seer stone Smith Jr used, showing what temple clothing looks like) and they will probably become more open with their finances soon too. It's a very good thing, it means they have nothing to hide. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I mean all churches, not just the LDS church. Churches bring in billions of dollars every year and if they were taxed that money could really help the economy. The LDS church has billions of dollars and is not taxed, while I only have thousands of dollars and I'm taxed more than I can breathe. If the church was taxed, more tithing would not be required from the members, because 10 percent is a set amount. I honestly think it would be great for the American economy if all churches that brought in money were taxed. Also, it would allow the church to openly speak out about political issues finally.

You do know what free market means, right?  I had thought you considered yourself a conservative.  But you're touting liberal principles.  Remember that when anti-Mormon sites highlight any financial fault with the Church it is because of the application of socialistic/communistic economic principles:

1) It's not fair that they have so much money and I don't.
2) Government would use that money to improve the economy and the Church just hoards it.
3) Why do they need so much money?  They should be able to get by with much less.
4) They're TOO RICH.

Take the communism out of it and what argument are you left with?

50 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Well how much is the LDS church worth? I'm sure it takes in billions from tithing every year and it owns City Creek Mall, other business ventures, and land.

The Church has a non-profit arms and for-profit arms.  The City Creek Mall is part of the for-profit arm.  They are already taxed.

Financially speaking, what would be the effect of taxing our church?  We'd be affected the worst.

The LDS Church would be affected more than any other faith if they were to start taxing churches.  We are one of the few churches that avoids debt as much as possible (the non-profit, tithing funded side).  I understood that we don't have any debt, but I believe we simply have a low debt ratio.  If anyone has hard info on that I'd appreciate it.  So, that means that we put a lot of money into savings.  The savings is then used to build more churches, temples, missions, etc.  If we were taxed, that savings rate would slow down tremendously.

So, the effect of taxation would be to force the Church to stop saving and use a loan to pay for its buildings outright.  Then much more of that money would go to line the pockets of bankers instead of "the economy" or "poor people" as you say.  Does that satisfy your socialist tendencies?

JEALOUSY:

You made the comparison between your income vs. the Church's income.  That's income.  What about expenses?  The Church's expenses are much greater than yours.  So, the income is much greater than yours.

You think $1 billion is a lot of money?  It is.  But the cost to maintain churches, temples, missions, canneries, BYU at three locations, and other facilities, sucks that $1B or $2B or more pretty fast.  IOW, contrary to the anti-Mormon sites that discuss this at length, the Church doesn't have money to burn.  It really doesn't make a profit when you consider all that it has to take care of.

24 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

But should the church be transparent with it's finances? Why or why not?

You say that as if it's not.  The Church is quite transparent.  But frankly, most people wouldn't even know how to read the accounting reports.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

Churches often are taxed on their properties.  The money they bring in is not taxed because it is a nonprofit.  Churches--religion--receives no more favor than :::cough::: Planned Parenthood.  In fact, the latter gets direct government subsidies.  It's a ridiculous fantasy that some secular fundamentalists nurture--that we Christians are free-loading on the American people. 

[Anddenex]

10 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Churches often are taxed on their properties.  The money they bring in is not taxed because it is a nonprofit.  Churches--religion--receives no more favor than :::cough::: Planned Parenthood.  In fact, the latter gets direct government subsidies.  It's a ridiculous fantasy that some secular fundamentalists nurture--that we Christians are free-loading on the American people. 

A-men PC!

[zil]

@Zarahemla, I'm answering you by addressing the sorts of accusations Carb cited, which typify your own accusations or complaints or questions.

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You do know what free market means, right?  I had thought you considered yourself a conservative.  But you're touting liberal principles.  Remember that when anti-Mormon sites highlight any financial fault with the Church it is because of the application of socialistic/communistic economic principles:

1) It's not fair that they have so much money and I don't.

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

2) Government would use that money to improve the economy and the Church just hoards it.

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

3) Why do they need so much money?  They should be able to get by with much less.

John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

 3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

 7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

4) They're TOO RICH.

Malachi 3:8 ¶Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

==== END OF QUOTES =====

If you feel you don't have sufficient for your needs, stop thinking about money and think about obeying the Lord and about becoming the best person you can be - the best son, brother, Elder, neighbor, home teacher, employee, stranger, etc.  Excel in all the ways you are able to excel - not because it will get you something other than being the best you, but because being the best you is what you want to be.  Do this, and blessings will pour down on you.  What sort of blessings and when is God's decision, but everything I know and have experienced tells me they will come.  Don't worry about what they are or when they'll come.  Worry about being exceptional - in a virtuous, 13th Article of Faith kinda way.  (My experience also tells me that generosity pays for itself.)

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

But should the church be transparent with it's finances? Why or why not?

@Zarahemla, you live in the USA and the USA government takes TONS of your money away from you, and if you refuse they severely persecute you with fines and/or jail time.  When was the last time you looked thoroughly into what the USA government does with your money?      

And yet people complain about how a volunteer charitable organize with optional donations is has "lack of transparency".

(This vent wasn't really aimed at you @Zarahemla, more a general complaint every time this comes up).

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I mean all churches, not just the LDS church. Churches bring in billions of dollars every year and if they were taxed that money could really help the economy. The LDS church has billions of dollars and is not taxed, while I only have thousands of dollars and I'm taxed more than I can breathe. If the church was taxed, more tithing would not be required from the members, because 10 percent is a set amount. I honestly think it would be great for the American economy if all churches that brought in money were taxed. Also, it would allow the church to openly speak out about political issues finally.

I'm sure the LDS Church would do just fine if she were taxed (and I believe she is in some countries). The pros and cons are political and constitutional in nature. I'm sure the Church would oppose a change in tax-exempt status on grounds of the free exercise of religion of her members, in that their charitable giving is something in which the government does not rightly receive a percentage of.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

But should the church be transparent with it's finances? Why or why not?

I think transparency in religious fiscal matters and common consent (as a religious principle) in the Church have the same relationship as knowledge and faith. While it is difficult to tease out how much knowledge the Lord imparts before He requires the application of faith in gaining more (and vice-versa), the desire to believe is incipient to both knowledge and faith. In the same way, transparency (a quality and mechanism for expressing knowledge) and common consent (a quality and mechanism for expressing faith) stimulate each other so that both are sufficient. And since transparency is not the absence of color there are many multiple kinds or “colors” of transparency, often driven by the eye of the beholder in faith.

[Just_A_Guy]

No matter how well, or charitably, the Church handles its finances; there will always be something to complain about for those who are determined to complain.  In fact, that's probably why the Church closed its books--it was transparent up until 1959; and at that point there was some embarrassment because the Church had been building so many structures so fast that it had incurred staggering amounts of debt.  So the Church quit releasing its financials, and N. Eldon Tanner (and others) went to work getting the financial mess cleaned up (which, in the absence of officious intermeddlers and concern trolls, they were able to do in spectacular fashion).

As for tax-exempt status:  Churches are not tax-exempt because they are churches; they are tax-exempt because they have filed for IRS recognition as not-for-profit organizations.  One of the more amusing Facebook exchanges I had recently, involved someone who was kvetching that if the Mormons were going to influencing politics like a 527, they should be taxed like a 527.  Not realizing that 527s are actually . . . wait for it . . . tax-exempt. 

If you revoke tax-exempt status for churches but leave it for other secular nonprofits (the Red Cross, the Democratic and Republican National Committees, Planned Parenthood, labor unions, Habitat for Humanity, etc), then fundamentally what you're doing is penalizing otherwise-tax-exempt organizations for the sin of being religious in nature.  That would make the left very happy; but it would have a hard time passing constitutional muster.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[askandanswer]

On 12/17/2016 at 4:46 AM, Zarahemla said:

I mean all churches, not just the LDS church. Churches bring in billions of dollars every year and if they were taxed that money could really help the economy.

I suspect that the way the church spends its money does far more to help the economy, and society as a whole, than does the vast majority of government spending.