Had hour long convo and priesthood blessing from Stake President on plural marriage obsession on Sunday

[Mike]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Of course we can.  You just have a strange way of putting it. 

 

Me?  Hahaha, ditto.

 

[anatess2]

Just now, Mike said:

Me?  Hahaha, ditto.

 

See, we agree again! 

 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See, we agree again! 

 

I've known a lot of women, and one thing I've learned (I keep telling myself) over and over is when to give up.

Anyway, for me there was no choice when I met her.  It felt like a wonderful fall. And  every time I saw her again I fell over and over. I guess the choices were to keep coming back for more. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Mike

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, what happened to the guy's companion?  5th wheels and back seaters like me demand to know!

...had some PTSD issues when he came home that caused him to drown himself in alcohol ... his wife left him though when he became an alcoholic.

That is so totally not what I wanted to hear, it's not even funny.  

[Guest]

Any guesses what the church would do if the Supreme Court ever overturned the Edmunds Act?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Zarahemla said:

Any guesses what the church would do if the Supreme Court ever overturned the Edmunds Act?

WOO-HOO! DUDE! THE FLOODGATES WOULD OPEN! WOMEN, COME TO PAPA!

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

WOO-HOO! DUDE! THE FLOODGATES WOULD OPEN! WOMEN, COME TO PAPA!

I was going to make a joke, and then I remembered the compound.  So now I'm thinking maybe @MormonGator and the rest of us should start a seminar series - we could tour the country doing training: Tips and Tricks for the Polygamy Newbie... or How to Build Your Own Compound in Zion...

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Any guesses what the church would do if the Supreme Court ever overturned the Edmunds Act?

I'd imagine the same thing they did when Gay Marriage went through the Supreme Court.  With that court ruling, there is a MASSIVELY HUGE hole which basically should allow Polygamous marriages, if the church wished to pursue that avenue.

I do not imagine that they want to go down that dark path.

First, I think that if the church ever reinstituted Polygamy, they'd lost a LOT of members VERY rapidly.  They'd get a LOT of bad PR very rapidly.  It could be a very bad time for the church.

I don't think the membership could take it, and I don't think the church wants to deal with those issues that would arise both inside the church and without in today's climate.

Personally  (and I've expressed my views on polygamy in other threads), I don't think it's something that really needs to be looked at right now anyways.  My thoughts below are probably HEAVILY influenced by my opinions because I am NOT in favor of polygamy (and in fact am probably more against polygamy as a practice than for it).

1.  I am happy just having ONE spouse.  I can only see detrimental things in my marriage if there was more than one.

2. Why would any reasonable person want more than one spouse?  Except for worldly ideas, I cannot think of one.  The only real reason I could fathom is if the LORD commanded someone to do so, and in that instance, that is obeying the Lord, not because of worldly lust or other factors.  Right now the commandment is to love your spouse and ONLY your ONE spouse in this manner.  Thus, there is no reason to look forwards or backwards at the idea of ever being in a polygamous union.  We should be concerned with the laws and commandments relevant to OUR day rather than for other times and seasons.

3.  Jacob (BOM) stated bad things about polygamy.  Abraham had terrible strife in his home due to polygamy resulting in the eventual banishment of a concubine and son.  Jacob (Bible) had terrible strife between sisters in his home due to polygamy.  David fell despite having polygamy.  Solomon had terrible things happen to his faith despite his wisdom due to his polygamy.  The Scriptures are rife with more things that are bad that occur in polygamous marriages than positive.  I think that's a challenge that many may think they want, but I think many who may want that, may actually be more prone to the faults that we see in the scriptures that occur rather than a more positive experience.  There is no reason in our day to seek polygamy nor it's return.

4.  When asking what would happen, and why the church would reinstitute the law of polygamy, we need to ask WHY they might do this.  It was never actually repealed, just the practice of it among living individuals concurrently.  IT originally caused a lot of hardship, turmoil, and grief when it was around in our Latter day.  It was a commandment of the Lord and it was a trial for those who were there.  In our lives, do we feel we WANT more trials than we already have.  To many of those who want it to return, I do not think many see how much of a trial it really is, and want it to return for other reasons than that the Lord commands.  However, this is a GREAT trial of faith, and was a hard trial for many in the early days of the church.  We, as a church have already gone through this fire and the edge of this trial.  Do we really need to have this trial upon the church once again?

Nevertheless, as the Lord commands, the church will do.  However, as I do not see any great push presently in the LDS church to pursue this course of action, even if the Edmunds act was repealed, I highly doubt the practice of having concurrent living spouses in marriage would be resurrected as a policy or acceptable in the LDS church presently.

Edited April 21, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'd imagine the same thing they did when Gay Marriage went through the Supreme Court.  With that court ruling, there is a MASSIVELY HUGE hole which basically should allow Polygamous marriages, if the church wished to pursue that avenue.

I do not imagine that they want to go down that dark path.

First, I think that if the church ever reinstituted Polygamy, they'd lost a LOT of members VERY rapidly.  They'd get a LOT of bad PR very rapidly.  It could be a very bad time for the church.

I don't think the membership could take it, and I don't think the church wants to deal with those issues that would arise both inside the church and without in today's climate.

Personally  (and I've expressed my views on polygamy in other threads), I don't think it's something that really needs to be looked at right now anyways.  My thoughts below are probably HEAVILY influence by my opinions in regards to not being in favor of polygamy.

1.  I am happy just having ONE spouse.  I can only see detrimental things in my marriage if there was more than one.

2. Why would any reasonable person want more than one spouse?  Except for worldly ideas, I cannot think of one.  The only real reason I could fathom is if the LORD commanded someone to do so, and in that instance, that is obeying the Lord, not because of worldly lust or other factors.  Right now the commandment is to love your spouse and ONLY your ONE spouse in this manner.  Thus, there is no reason to look forwards or backwards at the idea of ever being in a polygamous union.  We should be concerned with the laws and commandments relevant to OUR day rather than for other times and seasons.

3.  Jacob (BOM) stated bad things about polygamy.  Abraham had terrible strife in his home due to polygamy resulting in the eventual banishment of a concubine and son.  Jacob (Bible) had terrible strife between sisters in his home due to polygamy.  David fell despite having polygamy.  Solomon had terrible things happen to his faith despite his wisdom due to his polygamy.  The Scriptures are rife with more things that are bad that occur in polygamous marriages than positive.  I think that's a challenge that many may think they want, but I think many who may want that, may actually be more prone to the faults that we see in the scriptures that occur rather than a more positive experience.  There is no reason in our day to seek polygamy nor it's return.

4.  When asking what would happen, and why the church would reinstitute the law of polygamy, we need to ask WHY they might do this.  It was never actually repealed, just the practice of it among living individuals concurrently.  IT originally caused a lot of hardship, turmoil, and grief when it was around in our Latter day.  It was a commandment of the Lord and it was a trial for those who were there.  In our lives, do we feel we WANT more trials than we already have.  To many of those who want it to return, I do not think many see how much of a trial it really is, and want it to return for other reasons than that the Lord commands.  However, this is a GREAT trial of faith, and was a hard trial for many in the early days of the church.  We, as a church have already gone through this fire and the edge of this trial.  Do we really need to have this trial upon the church once again?

Nevertheless, as the Lord commands, the church will do.  However, as I do not see any great push presently in the LDS church to pursue this course of action, even if the Edmunds act was repealed, I highly doubt the practice of having concurrent living spouses in marriage would be resurrected as a policy or acceptable in the LDS church presently.

I agree with you and am interested in your thoughts on how marriage will be in the Millennium and Celestial Kingdom.

[Guest]

I think there will be those who are happy to live the principal and will, and those who would rather not and won't. My in-laws openly talk about how they can see the joys of it. Faramir and I would rather not.

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I agree with you and am interested in your thoughts on how marriage will be in the Millennium and Celestial Kingdom.

In all honesty, the scriptures do not really go into detail about this.  Even the items stated by prophets and apostles tend to be more of the opinion rather than doctrinal analysis or theological ideas (in the similar vein of thinking there were inhabitants living on the moon...which was an opinion that didn't quite turn out like that).  We don't really know though many have opinions on it.

I don't even really have solid opinions, more like thoughts on the matter. 

There are those who feel that all sorts of odd things will happen in the millennium.  I on the otherhand, feel differently.  I think life, as we know it, will largely be in the manner that we see it here today.  We will still work, we will still eat, we will still worship.

The differences is that because of the righteousness of the people, it will be like the generations of peace after the Savior came in the Book of Mormon where for 4 generations they were at peace, lived the law of consecration, and worshipped the Lord.  It did not negate the needs that existed, but they lived a higher law and a higher order.

Another difference is that the heavens will be opened.  Those that have passed on will be able to have communication and talking to with those still on the Earth.  The books of heaven will be open to those on Earth.  This actually might be able to happen today if we were righteous enough, but we are not.  They will be in the millennium.  A Great amount of Temple work will be able to be done. 

Those who have been translated will be able to also reside on this earth during this time.  I do not know how long they will stay here until they are taken off the earth and receive their reward, but they will also be here.

I do not think those who have been resurrected will be here.  Resurrection is, in a way, part of the judgment and your reward will be decided.  This is NOT necessarily the final judgment (it would be the one who receives their reward's final judgment, but not THE final judgment of the Lord).  The Final Judgment is where those who are the last are to be judged.  There can be others who received their judgment and rewards prior to this event.  This happened previously in the original resurrection after the Lord's resurrection, and I expect it will occur during the millennium at times as well.

Those who have received their reward may return and visit the Earth if sent on a mission from heaven, but otherwise, it will largely be like it is today with the rules and laws that pertain to us, still relevant.  Will there be polygamy?  Possibly, but also possibly not.  The world is not going to be largely different in and of itself, the inhabitants will be.

Those who die will be changed in a twinkle of an eye.  There will be no need to linger in the ground.  Their resurrection may come quickly, and then they may go onto their final reward, much like what happened to the resurrected during the first go around after the Lord's resurrection.

I believe the Book of Mormon to be literal.  I also believe it to be allegory of the world's history.  In this, we can see the time of the Lord's coming as a parallel to our times and the millennium.  We can also see, if we wish to look forward over a thousand years, what the end of the world would be like as it was with the Jaredites and eventually the Nephites.

When we go to the Celestial Kingdom, we will still be able to converse with each other, to be friends and to associate with one another, much like we do here on Earth.  However, we will be in a much holier sphere.

Our primary focus will to honor our Father, and to raise righteous families.  Our goals will be similar to what fathers and mothers living in righteousness have here on Earth, except we won't go about it in the same way.  Mothers' will be responsible to raise their children in the ways of righteousness.  Fathers will be responsible to provide a home and the things needed for life.  They will have the power to create worlds and places of safety.  Their children will grow up, and eventually need to make choices of their own on whether to be like their Parents, or go their own way. 

Will there be polygamy there, probably.  At the least, those who were joined into polygamous marriages on this earth and had them sealed will practice it.  The parents will STILL have their responsibilities, and Fathers will still need to provide for their children and mothers to raise them.

Will it be for everyone.  As Nephi stated...I do not know the meaning of all things.  I do NOT know.  I cannot even pretend to know.  I have some ideas that aren't even up to the spec of thought, but in all honesty, I have NO IDEA.

This is my view of those periods, or at least my thoughts currently.

Edited April 21, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

That is so totally not what I wanted to hear, it's not even funny.  

He tells me all the time... I should've taken your advice and married a Filipino. 

 

[Guest]

The most important thing to me about polygamy in the afterlife is that all the women love each other and they all consent and love each other like sisters. Without that it would never worK and everyones happiness matters.

[Vort]

Zarahemla, since you have received a blessing that answered your questions, I suggest that you put this issue aside and quit thinking about it. Consider it a done deal, something that you don't have to deal with, and give yourself the next ten years to quit thinking about it altogether.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

The most important thing to me about polygamy in the afterlife is that all the women love each other and they all consent and love each other like sisters. Without that it would never worK and everyones happiness matters.

 

Do you imagine there will be individuals in the Celestial Kingdom who do not consent to love others?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Zarahemla, since you have received a blessing that answered your questions, I suggest that you put this issue aside and quit thinking about it. Consider it a done deal, something that you don't have to deal with, and give yourself the next ten years to quit thinking about it altogether.

I'll try. Let's hope im alive in 10 years. 

[Guest]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

 

Do you imagine there will be individuals in the Celestial Kingdom who do not consent to love others?

No I do not.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I'll try. Let's hope im alive in 10 years. 

Dude, you are still a young man! I hope you are alive for the next  FIFTY years! 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Dude, you are still a young man! I hope you are alive for the next  FIFTY years! 

Thanks I appreciate it.

[Guest]

I am very confused by a couple of contradicting scriptures and wonder why they contradict. Jacob 2 says what David and Solomon did was an abomination yet D&C 132 says they were justified in the Lord. Which is the correct scripture Book of Mormon or D&C?

[person0]

9 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I am very confused by a couple of contradicting scriptures and wonder why they contradict. Jacob 2 says what David and Solomon did was an abomination yet D&C 132 says they were justified in the Lord. Which is the correct scripture Book of Mormon or D&C?

I actually have provided an explanation of how both can be true at the same in another thread:

Here is what I said after comparing both verses:

Quote

I would venture to say that it is more likely that the Lord is revealing information line-upon-line when speaking to the Nephites regarding plural marriage.  He had not issued a commandment to them to practice polygamy, they still wanted an excuse because of David and Solomon.  Even though David and Solomon had initially entered into many marriage covenants righteously, they also did "things which they did not receive of [the Lord]", therefore, He could righteously reveal only this precept to the Nephites because it is what they needed to hear in order to repent since they received no such commandment.

 

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I am very confused by a couple of contradicting scriptures and wonder why they contradict. Jacob 2 says what David and Solomon did was an abomination yet D&C 132 says they were justified in the Lord. Which is the correct scripture Book of Mormon or D&C?

@Zarahemla: Give it a rest, bro. Forget about it. You got your blessing, and it set your mind at ease. So quit focusing on it. Don't think about polygamy again until at least 2027. Just stop.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

@Zarahemla: Give it a rest, bro. Forget about it. You got your blessing, and it set your mind at ease. So quit focusing on it. Don't think about polygamy again until at least 2027. Just stop.

Don't tell me what to do my mind will focus on what it wants to focus on without my control. Not my fault there are confusing contradicting scriptures.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Zarahemla

[JohnsonJones]

The scriptures are not contradicting per se.

Polygamy is ONLY correct when ordered by the Lord.  When it is NOT ordered by the Lord, it is a sin.

Furthermore, when a law is used as an excuse, or not taken as seriously as it should be, it can lead to sin.

David and Solomon were given wives in polygamous marriages.  Instead of being content with what they were given, they lived the law beyond what it was, and did not take the law as seriously as they should have.  This practice thus, instead of building them upwards, eventually tore them down in sin.  Polygamy can be a very perilous edge to man, and unless one always walks uprightly, can lead to one's destruction instead of exaltation.  It is a harder trial than many would realize, especially because temptation thus increases, rather than decreases (contrary to what many probably would think) if the scriptures and our own LDS history are any indication of what the reality of practicing polygamy results in.

Jacob's people were commanded not to practice polygamy.  Any who did so, no matter what excuse they were doing, were committing sin.  There were many who tried to use the excuse of David and Solomon.  This did not excuse their sin.  Their sin made many of their wives very sad and unhappy.  It brought great unhappiness to the people.  Furthermore, in their excuses, they ignored the trials that brought the sins that ultimately destroyed David and Solomon.  Ironically it was those sins that David and Solomon were participating in that were actually the excuses being focused on by the people in Jacob's day to say they were allowed or even supposed to practice polygamy.  They did not focus on the fact that the LORD gave David the wives that were allowed, but instead on the Lusts that eventually brought David to sin, and the other reasons for marriage (diplomatic, wealth, etc) that led Solomon down the road to eventual apostasy.  This is why Jacob hits upon many of these things that David and Solomon did which were abominable in the Lord.  With the things the Lord gave them, they were righteous in polygamy.  In the things which they used to practice plural marriage where it was NOT commanded of the Lord, it was a great sin and abomination before the Lord.

Today, if one is wondering about polygamy, be satisfied with what they have been given and know already.  Do NOT strive after polygamy.  It is NOT commanded of them to practice it in our day.  If one is striving for polygamy in our day, it is like those in Jacobs time that strove after polygamy.  They saw the unrighteous items that David and Solomon sought for, and instead committed the SAME abominations that David and Solomon committed that eventually led them to their destruction. 

Some excuses today sometimes also do the same as the people in Jacobs time.  For example, one individual in the history of the church said that any man that wished to attain exaltation needed to be married to at least three women.  Some, today, take that as a reason to seek after polygamy.  Afterall, how can they be saved if they do not have this.  However, this is NOT a commandment for our time, and it is NOT a commandment for our day.  Jacob (from the bible this time) was a mighty and great prophet.  He had two wives.  Who would say he is not the anointed of the Lord?  Indeed, I would say he would go to his exaltation far before many of us.

Adam was married to ONE wife.  He is the mightiest of the Angels, or at least the Arch angel.  Who would say that he is not chosen of the Lord?

They had commandments for their time and they followed them.  They did not pay heed to those things which were not pertinent to them.  Seeking after things which are not given to us, in the light that past or future generations had them, can only lead to pain and strife at the least, and at the worst, dreadful and terrible sin.

If polygamy is something that was promised you would practice at some future point, be content with that answer.  For now, live your life in such a way that you can actually live the laws that pertain to the here and now, rather than things that are not currently in force.  If, as chance may be, the occasion arises that you would need to practice polygamy or any other law, and it has been made aware to you, then live your life according to the laws today, and be content to know that when the time comes, the Lord knows all things and commands all things.

I would say, the first thing you would need to worry about is NOT multiple wives.  If you are unmarried, the first thing you need to worry about is finding ONE wife.  If you have the opportunity in this life and the faculties to be married in the temple, and do NOT...I think wondering about how polygamy may affect you in eternity is the LEAST of your worries.

Next, after you find a wife that will marry you for all time and eternity, focus on HER desires and wants.  You may find that the idea of polygamy disgusts her (not necessarily, but it is a possibility).  Instead of trying to force your views on her, think about WHY she feels that way, and how you can truly love her as she deserves as a daughter of God, a daughter of Heavenly Father, and a daughter of the Ruler of all existence.  Put HER FIRST in your life.  Live unselfishly.  It is hard to put your wife first if you are striving to find another.  I have seen enough follow that route into sin and excommunication that it is actually rather frightening.  MANY who have this happen to them, try to cite some of the things I mentioned above.  DO NOT follow their examples.  Instead, ALWAYS put the wife of your heart and your youth FIRST.

By putting her thoughts, desires, needs, and hopes in righteousness before your own, everything else that is necessary and needful for you to obtain exaltation will follow, in this life or the next. 

In otherwords, get married and then put your wife before yourself in righteousness.  If then, the Lord commands you to practice polygamy through the PROPER channels (aka, the prophet has a revelation, or the Lord himself reveals himself to man and commands it), the proper things in life will follow.  But above all, you need to always put your wife and your spouse FIRST (well, after the Lord, but BEFORE yourself).  Then, when wondering about polygamy, ask yourself what she thinks and HOW SHE feels about it.  It is HER thoughts and concerns you need to worry about, for if you cannot handle one wife, how then would you handle more than one?

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

Now for the other side of the equation.  If you are NOT a male, and are a woman, please say so.  I took it for granted that you were male, but there is always the other side of the equation.

Some woman worry about polygamy as well, especially in the hereafter.  They do NOT want to share their husbands and spouses (and this I understand).  I can only say, in this instance, I do not know what will occur in the Celestial Kingdom exactly.  I DO know that the Lord knows each and every one of us.  He knows our concerns, our hopes, and our fears.  We seek exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom because that is where we are promised to have the greatest joy and happiness.  I think the Lord, who knows us, will only give us what we need to be happy and joyful, and will not do anything to us that would hurt or harm us in any way.

While I do not know the state of what the Celestial Kingdom will be in this regard, I think no one will be forced to live something that would make them sad, unhappy, depressed, and unjoyful.  In that, we can take comfort that in the Kingdom of Heaven, we can truly find the peace that we may be lacking in this life, and find the love that we deserve in the next.

My personal thoughts (meaning, this is NOT even an opinion, but something more fluid) is that polygamy is not going to be something we have to choose to accept or reject.  Any individual that does NOT wish to live polygamy will not need to practice polygamy in the hereafter (as long as they were not directly commanded to do so in this life personally by the Lord or his direct servants).  The Lord knows our hearts and knows our persons.  He would never do anything that would bring us misery, for that is the domain of the adversary.  The Lord rather is full of love and mercy for us, and only seeks what will bring us joy and happiness in the worlds and life to come.

Edited April 22, 2017 by JohnsonJones