Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[yjacket]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Well said. Keep going. In addition to avoiding yelling "pervert" what other positive actions, I wonder, can we all consider?

Oh I don't know . . .how about teaching the true nature of man and woman vs. blissfully accepting that they just need to be accepted.  I agree these individuals, i.e. deviants need help-obviously they are not well.  But there is a big difference between trying to help them vs. saying yeah that behavior is just peachy queen.

That help will come as they accept the doctrine of Christ (instead of trying to meld it to their own interpretation) as taught by the scriptures and prophets.

[lostinwater]

15 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Oh I don't know . . .how about teaching the true nature of man and woman vs. blissfully accepting that they just need to be accepted.  I agree these individuals, i.e. deviants need help-obviously they are not well.  But there is a big difference between trying to help them vs. saying yeah that behavior is just peachy queen.

That help will come as they accept the doctrine of Christ (instead of trying to meld it to their own interpretation) as taught by the scriptures and prophets.

Not thinking "pervert".  That's the biggest one, and IMO possible even if you disagree with them.  Do that, and actions will take care of themselves.  

At least there is consensus that all will be made right in heaven.  Though I am confident as to what that means, I respect that others disagree and sincerely appreciate all the feedback.

[yjacket]

1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

Not thinking "pervert".  That's the biggest one, and IMO possible even if you disagree with them.  Do that, and actions will take care of themselves.  

At least there is consensus that all will be made right in heaven.  Though I am confident as to what that means, I respect that others disagree and sincerely appreciate all the feedback.

I don't think you know what the word "deviant" means. Someone who is a boy but either becomes a "girl" through modification or pretends to be a girl is engaging in deviant behavior or at least what should be considered deviant behavior.   "In sociology, deviance describes an action or behavior that violates social norms".

It is absolutely 100% an appropriate term for it; unless of course what you really mean is that you don't want the behavior to actually be deviant (i.e. violates social norms).  And that is what we really are talking about here. We are talking about the normalization of behavior that at one point (and in fact in all righteous communities) is considered deviant.

And that is the insidiousness of it and the evil of it; it's really not about feeling their pain and sadness, it's about accepting that kind of behavior as normal. You want a society that accepts transgender behavior as normal-when it's not normal, never has been normal and never will be normal.

And this is exactly what leads to a collapse of morality. Behavior that is considered deviant, becomes normal, up is down, down is up.

I never have been and never will be for violating the rights of those who are deviant-if they want to screw up their life-go ahead. But what I am against is the massive societal change in accepting said deviant behavior as normal.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I don't think you know what the word "deviant" means. Someone who is a boy but either becomes a "girl" through modification or pretends to be a girl is engaging in deviant behavior or at least what should be considered deviant behavior.   "In sociology, deviance describes an action or behavior that violates social norms".

It is absolutely 100% an appropriate term for it; unless of course what you really mean is that you don't want the behavior to actually be deviant (i.e. violates social norms).  And that is what we really are talking about here. We are talking about the normalization of behavior that at one point (and in fact in all righteous communities) is considered deviant.

And that is the insidiousness of it and the evil of it; it's really not about feeling their pain and sadness, it's about accepting that kind of behavior as normal. You want a society that accepts transgender behavior as normal-when it's not normal, never has been normal and never will be normal.

And this is exactly what leads to a collapse of morality. Behavior that is considered deviant, becomes normal, up is down, down is up.

I never have been and never will be for violating the rights of those who are deviant-if they want to screw up their life-go ahead. But what I am against is the massive societal change in accepting said deviant behavior as normal.

@lostinwater-The word "deviant" coming from @yjacket is a compliment. You should hear the words he calls me. Ouch! 

[Guest]

Well, since none of us are Jesus, or perfect as He has always been, and none of us given the responsibility (thank goodness) or authority of Jesus, we have to turn to the scriptures to learn how we, mortals with infantile knowledge and experience, are taught to behave (emphasis mine):

 

Quote

 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

 41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

 42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

 43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

 44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

 45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, 

 

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, yjacket said:

I don't think you know what the word "deviant" means. Someone who is a boy but either becomes a "girl" through modification or pretends to be a girl is engaging in deviant behavior or at least what should be considered deviant behavior.   "In sociology, deviance describes an action or behavior that violates social norms".

It is absolutely 100% an appropriate term for it; unless of course what you really mean is that you don't want the behavior to actually be deviant (i.e. violates social norms).  And that is what we really are talking about here. We are talking about the normalization of behavior that at one point (and in fact in all righteous communities) is considered deviant.

And that is the insidiousness of it and the evil of it; it's really not about feeling their pain and sadness, it's about accepting that kind of behavior as normal. You want a society that accepts transgender behavior as normal-when it's not normal, never has been normal and never will be normal.

And this is exactly what leads to a collapse of morality. Behavior that is considered deviant, becomes normal, up is down, down is up.

I never have been and never will be for violating the rights of those who are deviant-if they want to screw up their life-go ahead. But what I am against is the massive societal change in accepting said deviant behavior as normal.

Thank-you.  Please remember - my friend is not trying to change society - not gay, not a cross-dresser, no surgeries - nothing.  If this is about maintaining the status quo, then you have no need to be concerned about them.  

I guess if the idea I've suggested that in heaven our bodies will be the perfect reflection of our spirits is a threat to your beliefs (don't mean that in a patronizing way), then I guess I am a threat.  Though I believe that statement is believed by most members as well.  Yes, yes - what that means is debated - but that hope I think is common.

Regardless, I do agree with you that this isn't normal.  Nobody IS transgender.  That's just the word we use on earth to describe the feeling of conflict.  Everyone is either male or female in spirit.  And in heaven everyone's eternal body will align with that identity.  I am very glad their state of conflict is temporary.  

@MormonGator -  I love your disarming wit.  Your kindness shines through your words.  However, I think I will still avoid using the term 'deviant' when attempting compliments  

@Eowyn - Beautifully stated.  Both my friend and myself find great solace in the scriptures - especially in the 4 Gospels.

[Suzie]

12 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Well, since none of us are Jesus, or perfect as He has always been, and none of us given the responsibility (thank goodness) or authority of Jesus, we have to turn to the scriptures to learn how we, mortals with infantile knowledge and experience, are taught to behave (emphasis mine):

 

 

As always, you always bring the most important aspect to this type of discussion: The compassion and gentle approach. Thanks Eowyn.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Suzie

[Suzie]

On 1/25/2017 at 0:07 AM, Jojo Bags said:

 Homosexuality is nothing more than being possessed by an evil spirit of the opposite sex.

And your  evidence is...?

Edited February 12, 2017 by Suzie
Jojo Bags, read your link which by the way it is just opinion and interpretation, not evidence. A scientific approach on this topic is indispensable (in my view).

[yjacket]

10 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.  Please remember - my friend is not trying to change society - not gay, not a cross-dresser, no surgeries - nothing.  If this is about maintaining the status quo, then you have no need to be concerned about them.  

I guess if the idea I've suggested that in heaven our bodies will be the perfect reflection of our spirits is a threat to your beliefs (don't mean that in a patronizing way), then I guess I am a threat.  Though I believe that statement is believed by most members as well.  Yes, yes - what that means is debated - but that hope I think is common.

Regardless, I do agree with you that this isn't normal.  Nobody IS transgender.  That's just the word we use on earth to describe the feeling of conflict.  Everyone is either male or female in spirit.  And in heaven everyone's eternal body will align with that identity.  I am very glad their state of conflict is temporary.  

@MormonGator -  I love your disarming wit.  Your kindness shines through your words.  However, I think I will still avoid using the term 'deviant' when attempting compliments  

@Eowyn - Beautifully stated.  Both my friend and myself find great solace in the scriptures - especially in the 4 Gospels.

I agree with much of what you've said. My point has been that while this individual certainly has the right to think that a mistake was made and their spirit is the opposite of what their body is-there is absolutely nothing in scripture, Church doctrine, or words of prophets that have ever come remotely close to suggesting this-in fact the opposite of it.

I can absolutely get on board with the sentiments that these individuals are conflicted, and that they need help.  What I cannot get on board with is agreeing with the philosophy of men that their spirit is really a different gender than their body. I cannot get on board with the need to "accept" their behavior-for those who choose to act out-or that I even need to entertain these evil ideology.  If they want to believe that-fine-but we need to stand against incorrect doctrine and teach correct doctrine.

I will show you why.  You state that everyone's eternal body will align with that identity.  We know in the scriptures that our bodies will be restored to their perfect state-that not one hair on the top of the head will be lost. This means that those who have been born with physical and or mental defects will be cured or perfected. Therefore this means one of two things; in the resurrection to a Celestial body (for trans people) either your boy parts will be changed to girl parts or the mental defect (which is what I personally think it is) will be cured.  So if in the resurrection, the Celestial body really should be a girl body-why on this earth would we not want to correct that malfunction?  We attempt to correct physical deformities, but why not this one?  Which is more plausible-that transgender is a mental condition on this earth? Or a condition that needs correction in the resurrection?

I highly suggest if you want to figure this out read Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Fielding Smith-written while he was an Apostle about 60 years ago.

While your friend may not be trying to change society-plenty of individuals who are afflicted with the same problems are. plenty of evil men who are trying to destroy the family are most assuredly doing their best to change how society thinks about transgender individuals.  And they have done a really good job at it. 

None of us our Christ, and we are not the ultimate judge, but we are commanded to judge righteously. And righteousness is found in the scriptures and in the words of the prophets.

I can certainly agree that your friend is in a conflicted state and he will need the help of God and Christ to overcome this and that if not in this life in the next. If you can agree that the philosophy of their spirit gender not aligning with their mortal body is a philosophy of men and has no basis in scripture or prophets-then I think we have come to an agreement.

Edited February 12, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest MormonGator]

10 hours ago, lostinwater said:

 

@MormonGator -  I love your disarming wit.  Your kindness shines through your words.  

Very sweet of you to say. Thank you so much! 

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, yjacket said:

I agree with much of what you've said. My point has been that while this individual certainly has the right to think that a mistake was made and their spirit is the opposite of what their body is-there is absolutely nothing in scripture, Church doctrine, or words of prophets that have ever come remotely close to suggesting this-in fact the opposite of it.

The proclamation on families make it clear that spirits have gender.  For the great majority of us our physical and spiritual genders are in sync.  It make the desire to declare that our physical is always a match for our spiritual totally natural.  However we also very real cases of hermaphrodites and inter-sexed people.  By the standard of the physical matching the spiritual this would require there to be hermaphroditic and inter-sexed spirits.  There is absolute no support for that idea, and some pretty clear contrary indicators.

Lucky for us there is an other option and over abundance of support for the idea that the physical can be flawed, corrupted, broken etc.  Therefore is it very easy to understand that hermaphrodites and inter-sexed represent physical brokenness and have compassion.  However we must remember that "physical" as I have used it also means carnal, also means the "Natural Man" which the scriptures call out as an enemy.

The Natural Man encompasses intangibles like "Lust" and "Desire" and even "Sense of Identity."  It is God's command that we overcome all the "Natural Man" in this sense and put our spirits in charge.  This battle goes on in everyone.  And we need to support and encourage everyone to fight to put on the Spiritual.  However we also should remember that these Natural Man intangibles are part of a mortal and fallen world, which means they can also be broken.  Just like anything else that is part of the mortal and fallen world.  The problem is, is that we can not see this "brokenness" we can only go by what people tell us about themselves.  If something is broken it is clearly not working correctly, which could mean it is doing the opposite of what is intended.

But being "broken" in this sense does not mean a person is exempted from the requirement to cover come.  We are all broken in one way or another and none of us are exempted, it just means that this trial is very difficult.  This can be compounded by people who "can't see" the brokenness, but are otherwise well meaning.  The Christ-like thing to do is to treat the brokenness of others with the same care that we would want them to have for our own brokenness.

 

[yjacket]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

  For the great majority of us our physical and spiritual genders are in sync. 

 

ergo for some people it is not (smacks head).  Again, this statement has absolutely 0 basis in Church doctrine or scriptures.  This is my point.  This is a philosophy of man mingled with scripture. 

It is so amazing that people can't see this. 100% we know gender is an eternal principle, i.e. spirits have gender.  There is absolutely 0 doctrinal basis for the idea that the spirit gender and the mortal body can be "out of sync".  Nothing, 0, nada, zilc.  The idea that they can be out of sync is not supported anywhere-except in the minds of those who accept this pernicious, evil doctrine.

I don't know how much more simple it can be. CFR that this philosophy is supported by Church doctrine.

You won't, you can't, it is a philosophy of men . . .mingled with scripture-have you been to the Temple? How much more plain can it get?

The really sad commentary that is occurring within the members of the Church is that they would rather subscribe to current social beliefs rather than read what Apostles, Prophets, and scriptures have said and taught.  They let the media do the thinking for them rather than go to the source of Truth and Light. 

I ask you, which is more in line with the revealed Word of God? That their spirit is a different gender than their body or that their is something wrong with their mind and mental state?

Edited February 12, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest]

Scriptural cherry picking isn't unique to dissidents and "progressives".

[yjacket]

6 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Scriptural cherry picking isn't unique to dissidents and "progressives".

A statement, intended to deflect on the plain truths about this topic.

I may not have the best ability to say things with the "right" tact-but prove me wrong on the doctrinal, scriptural basis with this topic, Eowyn.

Edited February 12, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest]

I agree with 95% of what you're saying, but I believe the way you go about it is often contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures, and will bring no souls to Christ.

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, yjacket said:

ergo for some people it is not (smacks head).  Again, this statement has absolutely 0 basis in Church doctrine or scriptures.  This is my point.  This is a philosophy of man mingled with scripture. 

It is so amazing that people can't see this. 100% we know gender is an eternal principle, i.e. spirits have gender.  There is absolutely 0 doctrinal basis for the idea that the spirit gender and the mortal body can be "out of sync".  Nothing, 0, nada, zilc.  The idea that they can be out of sync is not supported anywhere-except in the minds of those who accept this pernicious, evil doctrine.

I don't know how much more simple it can be. CFR that this philosophy is supported by Church doctrine.

You won't, you can't, it is a philosophy of men . . .mingled with scripture-have you been to the Temple? How much more plain can it get?

The really sad commentary that is occurring within the members of the Church is that they would rather subscribe to current social beliefs rather than read what Apostles, Prophets, and scriptures have said and taught.  They let the media do the thinking for them rather than go to the source of Truth and Light. 

What part of broken and flawed mortally is not doctrinally based?  Please cite your source.

It is a simple fact that there are some people that feel that their bodies are out of sync... this is well and repeatedly documented.  The reason they feel out of sync is not understood.

The idea that some people put forth for this reason is that God made a mistake.  This is contrary to all doctrine.

The idea that some people feel out of sync because this is a fallen world and God is testing us in all things including flawed and dysfunction bodies for some people.. well can't be proven in this case.  But is solidly enough established in other cases, that one can not ignore it, if they are seriously discussing the issue, rather then blindly attacking.

 

[yjacket]

27 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I agree with 95% of what you're saying, but I believe the way you go about it is often contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures, and will bring no souls to Christ.

That is fine you disagree with my as anatesse says "salt-of the earth" way. And I understand that in many cases, what is seen here is only one side of the equation. I think you confuse hate of the philosophy of men and evil doctrine with hate of an individual. And absolutely that is 100% not the case. Those individuals who suffer or through choice become LGBTQ, etc. are Children of God, heirs to His throne-God loves them more than they can possibly imagine.  His Son died on the cross so that they might live with Him. And yes, we need the pure Love of Christ-it is the only thing that will heal this broken world.

But as a parent the one thing I have learned is that love unfeigned comes with a huge responsibility-that is the responsibility to correct when necessary. And as members of the Church, we need to be extremely careful about allowing the philosophies of men to enter into our lives.  If we accept a doctrine that is not supported by scriptures, then we should keep it to ourselves. The only other reason to discuss a doctrine not supported by scripture is to either convince ourselves more of that doctrine or to convince others of it.

Absolutely for individuals who struggle or choose LGBT, etc they have issues.  I don't claim to know why they struggle or choose it, nobody knows, all we do know is what is correct behavior and doctrine. Very few people on this earth will be able to understand what they are going through-in fact the only one who does is God and Jesus Christ. So rather than talk to a message board about it-talk to God about it. I have many pains in my life that in today's parlance I "suffer in silence", but I don't really "suffer in silence", I suffer under God's grace and His Son, but I don't need to talk about it.

The very first principles of the Gospel are 1st Faith in God and Jesus Christ and 2nd Repentance. How can one repent if one doesn't know the difference between what is right and what is wrong?

Edited February 12, 2017 by yjacket

[yjacket]

13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

What part of broken and flawed mortally is not doctrinally based?  Please cite your source.

It is a simple fact that there are some people that feel that their bodies are out of sync... this is well and repeatedly documented.  The reason they feel out of sync is not understood.

The idea that some people put forth for this reason is that God made a mistake.  This is contrary to all doctrine.

The idea that some people feel out of sync because this is a fallen world and God is testing us in all things including flawed and dysfunction bodies for some people.. well can't be proven in this case.  But is solidly enough established in other cases, that one can not ignore it, if they are seriously discussing the issue, rather then blindly attacking.

 

Okay, maybe we are coming a little closer to agreement. But you still didn't answer the question.

The doctrine that are spirit can be one gender and our bodies be another gender has no basis in scripture, Church doctrine, etc.  

Please address that line above.

[estradling75]

Just now, yjacket said:

Okay, maybe we are coming a little closer to agreement. But you still didn't answer the question.

The doctrine that are spirit can be one gender and our bodies be another gender has no basis in scripture, Church doctrine, etc.  

Please address that line above.

I didn't answer the question... because I did not make the claim.

I said  "For the great majority of us our physical and spiritual genders are in sync."  For greater clarification I could of said "Feel in sync"

For the others I never said that they were "out of sync" but that they could very well be damaged.  Such damage can be the cause of why that they "Feel" out of sync.

If someone has a broken bone we accept that that person is going to be limited and restricted on what they can do until they heal.  The same would hold true for broken sexual desires/identity.  The thing is, is that we can see clearly diagnose broken bones with the proper tools/experience.  The only diagnostic we have for the broken identity/desire is how an individual feels... which in many ways is a lousy diagnostic tool.  We have no way of telling who might be just a bit confused, and who needs more serious help.  

[yjacket]

4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

I said  "For the great majority of us our physical and spiritual genders are in sync."  For greater clarification I could of said "Feel in sync"  

I can certainly get on board with "feel in sync" vs. "in sync" and there is a very important difference between the two.

There is a very important shift that is occurring among culture; transgender, just like homosexuality although much earlier, was recently removed from the DSM and classification as a "mental disorder".

And how or why does something get removed from the DSM? It gets removed when they vote on it. It is a social construct that gets voted on.

" The British Psychological Society stated in its June 2011 response to DSM-5 draft versions, that it had "more concerns than plaudits".^[67] It criticized proposed diagnoses as "clearly based largely on social norms, with 'symptoms' that all rely on subjective judgements... not value-free, but rather reflect[ing] current normative social expectations", noting doubts over the reliability, validity, and value of existing criteria, that personality disorders were not normed on the general population, and that "not otherwise specified" categories covered a "huge" 30% of all personality disorders. "

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by yjacket

[lostinwater]

6 hours ago, yjacket said:

A statement, intended to deflect on the plain truths about this topic.

I may not have the best ability to say things with the "right" tact-but prove me wrong on the doctrinal, scriptural basis with this topic, Eowyn.

Thank-you.  @yjacket - I think you are far kinder and more understanding than many people would suppose - the more I see of what you have to say.  I admire your passion.  I tend to be more cynical and willing to rationalize - more so I think than I should - were I to be honest.  And you are right - I know there are things that everyone struggles with - and just keep to themselves.  I admire this in you.

Though, I have looked quite a while and I can find nothing in the scriptures that condemns feelings of gender dysphoria - or even says that they are wrong.  I mean, it talks about gender.  It says God created men and women.  It certainly seems to frown heavily on the expression of homosexuality Check and check and check.  No arguments.  I'm not seeing anything inconsistent with what my friend has expressed.  I'm pretty certain there is nothing in scripture that says that every spirit is 100% guaranteed to be placed in a body that matches the gender which they truly are.  Rather, there are millions upon millions of instances where this is obviously not the case.  To now, I think most people classify those as allowable exceptions - merely because they are visible to their own two mortal eyes.  Anything more subtle though is classified as a mental illness or willful sin.  Sort of like how people 100 years ago might have viewed someone with MS or Lupus as being lazy or lacking willpower.  

I think pretty much what has happened is that people have looked upon the visible transgender community - the one that sues the boy scouts, who cross-dress, want kids to choose their gender in elementary school, etc.,   - and based on things like that - which I agree are harmful to society - assume that anything remotely like gender dysphoria is a total abomination. And who can blame them?  I honestly cannot.  Our perceptions are largely a function of what we've experienced and the people we've known.  Not completely, but mostly.

We all get thrown into a meat grinder at various points in our lives.  And after a session in that grinder called life, each one of us emerges bleeding a little bit differently.  The ones who happen to be heavy, messy bleeders, whose blood ruins our furniture and stains our carpet are the ones society hates and fears.  They fill our prisons and our mental hospitals.  They rail against the church and are unable to let go.  They wave signs and commit crimes.  I don't like what the activist trans community does either - but knowing that they hear us using or sense us thinking words like "pervert" and "queer" and "willfully sinful" and "rebellious" - is it not slightly inaccurate to neatly and totally classify their cause and anger as unjust?

And as far as scriptural cherry picking - @Eowyn - I agree.  Everyone cherry picks with the scriptures.  EVERYONE.  Think you shouldn't eat meat?  No problems, got a scripture for that.  Think you should eat meat?  Or want to eat meat but not pork.  You, my friend, are good to go.  Want to justify a man divorcing his wife, or want to condemn someone for getting divorced?  Scriptures for those as well.  For Mormons - whether you think family history, teaching the youth, family, a mission, or activity in the church is most important - I guarantee you, some seer-level man at some point has a quote you can use.  Maybe this is why I've retreated into the four Gospels and rely on my own feelings and what I hope is a semi-malleable view of things that God can always work to shape.  There are more than enough scriptures that mormons, catholics, JWs, etc., each ignore - or come up with some rather confusing nonsensical explanation for - asking people to apply their faith to overlook it for now.  And don't mistake that as rejection of organized religion on my part.  I think organized religion is a very good thing - despite it's many flaws.  And in fairness, there are plenty of scriptures that I ignore in my own view of things because I can't make sense of it.

One thing I find very sad - is that we are so busy trying to eliminate all the controversial differences that we (and I am as guilty in this as anyone) never appreciate the beauty and honest striving that lies underneath them.  Haven't each one of us lost someone and felt sorrow that in all our attempts to fix them we missed our opportunity to appreciate and learn from them?  Maybe that's why I posted this here.  It's my effort to reach out - to express my views and engage - so that God can take the ideas I have - some of which are no doubt boxed-up, hypocritically and perhaps innocently ignorant - and shape them into something that is more correct.  I still feel right about what I've expressed - but I can see that perhaps we are not as far apart as I would have thought at the start of this thread - and certainly can see that people like @yjacket who disagree with me - even passionately - knows truths that God needs me to learn.

[anatess2]

On 2/12/2017 at 2:02 PM, yjacket said:

That is fine you disagree with my as anatesse says "salt-of the earth" way.

Hey hey hey... I got a mention! 

Okay, yjacket... I agree with you and I understand your stalwart staking of your ensign.  When I read your posts here the image that goes on my head is Captain Moroni, ensign on one hand, sword on the other.

That said, your statement that a person with mortal boy parts will always be - 100% and in all cases - a spiritual boy is something that I don't quite subscribe to.  I don't necessarily disagree with it because it could possibly be that it is the truth.  The only difference with my position is that I am open to the possibility that the mortal body parts, by virtue of being mortal, does not indicate the spiritual gender in 100% of all cases - but may simply be a mortal challenge strapped on to the eternal spirit on a select few.  The plain and simple fact that a mortal body may come out of the womb without a clear body part to indicate its gender such that the parent/doctor has to make the "best guess" as to what gender the infant is assigned to already points to this mortal anomaly.  What scripture supports this?  The same scripture that supports why people are strapped with all kinds of mortal challenges - basically, the teaching of The Fall.

I can understand your resistance to that possibility because your natural conclusion to the consideration of that possibility is that these people will be an exception to the commandments of the Proclamation.  I don't believe that this is the conclusion to that consideration at all.  Rather, the commandments are given to these spirits in equal measure as all the others with all kinds of mortal challenges such that, it doesn't matter if the mortal boy is not a spiritual boy, he still gets to follow the commandments in mortality as a boy as the commandments are given to our mortal selves unless, of course, the power of revelation and discernment given to the Prophets cause the Prophets to reveal to him that he needs to follow the commandments in mortality as a girl.

Edited February 14, 2017 by anatess2

[a mustard seed]

My consideration for this topic goes into something that I haven't seen anyone bring up. I have utmost sympathy for these individuals who feel so conflicted inside and definitely take the stance that "Heavenly Father didn't make me responsible for judging who deserves my love and acceptance; He in fact said leave that up to Him but for me to love all my brothers and sisters(sorry, I forget the scripture) and that love and setting an example are right up there next to teaching with the spirit as far as how we should approach people. Condemnation of sin and reprimand is for church leaders, those closer to God than I who can decide with a measure of authority on what behaviors to rebuke and how much patience and teaching is necessary. My only job is to love until I am made responsible for some of the flock and bringing them to righteousness." For this specific case, I think talking about it and asking questions is certainly a private matter that this person can do exploring on their own and have their own personal revelations. If they came to me and told me they believed they were a different gendered spirit, I would not really focus on that at all. I'd say something like, "We are all His children and deserving of His love" and leave it at that, instead focusing on areas of the gospel that I do know about and showing an example to them of service, temple work, and other things we could do together to emulate Christ. If at any time I thought that his personal thoughts were a result of him not being close to Christ, I would not focus so much on something that I do not feel has a lot of actual 100% certain revelation attached to it and instead focus on the  things we could do to bring us both closer to Christ. If they were acting upon it, I'd approach it with a counsel to talk to the bishop or somebody and continue on with the same above.

On a much broader aspect of the subject, unrelated to the OP, I have an issue with the mainstream presentation of transgenderism because of how it has morphed with non-binary, agender, and kin culture. It is a destruction of objective truth in place of subjective truth, which makes every individual's perception correct, despite what we can observe about the concrete universe. It also leads to toxic ideas like "words are violence"(if my existence/identity is based around a feeling and you reject that, then isn't it true that you are trying to destroy me? You telling me my feelings aren't real is equal to you telling me that I don't have a right to exist. Validation and acceptance then becomes necessary for my survival and disagreement becomes a threat to my humanity; I then have a right to defend myself, physically if necessary). That is really the only thing I take issue with regarding it all. If it were just about love and these people needing love, then I'd gladly give it. But this gender culture, although small right now, is a wider problem of insecurity within our society. It becomes a danger for me then to express any opinion because at any time, I might be contrary to someone's subjective truth, thus, "harming" them and justifying their reaction which is ever increasingly becoming a feral flailing at anyone and anything in the way. There are other cultures that overlap with this and react the same way but I've seen this a lot with the gender issue.

[Rob Osborn]

With my young men I teach the "manly men" mentality where one works hard, learns to take some things in pain, and come out in the end a little bit stronger. No room for little micro-aggression nonsense! I worry that boys are slowly forgetting how to be men and become forged in the furnace of affliction. Gender guidance now has come into play whereas before one just did what his physical gender expected him to do naturally.

[Mike]

I'm thinking about gender being an essential characteristic of premortal and eternal identity; and I'm thinking about male or female spirits. Aside from the traditional roles in so many mortal cultures, the ways males and females are traditionally supposed to behave, (and of course the mortal gender biological and physiological contrasts common to so many other organisms on the planet) I'm having difficulty picturing what it means to be a male or a female spirit. I'm having even more difficulty picturing what it means to be a male or female "intelligence". (If what I'm wondering about has already been asked and answered I overlooked it.)

Edited February 15, 2017 by Mike