I Really Want To Believe But ...

[ChicagoGuy]

Hi all -- I have been on here off an on for like 4-5 years back during the Snow - Bat saga. LOL

My story is like this I have been Mormon since 1994 ( practicing [if that's what it's called ] since 1999 ).

Got married in SLC Temple in 00 - have two kids , go to church every Sunday with Family - even have a calling of some importance.

Still after all these years it feels like i am living a lie or at least in a sense. Even though I seriously have doubts inregards to the Temple/DC/POG and JS in general -- I do appreciate and like the set up of the Church and I have always believed Mormons to be the most trustworthly , naturally kind and generous people I have ever known. I agree with many if not most ( even all ) of the teachings of the Church - Even Follow the WOW , LOC , prayer , etc.

Fact is I am one of those people that actually REALLY WANT'S to believe in the church -- If I did it wouodmake my life so much easier with my family -- who for 7 years I have had to keep my true feelings toward the Church secret from. rust me I am not posting here to conflict other just looking for answers if anyone has them. I can't ask these questions of my Bishop ( His wife and Mine are best friends - and to be honest I just don't feel comfortable telling anyone in the church I talk to on a regular basis how I feel in fear being ostrisized or my wife finding out ).

Finally before I go further -- I have read and re read the scriptures and prayed alot. My answers or i guess at least the ones I am looking for just aren't there. The only answer I seem to get is literally a feeling of : If it makes you happy and makes you a better person for it - what does correct or incorrect matter : I guess that answer should be somewhat comforting but to be honest I am so much of a perfectionist about things like this that the details bother me -- and over time it builds and builds. it's like an itch where I know if i leave it be and forget it everyhting will be fine. If I scratch it it will just grow and make things worse. Yet I always end up scratching :wall:

My issues with the Church are signifigant. Please do not take offense I do not mean to offend anyone here - If i do in following statements/?'s I appologize in advance.

A. Joseph Smith/Prophets -- Why Did his story of the first vision so dramatically change over his time ? Why would he translate Plates that were faked ( Kinderhook or whatever those plates were called ) ? Many reports of his being a con Artist in youth as a Treasure seeker ? Joseph Smith having a fondness for Wine even said to of drank wine the day he died , JS Running for president , becoming a Free Mason , Salamander letter ? and a few more. -- One thing I could over look , 2 things likley but all these things unless they really do have simple explanations - just don't add up to Credibility.

B. Temple -- I love the temple and think they are great -- Just some of the ceremonies are Identical to ceremonies of Free Masonry - no coincidence that those ceremonies weren't added until JS became a Free Mason ? One of the biggest questions I have -- if this can't be disscussed here becasue you don't discuss temple things outside of it I uinderstand but it is a major barrier I have. The whole everyone gets the same Temple name for a certain day ? When I heard that it really effected me as it made when i got my endowment feel like a went through a factory and got my stamp rather then something special happened - It still was a great experience but it was cheapened by that at least with me.

C. POGP - Okay this is something I just cannot get my head around. The facsimiles have been translated by several egyptologists and never has the translation ever been anything near what JS translated them as. I mean nothing was even close. I mean I can even look at and tell something was up with the JS translation there. It was translated many time and every time was found to be just some Egyptian fella's Burial rite.

there are several other things but these are the one that pretty much give me the most issues. If anyone here has any real answers or just what they think about these things and back it up -- that would be really helpful. I know there are many very knolegable people on here that might have just that.

thanks all

ChicagoGuy

NOTE: If this was posted on the wrong board MOD's please feel free to move it where it needs to be.

[Doctor Steuss]

A. Joseph Smith/Prophets -- Why Did his story of the first vision so dramatically change over his time ?

Some stuff I've compiled on the FV (there's much more that I have, but this should be enough for a start):

Eldon Watson's fun stuff on the FV - Here he compares all of the versions, showing they harmonize.

From Terryl L. Givens, “By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture that Launched a New World Religion,” 2003 Paperback Edition (New York: Oxford University Press), pages 9-10:

Like many seekers of the Second Awakening, the young Smith found himself caught up in a scene of fervid revivalism and confused by the competing claims of ministers seeking converts. Deciding to pray for heavenly guidance, Smith had retired to the woods to ask God which church he should join. On that early spring morning in 1820, two personages, identifying themselves as God the Father and Jesus Christ, had appeared to the boy in a grove of trees on his father’s homestead (2). Though it may be true, as Mormon historian Richard Bushman writes, that in seeking such guidance “an answer for himself must be an answer for the entire world” and that with the vision “a new era in history began,” the boy’s initial reading was clearly less grandiose (3). His personal quest for spiritual guidance may have precipitated an epiphany on the order of Paul’s on the road to Damascus, but the important truths he learned were that his personal sins were forgiven and that he should hold himself aloof from the sects of his day. Although the timing and the naming of the event assign it absolute primacy in the founding of Mormonism, the vision was described by the young Joseph and apparently interpreted by him at the time as a private experience with no greater implications for the world at large or for Christian believers generally. In returning from the divine visitation, his understated remark, to his mother was simply, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” (4)

In fact, so far was Smith at this point from universalizing his private revelation that his own mother continued her affiliation with the Presbyterian church for another several years. Apparently Smith did share his experience with at least a few persons outside the family circle, for he later said that he was chastised by the clergy and ridiculed by neighbors for his claims (5). It was not until 1832 that he actually recorded the event, and he withheld publishing a version until 1842, just two years before his death (6). Accordingly, neither Smith nor Mormon missionaries made much mention of the vision in the early years of Mormonism (7). Even in the 1830 “Revelation on Church Organization and Government,” a kind of manifesto that heralded the church’s formal founding, the vision received no more than a passing, cryptic allusion to a time when “it was truly manifested unto this first elder [Joseph Smith] that he had received a remission of his sins.” (8 ) Clearly, the experience was understood at the time, and even scripturally portrayed, as part of a personal conversion narrative, not the opening scene in a new gospel dispensation.

Endnotes:

(2). Between 1832 and 1842, Joseph would write or dictate several accounts of this vision. In the first, he mentions only on personage. See Dean C. Jessee, ed., The Papers of Joseph Smith, vol. 1, Autobiographical and Historical Writings (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1989), for those versions as well as some contemporary secondhand accounts.

(3). Richard L. Bushman’s account of early Mormonism is the best to date. See his Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1984), 55,57

(4). Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., ed. James Mulholland, Robert B. Thompson, William W. Phelps, Willard Richards, George A. Smith, and later B.H. Roberts (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1902-12; 2nd rev. ed., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1951), 1:6. Bushman observes that the confusion of the prophet’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, over the details of Joseph’s first vision seems to confirm that he shared few particulars of his experience even with close family. As Bushman notes, “even twelve years after the event the First Vision’s personal significance for him still overshadowed its place in the divine plan.” (Bushman, Joseph Smith, 56).

(5). Disapproval by “one of the Methodist preachers” – probably George Lane – is the only specific instance he provides of the “severe persecution at the hands of all classes of men, both religious and irreligious” referred to in his personal history (JS-H 1:21-27).

(6). Two years before the publication of Joseph’s official version in 1842, his friend Orson Pratt had published an account related to him by the prophet. See An Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions and of the Late Discovery of Ancient American Records (Edinburgh: Ballyntyne and Hughes, 1840). For a study of the different accounts of the First Vision, see Milton V. Backman Jr., Joseph Smith’s First Vision (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1980).

(7) See James B. Allen, “The Significance of Joseph Smith’s ‘First Vision’ in Mormon Thought,” Dialogue 1 (autumn 1966): 29-45; Marvin Hill, “On the First Vision and Its Importance in the Shaping of Early Mormonism,” Dialogue 12 (spring 1979): 90-99; James B. Allen, “The Emergence of a Fundamental: The Expanding Role of Joseph Smith’s First Vision in Mormon Thought,” Journal of Mormon History 7 (1980): 43-61.

(8 ). Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 20:5. In 1833, a compilation of revelations received by Joseph Smith was published as the Book of Commandments. In 1835, the volume was expanded and republished as the Doctrine and Covenants. This volume, along with the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price, is one of the “standard works” considered scripture by Latter-day Saints.

----------------

Links to the Dialogue articles mentioned in the endnotes:

The Significance of Joseph Smith's 'First Vision' in Mormon Thought -- James B. Allen (Begins on page 29)

A Note On Joseph Smith's First Vision and its Import In the Shaping of Early Mormonism -- Marvin S. Hill (Begins on page 90)

Also, this BYU Studies article by RL Anderson might be of interest: FV through Reminiscences, and of course this groovy little speech by (by Anderson also): Paul and Joseph Smith.

And then, Bushman (if you don't own "Rough Stone Rolling," go out and buy it TODAY -- it rocks!) weighs in a bit in this Dialogue article that starts on page 82: FV Story Revised.

Or, if you don't like reading much (there are some people out there), Mike Ash has this short brochure here, but it might leave you unsatisfied. It will at least give you something though. And then Matthew Brown has this little paper here that was actually from the 2006 FAIR Conference. I doubt it will answer all of your questions, and it might even cause a few more questions; however, it just might answer a few in the process.

Or, if you're after what is basically a completely "faith-promoting" look, then I'd suggest Milton V. Backman Jr., “Joseph Smith’s Recitals of the First Vision,” Ensign, Jan. 1985, 8 which can be accessed online here. There's also another little dilly by Backman that is a bit more in depth that can be found here.

This should at least give you some info to formulate your own opinion on the events. I guess ultimately though (at least this is what people tell me), history isn't ever going to convert anyone... it's gotta be the spirit (maybe one day he'll pay me a visit).

Why would he translate Plates that were faked ( Kinderhook or whatever those plates were called ) ?

Here’s probably the best article to date on this (although it is quite dated): Stanley B. Kimball, “Kinderhook Plates Brought to Joseph Smith Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax,” Ensign, Aug. 1981, 66, it can be found online here.

Recently however, I understand Don Bradley and a friend of his have some new evidence regarding this event (for those who don't know, Don isn't LDS). From the brief information I have heard thus far, it appears that Joseph did indeed try to translate the KPs, but it was a secular translation that he attempted.

Again, this information is preliminary, so take it for what it's worth... Supposedly, Joseph sent for lexicons and dictionaries for these particular plates (in lieu of the seer stone, or Urim and Thummin, or through meditation and prayer). If he did indeed (which is still debatable) attempt to translate them, it was through secular means and not through his role as prophet.

But, one thing to keep in mind is if Joseph translated the KPs, where's the translation? To me, that's pretty compelling (for what it's worth).

Joseph Smith having a fondness for Wine even said to of drank wine the day he died

The word of wisdom was considered counsel long before it was considered command. The key to why the revelations was given, and why it changed in status as time progressed can be found in its opening verses.

JS Running for president

There is a strong Biblical president for some prophets being both government leaders as well as spiritual leaders. Even if this wasn’t so, I don’t know why a Prophet wouldn’t be allowed to run for a government office just because of his spiritual calling.

becoming a Free Mason

Not sure why this one is a point of contention.

Salamander letter ?

You are aware that this was a forgery, right?

[prisonchaplain]

I could compile a list of controversies my church has sustained.

1. Early racism

2. An early leader espoused heresy.

3. Counterfeit tongues/counterfeit healings

4. Ecstatic expressions that seem ungodly

5. A seemingly disproportionate # of leaders who have fallen into immorality

And my answers would be:

1. It happened and it was wrong, and we have since repented--including in public ceremonies.

2. The issue was Modalism (Oneness), and one of our leaders did agree to be baptized in Jesus' name only. He later recanted. In other words--he was wrong, but came to a correct understanding.

3. Counterfeits happen, but fakes only work because there is a real thing to immitate.

4. Sometimes people pretend to be influenced by the Spirit when they are really showboating. Often leaders recognize it and call people on it.

5. The two famous ones from the 80s surrendered their roles as leaders in the church. The Church would not protect them, even though losing their ministries meant a loss of millions per year. Integrity was more important.

My point? Most churches have aspects of their history that were not "of God." Usually they admit these errors and learn from the mistakes. We accept this because we are a broken humanity seeking God's direction to carry out his work. He is perfect and we are not.

Examining church history becomes more difficult if the leaders were prophets, but why? Abraham lied about his wife. Jacob was initially a deceiver. Even John the Baptist had his crisis of faith.

[Gaia]

My issues with the Church are signifigant. Please do not take offense I do not mean to offend anyone here - If i do in following statements/?'s I appologize in advance.

GAIA:

Hi Chicago Guy --

No need to apologize, as far as i'm concerned. I beleive that questions are at least as important as the answers - in fact, perhaps more; for they make us search and think and inquire. I think people often rush to provide answers before they've allowed the questions to really "percolate" and do all they can do for us. I think some people are uncomfortable with questions, because they are uncomfortable with their own unanswered questions....

AT any rate, i think you're to be congratulated for refusing to set aside, ignore or suppress your questions.

I expect you'll get lots of answers; i will try to offer my own in the hope that they are helpful to you; but if not, just pass 'em by, ok?

A. JOSEPH SMITH:

I expect a lot of folks here will address several of your quesitons directly; i would rather address the subject in general.

IMO, Joseph Smith was a fascinating, flawed, very human being. Even during his own lifetime, many of his own followers admitted that he behaved and spoke less like a Prophet than a backwoodsman. He had a definite appreciation for the ladies and collected as many as possible. Many of his own people thought his brother Hyrum made a better "prophet" than he did (meaning, was more serious).

But it is as wrong to *demonize* a man as it is to "deify" him; and i think many make the mistake of doing exactly that -- focusing on the elements of his personality that are of most interest to "prove" their like or dislike of him.

Joseph was a remarkable Mystic - and anyone who wants to be fair must view him in that light.

By the reports of those who actually knew him, he frequently launched into extended visions -- some of which were SHARED by those around him. Now i s'pose someone could call that "mass hysteria" if they absolutely cannot bring themselves to imagine that a very flawed and fallible human being could possibly also have a spiritual-mystical side -- but then that's their issue, isn't it.

Smith could be capricious, self-absorbed, egotistical, and abnoxious. He was not a great judge of character and frequently developed too-fast, too-close friendships that favored new acquaintances over older, "tried-and-true" friends.

He could also be amazingly compassionate, warm, friendly, open, charismatic, convincing, and deeply, profoundly spiritual and mystical.

Maybe as a psychologist i'm able to understand and appreciate paradox and contradiction in people (and issues) a bit -- because i see it all the time, including in myself, and i think it's incredibly unfair to judge a man and his entire life by a few very limited issues. Do you know of any man who is either all good or all bad??? Very few really are.

I believe it's a sign of maturity and wisdom to *resist* either deifying or demonizing a person. To the degree that we can do so, i think it demonstrates that we've come to some peace about our OWN very complicated Shadows and Brightness, paradoxes and contradictions.

Now, a word about some specifics:

Masonry: Joseph Smith studied a number of different spiritual / metaphysical systems; in fact it's been suggested that a number of later doctrines (like Eternal Progression, Eternal Marriage, Heavenly Mother, and the plurality of Gods) came as a result of his thinking and studying in those systems. See for example:

- www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm

- www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm

I have a friend who is a Mormon-Mason; if you're interested, i could put you in touch with him to answer any questions you might have related to FreeMasonry, just email me [email protected].

JOseph Smith as President:

Many people have heard bits and pieces about this, and concluded that it must have been a manifestation of overweening egotism or a power-play; in fact it was not, it was consistent with all the other teachings of Joseph Smith and the vision of the Kingdom of God wich he had received in revelation.

JS was told in revelation that he was to be both a spiritual and a political leader, and there is precedence in scripture supporting the idea. IN fact, in many cultures around the world, the Spiritual leaders were also political leaders. For more information on this and its relationship to the principles of the (political) Kingdom of God and the (economic) United Order or Law of Consecration and STewardship, see:

- "Principles of Perfection" and "Doctrines of the Kingdom" by Hyrum L Andrus

THE TEMPLE:

What even many LDS don't realize is that the Temple is symbolic, mythic and metaphorical. Mormonism as a whole is generally symbol and myth -poor, so to go into an environment that is as symbol-rich as the Temple can be a real shock and confusion to people.

To use the example you mentioned: What's important is not the specific name you're given, but the fact that you ARE given a NAME --

In nearly every ritual in nearly every metaphysical system created by humans, at a certain point in the ceremony, there is a kind of rebirth and a new name given. Think about what that means, what it signifies. What is a name? Why do we have/ use names? Why would one need a NEW name?

There's much more.

For example, the idea of going through symbolic purification has been part of the rituals and ceremonies of human spirituality from time immemorial, throughout many different eras, and cultures, all over the world.

This purification can take the form of a full body bath, to a sprinkling over the head, and everything in between.

Here are some good resources which help explain the Temple, its meaning and significance:

- Allen H. Barber. Celestial Symbols: Symbolism in Doctrine, Religious Traditions and Temple Architecture, Bountiful: Horizon, 1990, ISBN 0-88290-344-6

- Paul Thomas Smith & Matthew B. Brown. Symbols in Stone: Symbolism on the Early Temples of the Restoration, American Fork: Covenant, 1997, ISBN 1-57734-134-1

- Todd Comptom, "The Handclasp and Embrace as Tokens of Recognition," in By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., 2 vols. (Salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book Co., Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1990), 1: 620 - 631.).

- Cleon Skousen has an artilce on the meaning of the Temple Endowment.

RE PGP:

My friend the Mason has studied the PGP in depth, and can help with some of your questions relative to it.

I hope this is helpful; let me know, OK? And don't stop questioning!

Blessings to you --

[email protected]

[Annabelli]

ChicagoGuy: You seem to have crossed paths with some anti-mormon material. Reading the LDS Church History and making yourself knowledgeable of the Church doctrine is always the keys to understanding, developing a testimony and strengthening your faith. There are many scriptures which talk about false teachings (anti-mormon...etc.).

Which is more important to you? The Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints or the words against it?

[a-train]

ChicagoGuy,

What can you tell us about your experiences with the Holy Ghost? Have you had revelations about your life, children, marriage, job, family, the scriptures, etc.? Can you think of specific examples?

I personally rely on this more than anything. Well, when I am repenting and in the LORD's service anyway, I'm no translated being.

-a-train

[Traveler]

Interesting problem you have ChicagoGuy. Here is your problem as I see it. Suppose that we were to take a number of highlight films of two professional football teams. One is the Super Bowl champion the other the very last place team. And we edit those films so that all you saw were the highlight we wanted you to see.

I could, through those highlights’ make the champion appear to be the worse team ever –never able to do anything right and I could make the last place team appear to never do any thing wrong. Talking to a Pharisee, 2000 years ago and the “Son of Man” would convincingly become a blasphemous fraud worthy of crucifixion.

Let me put this another way – you say you want to believe – Really? If you want to learn Algebra and believe in Algebra – Why would you even consider taking Algebra from someone that had flunked ever math course they ever took? Why seek to learn Algebra from a horrible failure that cannot even add simple integers? If you want to learn Algebra – why not learn from a master of Algebra that is expert at doing Algebra. Dah! You learn of LDS from a nut job that cannot even live LDS principles?

I will say this in defense of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

1. For all the criticism by so called experts concerning Joseph’s rendition of the Book of Abraham I have never read of an expert that says that the form, content and presentation of the Book of Abraham is completely out of context so far as the ancient Egyptian mathematicians of Abraham’s day (2200 BC). Please present to me a form and content of any modern book that better represents the Pythagorean concepts passed down from the time of Abraham than is in Abraham chapter 3. It is interesting because this ancient cult was not even known until the end of the 20th century.

2. That the same Joseph Smith also gave us section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants that covers much of the same concepts in the Newtonian philosophy prevalent in his day.

3. Now consider verses 1-3 of Chapter 2 of The First Book of Nephi in the Book of Mormon that is written in an ancient Egyptian literary form now known to have existed around 600 BC. And then we told right there that the person writing the First Book of Nephi was using what he had learned from Egypt.

You can stand in the light of noon day if you like and pronounce that you believe it to be the dark of night. But if you do you will only convince anyone that would look for themselves that you must not have an elevator that comes close to reaching the top. If you look hard enough you can find published nut jobs that claim that the earth is hollow with a sun in the middle and that dinosaurs are still alive in the center earth – and they will claim that the world’s best scientist and experts agree with them.

The Traveler

[jaguarangel]

Hi CG,

I'm so sorry for your struggles, and what struggles they are! You seem to be very steadfast, and the Lord will indeed bless you for being found trying at the last day. I don't know the answers to why you have these issues, other than these are your trials versus some that others may have but you don't have at all. Maybe the Lord is waiting, as he often does, in giving His answers. He allows us to grow--sometimes REALLY grow--before he blesses us in our trials. Keep going, keep praying. You're doing everything right.

I too have questioned things, but feel better when I rely on the Spirit to tell me the truth versus "facts" that I may have read/heard along the way.

A. Joseph Smith/Prophets -- Why Did his story of the first vision so dramatically change over his time ? Why would he translate Plates that were faked ( Kinderhook or whatever those plates were called ) ? Many reports of his being a con Artist in youth as a Treasure seeker ? Joseph Smith having a fondness for Wine even said to of drank wine the day he died , JS Running for president , becoming a Free Mason , Salamander letter ? and a few more. -- One thing I could over look , 2 things likley but all these things unless they really do have simple explanations - just don't add up to Credibility.

Some things are just because of the time that he lived in. For all of us, it's milk before honey, line upon line. It was common to drink and smoke then. The Lord doesn't expect us to change everything all at once. JS was in charge of starting up the Lord's Church again and had many responsibilities. Heavenly Father probably purposefully didn't dump everything on him at once, ie. WOW. As far as drinking on the day he died, I doubt it, but who knows. That's between he and HF. I've read, though I can't remember the source, how the bad rumours got started on him being a treasure seaker due to his digging for a man for hire. Satan loves to take the Truth and twist it and also cause us to wonder. I don't know about the Mason thing or the others and have questioned some of them too, but the Spirit always witnesses to me in different areas of my life and that's all I need to be concerned about--that I feel the Spirit--that I seek the Spirit. Then I know that I'm doing right.

The whole everyone gets the same Temple name for a certain day ? When I heard that it really effected me as it made when i got my endowment feel like a went through a factory and got my stamp rather then something special happened - It still was a great experience but it was cheapened by that at least with me.

I don't understand this either and can relate to your feelings. We'll find out so many things in the hereafter.

C. POGP - Okay this is something I just cannot get my head around. The facsimiles have been translated by several egyptologists and never has the translation ever been anything near what JS translated them as. I mean nothing was even close. I mean I can even look at and tell something was up with the JS translation there. It was translated many time and every time was found to be just some Egyptian fella's Burial rite.

I don't know, but I do know that JS translated these by the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and the Lord probably wouldn't allow anyone else to translate them. To the other translators, they didn't see the whole picture or even the correct one. Just like the Bible, the Lord hid some of the plain and precious truths due to the iniquity of the people.

I'll pray for you CG. Our Heavenly Father is so very keenly aware of our struggles and needs, and He WILL help us in His time. I've been able to look back at something I struggled with for years and saw why he made me wait. "All things come together for the good of those who love the Lord" (paraphrased)

[Elphaba]

Hi CG,

I'm so sorry for your struggles, and what struggles they are! You seem to be very steadfast, and the Lord will indeed bless you for being found trying at the last day. I don't know the answers to why you have these issues, other than these are your trials versus some that others may have but you don't have at all. Maybe the Lord is waiting, as he often does, in giving His answers. He allows us to grow--sometimes REALLY grow--before he blesses us in our trials. Keep going, keep praying. You're doing everything right.

<snip>

I'll pray for you CG. Our Heavenly Father is so very keenly aware of our struggles and needs, and He WILL help us in His time. I've been able to look back at something I struggled with for years and saw why he made me wait. "All things come together for the good of those who love the Lord" (paraphrased)

Hi jaguar,

I noticed your kind response to CG's struggles, and that you shared a few of them yourself.

Doctor Steuss lists a number of fantastic references, but only clumsily listed my favorite for someone like you who is starting with the basics. (tsk tsk my son from another mother). (Actually, he knows better than I, but don't let him know.)

Rough Stone Rolling: Joseph Smith, by Richard Bushman, would be an excellent book for someone like you if you'd like the questions in your post answered.

For example, the issue of wine. Joseph did drink wine occasionally, but not often. He did have some wine on the night of his murder, but you have to keep in mind, the WOW was not yet a commandment.

If you read Bushman's book, it puts many of these issues into perspective. Even as a non-member I learned quite a bit and many of my perspectives changed dramatically.

Take care,

Elphaba

[shanstress70]

ChicagoGuy: You seem to have crossed paths with some anti-mormon material. Reading the LDS Church History and making yourself knowledgeable of the Church doctrine is always the keys to understanding, developing a testimony and strengthening your faith. There are many scriptures which talk about false teachings (anti-mormon...etc.).

Which is more important to you? The Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints or the words against it?

When someone reads about some contradictions in the LDS church and ends up formulating questions after reading them, that doesn't necessarily mean that person had been reading 'anti' material. One could read actual church history and formulate questions such as Chicagoguys. It is possible that he's been reading anti material, but not a given.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

For example, the issue of wine. Joseph did drink wine occasionally, but not often. He did have some wine on the night of his murder, but you have to keep in mind, the WOW was not yet a commandment.

[...]

A great article on the movement of the WoW from counsel to command can be found in the Autumn 1981 issue of Dialogue (Volume 14, Number 3). The whole issue is wonderful, but the best article in the bunch in my not-so-humble-opinion starts on page 66 and is titled "Did the Word of Wisdom Become a Commandment in 1851?"

[tiancum]

Chicagoguy,

may i suggest that you look closer at the facsimiles in the book of Abraham. Especially the circle. turn it upside down, look very closely, use discernment.

God answers prayers. I know he does. He answers yours.

[ChicagoGuy]

great responses so far thanks all !

[Doctor Steuss]

great responses so far thanks all !

I had totally forgotten about an article that might help with this one:

B. Temple -- I love the temple and think they are great -- Just some of the ceremonies are Identical to ceremonies of Free Masonry - no coincidence that those ceremonies weren't added until JS became a Free Mason ?

Greg Kearney (an LDS member who is also a Mason) gave a fantastic presentation at a FAIR conference that took a look at the ceremony and Masonry. These are only his opinions, and I know there are a few people that don't agree with them, but I think there's some credence to them.

The Message and the Messenger: Latter-day Saints and Freemasonry

I have heard some proposition that the ceremony of Freemasonry was actually carried by the Masons from Solomon's Temple throughout time and Joseph took it and restored it to its original form. IMO, the historical record can't support such a view but it does seem to bring some people comfort. In the end, I think the Masonic elements are a teaching tool (much like Kearney, although his thoughts are much more refined). If you have any questions that you would like to ask Greg after reading his article, let me know.

[prisonchaplain]

Some general thoughts on "crises of faith."

1. It's recently been reported that Mother Theresa struggled her whole life with not sensing God's presence, and wondering how much was real. Some have even said she did not have true Christian faith. Others argue that her doubts and struggles are normal.

2. When doubting particular aspects of faith, it might be useful to reaffirm what we do have faith in. For example, I may wonder how a good God can allow for a hell to exist, and even be eternal.

a. What do I believe about God? Is he really good? Am I sure of this? If so, what does my Church and my Scripture specifically and surely say about hell?

b. Can I, perhaps leave the uncertainties to God for now--simply trusting in his goodness and justice?

3. If my faith is in God, how strongly do I have to defend my church? Could there have been errors, and the church still be true? How wrong can we be and still be right with God?

4. How much room is there for uncertainty about particular doctrines, practices, or events in church history?

5. Can people be wrong, and the gospel still be true?

6. What truths am I sure about? Can I build on those, and maintain a faith that endures?

7. What practices strengthen me? Maybe I need to focus on those for awhile? For example, if personal prayer helps, maybe I need to set aside a few hours, and just pray. Maybe I need to fast? Maybe I need to just read Scripture, instead of writings that attack/defend the church?

Finally, the "dark night of the soul," is an ancient struggle--where people of faith go through a time of spiritual drought and doubt. The faithful God is there--but seems hidden. For those who go through these times, there is usually a blessing at the end--a renewed and enhanced sense of God in their lives.

In the end, human voices can only suggest answers--it's the Spirit of God who directs us. Whatever and wherever--it is that voice we must follow.

[snipe123]

Hi CG,

I could have written your post myself several years ago...I think I have had every single question that you mentioned, and then some...sure you have others as well...I wanted to answer some of your questions by way of general principle and give you some tips, as I think it will be far more useful for you to find the answers to your questions yourself, rather than getting a point by pont answer from someone else...

Still after all these years it feels like i am living a lie or at least in a sense. Even though I seriously have doubts inregards to the Temple/DC/POG and JS in general -- I do appreciate and like the set up of the Church and I have always believed Mormons to be the most trustworthly , naturally kind and generous people I have ever known. I agree with many if not most ( even all ) of the teachings of the Church - Even Follow the WOW , LOC , prayer , etc.

The first thing I would like to tell you though, is that you are not living a lie by continuing to go to church, participate etc...you are having some struggles with your faith and that does not make you a liar...Some questions I have had, or continue to have, I tend to keep to myself, knowing that if I mention my concerns to the wrong person it might cause them to travel down the same road of doubt from which they may not return...that does not make me a liar, it makes me responsible...I would however talk to a church leader and get some council, not about your specific questions necessarily, but just to unload and maybe get a blessing...if your bishop is out of the question, set an appointment with your stake prez...I know of no better way to receive the Spirit of God than from a good blessing.

You mentioned the fruits of the church, when you speak about its people in such glowing terms in the above paragraph. Good fruit does not fall far from the tree on which it is produced...:)

Fact is I am one of those people that actually REALLY WANT'S to believe in the church -- If I did it wouodmake my life so much easier with my family -- who for 7 years I have had to keep my true feelings toward the Church secret from. rust me I am not posting here to conflict other just looking for answers if anyone has them. I can't ask these questions of my Bishop ( His wife and Mine are best friends - and to be honest I just don't feel comfortable telling anyone in the church I talk to on a regular basis how I feel in fear being ostrisized or my wife finding out ).

Finally before I go further -- I have read and re read the scriptures and prayed alot. My answers or i guess at least the ones I am looking for just aren't there. The only answer I seem to get is literally a feeling of : If it makes you happy and makes you a better person for it - what does correct or incorrect matter : I guess that answer should be somewhat comforting but to be honest I am so much of a perfectionist about things like this that the details bother me -- and over time it builds and builds. it's like an itch where I know if i leave it be and forget it everyhting will be fine. If I scratch it it will just grow and make things worse. Yet I always end up scratching :wall:

This phrase you use is very instructive: "The only answer I seem to get is literally a feeling of : If it makes you happy and makes you a better person for it - what does correct or incorrect matter "

I would question the source of this answer based on what it is telling you...In essence your answer is that despite the fact that salvation and belief are matters of eternal consequence, it really does not matter all that much since it's making you happy here and now. This sounds more like the ambiguity of The Devil trying to convince you that your doubts are valid, but they don't have any significance...it sounds very sinister to me...It does not sound like the kind of answer you would get from God...God would say "Get out. it's poison!" or if he does not come right out and answer your question he would certainly say "Hang in there because your answers are coming..."(I will speak to that point later) Satan would say "Why bother investigating all this stuff, so it's all false, but your happy so why bother?" This thought will innitially keep you in the church (as it has) but over time that doubt will cause your faith to decay to a point where this idea is no longer satisfactory...to live with that kind of ambiguity is not who we like to be, and you will get bitter and eventually leave because now your faith has been extinguished...not getting on your case here brother, it just sounds like a BIG RED FLAG to me and a very clever deception the devil has designed to foster apathy and resignation...

My issues with the Church are signifigant. Please do not take offense I do not mean to offend anyone here - If i do in following statements/?'s I appologize in advance.

Yep...you have some big ones here, but let me asure you there are answers to these questions that will satisfy you if you approach them in the right way. You may not find the answers here, or from another person, but they are there...

A. Joseph Smith/Prophets -- Why Did his story of the first vision so dramatically change over his time ? Why would he translate Plates that were faked ( Kinderhook or whatever those plates were called ) ? Many reports of his being a con Artist in youth as a Treasure seeker ? Joseph Smith having a fondness for Wine even said to of drank wine the day he died , JS Running for president , becoming a Free Mason , Salamander letter ? and a few more. -- One thing I could over look , 2 things likley but all these things unless they really do have simple explanations - just don't add up to Credibility.

First vision issue was spoken of by others...

Had Joseph claimed to translate the Kinderhook plates by the gift and power of God, that would have been cause for concern...he attempted to translate in a secular way...Joseph over time developed a fascination for ancient languages in general, but in terms of a secular translator of ancient writings, he was an amatuer.Salamander letters have been proved as forgeries long ago...does not stop anti-mormons from continuing to use it however...

Joseph grew up poor and did a wide variety of things to earn money...helping someone dig for silver is not the same thing as a "treasure seeker". This is the light that anti-mormons like to paint it in, but that does not make it so...As another example of this tactic...Critics of the early Christian church charged that Christians believed in the practice of incest. Pretty outrageous claim one might say...Critics would argue that "don't they call eachother brother and sister? And don't these Brothers and Sisters intermarry? Therefore they practice incest." Seems silly, but it is an argument that was used...the tactic here is to attack not what Christians actually believed, but the critics impression or interpretation of what they bleieved...that's a very different thing. People attack their interpretation of Josephs employment, rather than just say, he worked as a laborer...they also concoct fanciful stories to make it sound like more than it was...

B. Temple -- I love the temple and think they are great -- Just some of the ceremonies are Identical to ceremonies of Free Masonry - no coincidence that those ceremonies weren't added until JS became a Free Mason ? One of the biggest questions I have -- if this can't be disscussed here becasue you don't discuss temple things outside of it I uinderstand but it is a major barrier I have. The whole everyone gets the same Temple name for a certain day ? When I heard that it really effected me as it made when i got my endowment feel like a went through a factory and got my stamp rather then something special happened - It still was a great experience but it was cheapened by that at least with me.

Joseph was a Mason and so were many of the people that he innitially introduced the endowment to...If it was just a simple borrowing of the Mason rites, then everyone would have cried foul at a pathetic attempt at deception and plagerism...As I understand it, Masonry was an appostate priesthood, and their rites were essentially part of a forgotten endowment...the true meaning to them was lost...Is this the Restoration, or isn't it? I assume that the endowment in some variation has always existed in some form among various groups of people, just like creation "myths" and stories about our "first parents" "the flood", "tower of Babel" etc...can be found all over the world among people and cultures who are not Christian or Jewish...Do all the variations that exist invalidate the Bible accounts, or do they simply indicate that at one time these were true teachings that through passage of time, migration, geography and the handlings of men corrupted?Is it so unreasonable that Joseph was simply restoring the true meaning of rites that exist among Masons and other people as well?

C. POGP - Okay this is something I just cannot get my head around. The facsimiles have been translated by several egyptologists and never has the translation ever been anything near what JS translated them as. I mean nothing was even close. I mean I can even look at and tell something was up with the JS translation there. It was translated many time and every time was found to be just some Egyptian fella's Burial rite.

As I understand it...The fascimiles (pictographs) have nothing to do with the actual text of The Book of Abraham...In other words, the pictographs, do not give us the story in The Pearl of Great Price(one is a depiction of Abraham yes, but it does not tell the whole story)...The Facimiles have some brief explanations of various parts...these fascimilies could also be regarded under the same priciples as the above mentioned endowment...Joseph recognized in them things pertaining to truth, and there are probably some things there that do not, and some things that will be revealed later...The Book of The Dead has some striking resemblences to the endowment ceremony...this is not proof that it is false, this is a stamp of authenticity, which says that these rites in various forms are ancient in nature and pieces and parts exist in many cultures and writings...Joseph just implemented it in it's true form...in retospect we can then see bits and parts of it everywhere...This does not make it false!

LOL, well I started out by saying I would not answer specific points, but stick to general principles, so let me get to the principles that have helped me...

1)Seek words of wisdom by study and by faith...you know that scripture of course but how can it be aplied practically. In short, you can not have faith and at the same time have doubt...That's all fine and dandy but that's really tough to do when you find yourself in the predicament that you are in...I remember once on my mission running across a teaching by one of our church leaders that I just knew was a bunch of crap!...Couple days went by and it festered and I talked about it a lot with other missionaries who tried to help me, and I was saying that I don't care if a prophet said it, it's crap! Essentially what I was really saying is: "If I don't understand it, it must be false!" A kind sister missionary(gotta love the sisters) said : "Elder, where is your faith? How will you ever get an answer if you have already decided it's false?" I knew she was right in that moment and it was then that I began to develop what I fondly refer to as "The jar it and shelf it priciple." Here it is in a nutshell:

I have a question in regards to the church that I cannot find an immediate answer to and I am troubled by it. I take that question before The Lord and say something like this: "Lord, I have question "X" and I do not understand it...I believe that you can show me the answer but I recognize that in asking the question you may not wish to answer it now or ever, for whatever reason. I trust you to know what is best. I am willing to exercise my faith and search dilligently for the answer as I study and pray and I ask that you guide me in my studies...I ask that in the meantime, you speak peace to my soul concerning the matter when you feel that I have exerted enough effort. If the answer is to be made known, great! If it isn't, please give me peace so it does not cause doubt any longer."

So I then take this doubt and stick it in jar and put it on a shelf (not literally). The question is there, I am not ignoring it...I see it there from time to time and take it down to examine it (in my mind). It has not been dismissed and I am not in denial...I am simply partitioning it in a way...Putting it up there, acknowledging the question and exercising faith that some day, that question will be answered and my doubt will be discarded.

By the way, that question I had beat myself up over on my mission was answered the very next day, rather forcefully as I read the scriptures with a prayer of faith...that taught me a very valuable lesson...not saying you will get your answers the very next day, I think missionaries get some special privilages when it comes to learning(haha) but I do believe you can have peace for these things if you apply this principle..."ye receive no witness until AFTER the trial of your faith..." When you are aided in your studies and receive that witness by The Spirit, it will do more for you than any answer provided by any man...Arguments and evidence based on intellect can convince you, until someone comes along with a better argument. Study aided by the Spirit is totally different.

2) You have probably read enough anti-literature that it is probably time to lay it aside and repair the damage...while it is true that many of your concerns are not related to anti, (The temple for example)I am certain that many of them are related to something you have read. Hopefully you recognize the spirit and atmosphere that is created as you have read this literature...makes you feel kind of heavy and dark...if you doubt this, try listening to uplifting music, or read the scriptures for awhile until you feel The Spirit, and then pick up some anti-literature and see how quickly that darkness sets in...If this is not The Lords church, then God would inspire men to expose it with pure truth...While the claim of accuracy, truth and love is made by many anti-mormons, I have yet to read a single anti-book that does not employ deceptive tactics in some way...If you can get ahold of Hugh Nibleys talk "How to Write an Anti-Mormon Book" you will see that the tactics of the earliest anti-writers have continued to the present and all of them present some truth mixed with lots of Yellow-journalism, half truths, misquoted sentences and outright fabrications or recycling of previous fabrications...not to say they never have a valid criticism, but again, how can the Lord inspire such tactics to expose "THE LIES OF MORMONISM". God uses truth, never lies to combat The Devil...You might also read what Mormon scholars have said in response to some of your questions...Kinderhook and Salamander letter is a good example(total forgery by the way...)

3)Focus on living the Gospel...Since I became active (after a three year vacation in the great and spacius building...:)) again in April, I have been following the advice I heard recently from a dear friend that I served a mission with 15 years ago. He never goes to church expecting to be fed, or to feel the spirit...He goes to worship, renew his covenants and FEED OTHERS...He prays that when he enters the church, or anywhere for that matter, that he will have an uplifting word for someone, or an opportunity to minister or benefit someone in some way...As a result he always feels the Spirit in abundance, and he is always fed, and he always has a chance to serve in some way...He says(and I believe him) that he has not had a bad Sunday in 15 years...I have not had a bad Sunday since April, and plan to keep this idea with me for the rest of my life. My friend is the most Spirit filled man I know, and I always feel blessed to have spoken to him. He is a brick layer in Navoo, and has never been to college and yet he is the most learned man in the scriptures I have ever met personally...but he is not only learned...he lives it...and it is by study and faith that he has become the blessing that he is...it is in "the living", that we gain our testimonies...

4)Reflect upon the possitive things you have experienced and felt as you have served in the Church. You have probably had the opportunity to give blessings using your priesthood where the thoughts given were not your own...you have had miracles in your life...These things were not deceptions of the Devil then, and they certainly cannot be now...The Church can't be half true...The Bof M can't have some truth and some stuff that's made up...It's either a revealed religion or it isn't.

As a final thought...On the night of Joseph Smiths death, things were rather gloomy, so one of his companions (I forget which) sang "A Poor Wayfairing Man of Grief"...When he finished, Joseph asked him to sing it again, to which the brother replied: "Oh Joseph, I really don't feel like singing right now". To which Joseph replied: "Commence, you'll get the spirit of it!"

If I may echo those words to you...Dig deep and access your hearts desire which is to believe in this church and then commence in faith. God is with you and will answer you in his own time and in his own way.Know that there are others who have traveled this difficult road before you, and at the journeys end, know that the fruit is sweet...

I hope this helped in some small way...

[snipe123]

Some general thoughts on "crises of faith."

1. It's recently been reported that Mother Theresa struggled her whole life with not sensing God's presence, and wondering how much was real. Some have even said she did not have true Christian faith. Others argue that her doubts and struggles are normal.

2. When doubting particular aspects of faith, it might be useful to reaffirm what we do have faith in. For example, I may wonder how a good God can allow for a hell to exist, and even be eternal.

a. What do I believe about God? Is he really good? Am I sure of this? If so, what does my Church and my Scripture specifically and surely say about hell?

b. Can I, perhaps leave the uncertainties to God for now--simply trusting in his goodness and justice?

3. If my faith is in God, how strongly do I have to defend my church? Could there have been errors, and the church still be true? How wrong can we be and still be right with God?

4. How much room is there for uncertainty about particular doctrines, practices, or events in church history?

5. Can people be wrong, and the gospel still be true?

6. What truths am I sure about? Can I build on those, and maintain a faith that endures?

7. What practices strengthen me? Maybe I need to focus on those for awhile? For example, if personal prayer helps, maybe I need to set aside a few hours, and just pray. Maybe I need to fast? Maybe I need to just read Scripture, instead of writings that attack/defend the church?

Finally, the "dark night of the soul," is an ancient struggle--where people of faith go through a time of spiritual drought and doubt. The faithful God is there--but seems hidden. For those who go through these times, there is usually a blessing at the end--a renewed and enhanced sense of God in their lives.

In the end, human voices can only suggest answers--it's the Spirit of God who directs us. Whatever and wherever--it is that voice we must follow.

I continue to marvel at your objectivity and thoughtfulness in these forums pc...some really great points here that I found immedietly useful and some that I will continue to ponder...Great advice for CG and anyone else in crisis...thank you!

[Serg]

You have alternatives. Before deciding which voice to follow, before deciding to which " fact"(religious or secular) give some worth in such a trouble, realize what you feel, what you want, what you think you are, what you think you want: think of what you " know" and what you " think" you " know" . If after all that, there is still -wanting- in you, a hazardous impulse of -seeking-, then watch what exactly are you seeking: why?

What is your fear? That God may not exist or that your church is not " true" , or both? Do both HAVE to go together? if they do(because you feel so), do you then fear abandonment, loneliness, insecurity, judgement from those close to you who religiously rely eithr on your guideance(children) or support(family)? Do you FEAR to disappoint? Disapoint who? You by not seekig " truth", your relatives for not believing the same things, God because you might be wrong in doubting His alleged true church or death and meaninglesness because " god after all may not exist" ?

A -crisis- of -faith- is no different at root from any other -crisis- of teh emotional order. Hence, and as many here would uphold, if rational inquiry, if " historical facts" can be bended on both sides(mormons, antimormons, secular, religious) and ' faith' or that ' attitude' to succumb blindly works anyways and APART from any " account" or " logic" , then find the center of your seeking, of your wanting: what is it tou want now? what is it you fear? what is it you feel? where? how?

Is it true that you need something exterior to you to feel your way through life? Is it? Is it a divine voice that comes from outside or a very curious phenomena that guides you from your inside, as to make you marvel and think it is you?

Do you need to be directed here? You surely know what you will get from this or any othet forum. Some will try to point you in one direction, others to another: but is it true that you need another man's map to find what YOU and only YOU could conceive in yourself of ever wanting to seek? From whence did that other man get his map? Is it that he holds more power or magic, or is more special to the universe that he can guide you while you must inevitably depend on him?

Know your self. Do not fear. Fear compromises you.

[Annabelli]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi CG,

I'm so sorry for your struggles, and what struggles they are! You seem to be very steadfast, and the Lord will indeed bless you for being found trying at the last day. I don't know the answers to why you have these issues, other than these are your trials versus some that others may have but you don't have at all. Maybe the Lord is waiting, as he often does, in giving His answers. He allows us to grow--sometimes REALLY grow--before he blesses us in our trials. Keep going, keep praying. You're doing everything right.

<snip>

I'll pray for you CG. Our Heavenly Father is so very keenly aware of our struggles and needs, and He WILL help us in His time. I've been able to look back at something I struggled with for years and saw why he made me wait. "All things come together for the good of those who love the Lord" (paraphrased)

Hi jaguar,

I noticed your kind response to CG's struggles, and that you shared a few of them yourself.

Doctor Steuss lists a number of fantastic references, but only clumsily listed my favorite for someone like you who is starting with the basics. (tsk tsk my son from another mother). (Actually, he knows better than I, but don't let him know.)

Rough Stone Rolling: Joseph Smith, by Richard Bushman, would be an excellent book for someone like you if you'd like the questions in your post answered.

For example, the issue of wine. Joseph did drink wine occasionally, but not often. He did have some wine on the night of his murder, but you have to keep in mind, the WOW was not yet a commandment.

If you read Bushman's book, it puts many of these issues into perspective. Even as a non-member I learned quite a bit and many of my perspectives changed dramatically.

Take care,

Elphaba

THEY SERVE WINE IN JAIL?

[Doctor Steuss]

THEY SERVE WINE IN JAIL?

Refer to History of the Church, Vol. VI, p. 616. (emphasis mine)

Originally posted by HoC Vol. VI@ p. 616

Colonel Markham went out, and he was also prevented from returning.

He was very angry at this, but the mob paid no attention to him, they

drove him out of town at the point of the bayonet, and threatened to shoot

him if he returned, He went, I am informed, to Nauvoo for the purpose of

raising a company of men for our protection. Brother Fullmer went to

Nauvoo after witnesses: it is my opinion that Brother Wheelock did also.

Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by

some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits

were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. I think

it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to

return. I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of

the prison guards. We all of us felt unusually dull and languid, with a

remarkable depression of spirits. In consonance with those feelings I sang

a song, that had lately been introduced into Nauvoo, entitled, A Poor

Wayfaring Man of Grief', etc.

I would post more, but I don't have the heart to read about the martyrdom today.

[Annabelli]

Refer to History of the Church, Vol. VI, p. 616. (emphasis mine)

I would post more, but I don't have the heart to read about the martyrdom today.

Thank you for your post. I respect your feelings about this. I will refer to the material that you suggested.

[Doctor Steuss]

<div class='quotemain'>

Refer to History of the Church, Vol. VI, p. 616. (emphasis mine)

I would post more, but I don't have the heart to read about the martyrdom today.

Thank you for your post. I respect your feelings about this. I will refer to the material that you suggested.

Thank you for understanding. I started to transcribe a bit more of it, but my heart began to sink when it meantioned him seeing the men outside with their faces painted black. Some days I just can't read it, and today is one of those days.

[Gwen]

"Finally before I go further -- I have read and re read the scriptures and prayed alot. My answers or i guess at least the ones I am looking for just aren't there. The only answer I seem to get is literally a feeling of : If it makes you happy and makes you a better person for it - what does correct or incorrect matter : I guess that answer should be somewhat comforting but to be honest I am so much of a perfectionist about things like this that the details bother me -- and over time it builds and builds. it's like an itch where I know if i leave it be and forget it everyhting will be fine. If I scratch it it will just grow and make things worse. Yet I always end up scratching"

someone said that this answer didn't sound like one that would come from the lord. i'm not sure i agree with that. we are constantly asked to cast off the natural man and become more like our heavenly father, to expand our faith and submit our will to his. i personaly believe the natural man isn't defined by one list, we all have different "natural" tendencies, yes there is the mold of the natural man but then we all have the specifics that make us us. we must cast some of those off as well. if one is that much of a perfectionist and wants that kind of difinative answers then would it not be logical that the lord would ask that person to extend a bit more "faith" on some matters for a time, to give them a trial of faith prior to the definitave witness? (ether 12:6) is it reasonable to say that the answer given is that of the answer will come; but for now you are happy and a better person so what does it matter?

let's suppose that some of our non lds posters are right, the chruch isn't the only true church, that there are many paths to heaven. if that is the case; his whole family is lds and happy in the church then would would the lord accomplish by saying "well, it's not my only one and true church on the earth". he would then go nuts trying to find the "one and only" but if there isn't one then it's a sorrowfull and empty journy. if he finds joy in the lds chruch, he is a better person then what does it matter, litterally. what would be accomplished by his looking elsewhere? what would that put his family through....if it doesn't matter then the pain to the family (which i think most agree would not be what the lord would want) would not be worth the journey.

personaly because of my faith in the lds church i'd say it's more the first (if either). lol i can say i have gotten some strange answers from the lord before and only the one receiving the answer can interpret what it means or from where it comes.

pc, your thoughts on crisis of faith; is that all from you or did you borrow that from somewhere? abosolutely beautiful. and is it ok to borrow it? :)

[jaguarangel]

Hi CG,

I could have written your post myself several years ago...I think I have had every single question that you mentioned, and then some...sure you have others as well...I wanted to answer some of your questions by way of general principle and give you some tips, as I think it will be far more useful for you to find the answers to your questions yourself, rather than getting a point by pont answer from someone else...

Isaac, I diddo your wonderful message to our Chicago Guy. Wonderfully stated. We can really only ever rely on the Spirit when we need the answers.

You're still in my prayers, CG.

[pushka]

I'm so glad that CG returned to the site this week. Last Sunday evening I had an overwhelming compulsion to investigate the LDS church again, to start attending on Sundays, obtain a BOM and request visits from Missionaries. I ordered the BOM and requested the Missionary visits online, then I went away on a short pre-planned holiday from Monday till Friday.

I have many of the same doubts about the LDS church that CG mentioned he had. I feel torn, however, because when I stopped attending the LDS church when I was 18 (and hadn't got baptised), I did it under pressure from my non-believing boyfriend of the time...also I had not kept all the Commandments, and was being hypocritical if I'd have got baptised at that time and not stopped what I was doing. I didn't actually lose faith totally in the church at that point, although I had begun to question one or two things...

For the next 20 years I had to deny that I believed in the church any longer, to keep my now husband happy, but I refused to totally diss the church as I still felt that it had been a great place for me when I attended, and that I couldn't find anything specifically wrong with it. In 2001 I considered returning to the church as I was getting in a bad way thru drinking too much alcohol, and I knew that the church was just about the only institution that I would listen to enough to stop the drinking...unfortunately a friend of mine persuaded me not to return for that reason, but to try to overcome my drinking habit by myself instead...it only got worse, but I've finally overcome it in the last 12 months or so. At the time I considered re-attending, I started to look up LDS websites...I eventually found this site, but prior to that I'd found pro and anti LDS websites, and did all the reading...I became skeptical and decided that I had done the right thing in not returning to the church.

So imagine how I felt last Sunday when, out of the blue, this sudden compulsion to return overcame me again. I was trying to watch TV but I couldn't concentrate because my mind was full of thoughts about obtaining church literature, attending the services again, and even meeting some of the people who attended with me all those years ago again..in the past I've always been afraid of meeting those people again, because of my shame of the circumstances in which I stopped attending...my heart was beating very strongly...I've recently been diagnosed with Atrial Fibrillation, so I know that is a medical explanation for the feeling occurring...but it didn't feel like it was happening for that reason...it felt that it was happening as it does when I get very anxious or excited about something...I've had this feeling occasionally before, at times when I've felt I could no longer put off doing something that was important to me that I did...I usually follow those feelings.

I do want to start attending again, but I'm afraid of feeling the same way as CG, that I would be a fraud unless I could gain a watertight testimony of all that I once believed in all those years ago...I wonder, how come I found it so easy to believe back then? Why did I not have any doubts then? How could I have spent 6 weeks debating Mormonism with my Priest at my RC school and have been so certain that the doctrines were correct? Will I ever be able to truly regain that testimony? On a lesser note, and this will sound very silly to you all, I'm afraid of the method of being baptised, I cannot swim and have a fear of water coming over my face...I've seen people being baptised into the LDS faith, and wonder if there would be something I could do to protect me from feeling like drowning when being baptised?

Thanks for all the resources listed in the various replies to CG's post...I will try my best to read thru them and will let you know if I hear back about having the Missionaries visit, or receive my copy of the BOM.