Doctrine and Covenants 110:12 and keys

[askandanswer]

12  After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
 

I would have thought it would be Abraham who held and gives the keys for the gospel of Abraham rather than Elias. Would anyone care to speculate why it was Elias and not Abraham who gave these keys to Joseph Smith?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

12  After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
 

I would have thought it would be Abraham who held and gives the keys for the gospel of Abraham rather than Elias. Would anyone care to speculate why it was Elias and not Abraham who gave these keys to Joseph Smith?

Elias could be Esaias by another name (D&C 84:12-13; see https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-matthew/chapter-6?lang=eng ), and the title Eiais can be applied to Jesus Christ Himself (same source).

Abraham, having been exalted already, may have delegated the commission to do this to a former counselor (D&C 132:29; 107:29).

[askandanswer]

I think in this case, the wording of the section strongly indicates that it is not Christ that is being referred to in verse 12. Christ had already appeared to them in this vision, as described in verses 2 - 10. I agree with you that perhaps Abraham could have delegated this task to someone else although it is not easy to imagine what could have been keeping Abraham so busy that he was not able to do this job himself.

[Just_A_Guy]

The Bible Doctionary notes that D&C 27:6-7 ties an "Elias" to Gabriel, or in other words, Noah.  That would explain D&C 128:21's reference to Joseph having seen Gabriel, even though I don't think we have any other record of such a vision.  (Does that make Elijah or Moses Raphael?  Hmm...)

[Guest]

On 6/20/2017 at 5:38 AM, askandanswer said:

12  After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
 

I would have thought it would be Abraham who held and gives the keys for the gospel of Abraham rather than Elias. Would anyone care to speculate why it was Elias and not Abraham who gave these keys to Joseph Smith?

Speculate?  Sure.

I believe that Elias must actually be Bob.  I know, I know.  Bob is not a very famous prophet.  Why, he didn't even make it into the scriptures.  But Bob was still very important in his day.  Bob was extremely important in that, well, he held the keys to the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham.  So, that should tell you just how important he was.

Bob performed many miracles during his run a prophet of his era.  I believe he was even a distant cousin of Abraham, but much younger.  While Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were being prophets for the land of Mamre, Bob was preaching to the regions round about.  He even went far to the east and gave the gospel to the nation of the wise men who later got together and made a wonderful trio that rivaled the three tenors.  Yes, they were that talented.  And I believe they went on some trip somewhere else important with some special event... someone's birth as I recall.  They performed at sold out concerts there.  They were so popular, they had to sneak out in the middle of the night to get back home.

In any event.  Bob's travels also included the cultivation of cabbage.  This was actually a guiding force for him.  He kept migrating until he found the perfect climate in which to cultivate it.  Finally, he came across the Silla Empire and gave them the gift of kim chee in the earliest form.  It was over 2000 years later that the pepper was introduced to the orient where the Koreans (the descendants of Silla) created the dish of dishes we know today.  This was the greatest miracle on record. One that took over 2000 years to come to fruition.  But he set the seed (literally) and it grew.

And it is only among the Confucians of Korea where Bob's records are kept.  You're welcome.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Guest

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Speculate?  Sure.

I believe that Elias must actually be Bob.  I know, I know.  Bob is not a very famous prophet.  Why, he didn't even make it into the scriptures.  But Bob was still very important in his day.  Bob was extremely important in that, well, he held the keys to the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham.  So, that should tell you just how important he was.

Bob performed many miracles during his run a prophet of his era.  I believe he was even a distant cousin of Abraham, but much younger.  While Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were being prophets for the land of Mamre, Bob was preaching to the regions round about.  He even went far to the east and gave the gospel to the nation of the wise men who later got together and made a wonderful trio that rivaled the three tenors.  Yes, they were that talented.  And I believe they went on some trip somewhere else important with some special event... someone's birth as I recall.  They performed at sold out concerts there.  They were so popular, they had to sneak out in the middle of the night to get back home.

In any event.  Bob's travels also included the cultivation of cabbage.  This was actually a guiding force for him.  He kept migrating until he found the perfect climate in which to cultivate it.  Finally, he came across the Silla Empire and gave them the gift of kim chee in the earliest form.  It was over 2000 years later that the pepper was introduced to the orient where the Koreans (the descendants of Silla) created the dish of dishes we know today.  This was the greatest miracle on record. One that took over 2000 years to come to fruition.  But he set the seed (literally) and it grew.

And it is only among the Confusions of Korea where Bob's records are kept.  You're welcome.

I am saddened and surprised that a son of the land of kim chee should be so woefully misinformed as to its origins. I believe the Bob you are referring to was actually Bud, and he was not a distant cousin of Abraham, but a former neighbour and butler. The keys he held from Abraham were the keys to Abraham’s pantry, from which he would dispense grapes and dates.

The trio you refer to started off as a quartet, but one of its members – Bob – died, so it became a trio. And my research reveals that, far from being sell outs, the concerts were financial flops, and that’s why they had to sneak away - to escape their creditors.

And it wasn’t Bob who first cultivated cabbage in the Silian Empire – it was one of the wise men, Charles Babbage. I suspect the confusion arose when the first letters of his name and surname were reversed by a clumsy historian. While in the Silia Empire, Charles invented a machine that, 2,000 years later, and with introduction of silica, not pepper, became part of the great economic miracle of Korean growth, through the efforts of Samsung.

Really,  @Carborendum , you should have known better. Now you do  

[The Folk Prophet]

17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think in this case, the wording of the section strongly indicates that it is not Christ that is being referred to in verse 12. Christ had already appeared to them in this vision, as described in verses 2 - 10. I agree with you that perhaps Abraham could have delegated this task to someone else although it is not easy to imagine what could have been keeping Abraham so busy that he was not able to do this job himself.

What does busy have to do with it? Abraham doesn't delegate God's work. God does. You're second guessing God.

Why didn't Melchizedek come to give the Melchizedek priesthood? Because it wasn't his role as assigned by God. What about the Aaron priesthood. It wasn't Aaron who came to give it? Why not?

[zil]

I always thought it was the last person to hold the keys who came to restore the keys.  But I never tried to figure out if that was a realistic thought...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

the Silia Empire...

with introduction of silica,

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 4:38 AM, askandanswer said:

12  After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
 

I would have thought it would be Abraham who held and gives the keys for the gospel of Abraham rather than Elias. Would anyone care to speculate why it was Elias and not Abraham who gave these keys to Joseph Smith?

I believe that keys are passed from one individual to another.  Thus, it would make sense that the last person to hold the keys, would be designated as the one to pass those keys to the next recipient – regardless of the length of time that had passed since the last person holding the keys had them.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

7 hours ago, zil said:

I always thought it was the last person to hold the keys who came to restore the keys.  But I never tried to figure out if that was a realistic thought...

 

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I believe that keys are passed from one individual to another.  Thus, it would make sense that the last person to hold the keys, would be designated as the one to pass those keys to the next recipient – regardless of the length of time that had passed since the last person holding the keys had them.

 

The Traveler

One challenge with this view is that Elisha seems pretty universally recognized as having assumed Elijah's "mantle" in every way.  That being the case, Elisha rather than Elijah would have been the more logical latter-day restorer.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

What I noticed: (speculation, mind you).

1. There were three keys passed.
2. At least two of the three keys happened to coincide with the previous three missions of the church.
3. Two are known to be related to gathering of Israel (missionary work) and temple work.
4. It would stand to reason that the third person (Bob) was related to perfecting the saints.
5. The two that were known were translated beings.
6. It would stand to reason that the third person was also a translated being.
7. What translated being was there around the dispensation of Abraham who was known for his extreme righteousness and perfecting of an entire people?

 

 -- Melchizedek.  Anyone else?

One reason I can think of for this line of reasoning to fall apart is that Melchizedek is such an honored name that it seems unlikely for him to get a title (Elias) instead of being named in person.

Or it could simply be that this third man was another very righteous man (who happened to actually be named ELIAS) who converted many and led many to perfection who was eventually translated, but just never got a line in the Old Testament because his story was not part of the narrative the Lord wanted for this dispensation.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Guest

[Edspringer]

On 2017-6-20 at 7:38 AM, askandanswer said:

12  After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
 

I would have thought it would be Abraham who held and gives the keys for the gospel of Abraham rather than Elias. Would anyone care to speculate why it was Elias and not Abraham who gave these keys to Joseph Smith?

Elias, here, was Noah

http://emp.byui.edu/MarrottR/301Folder/4-11MissingJFeSEliasNoah.htm

Edited June 21, 2017 by Edspringer
add source

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

Elias, here, was Noah

http://emp.byui.edu/MarrottR/301Folder/4-11MissingJFeSEliasNoah.htm

I believe JAG already mentioned that.  But we're not interested in facts.  We're just speculating. 

[Edspringer]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I believe JAG already mentioned that.  But we're not interested in facts.  We're just speculating. 

Oh, sorry!!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

What I noticed: (speculation, mind you).

1. There were three keys passed.
2. At least two of the three keys happened to coincide with the previous three missions of the church.
3. Two are known to be related to gathering of Israel (missionary work) and temple work.
4. It would stand to reason that the third person (Bob) was related to perfecting the saints.
5. The two that were known were translated beings.
6. It would stand to reason that the third person was also a translated being.
7. What translated being was there around the dispensation of Abraham who was known for his extreme righteousness and perfecting of an entire people?

 

 -- Melchizedek.  Anyone else?

One reason I can think of for this line of reasoning to fall apart is that Melchizedek is such an honored name that it seems unlikely for him to get a title (Elias) instead of being named in person.

Or it could simply be that this third man was another very righteous man (who happened to actually be named ELIAS) who converted many and led many to perfection who was eventually translated, but just never got a line in the Old Testament because his story was not part of the narrative the Lord wanted for this dispensation.

I was going to mention this earlier: one of the three angles who visited Abraham (not Melchizedek). May well have been Enoch: the blessing in Moses 7:20, 49 and 53 is really what has been passed down to us as the “Abrahamic covenant.”

Edited June 21, 2017 by CV75

[askandanswer]

TFP's comments led me to consider the possibilities that maybe there is one approach for transferring keys of dispensations, and another approach to transferring functional keys, eg, keys of the Priesthood, keys of gathering etc. If the keys of dispensations are transferred, maybe this is only done by the head of the dispensation, but perhaps functional keys are transferred by the previous key holder? 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

TFP's comments led me to consider the possibilities that maybe there is one approach for transferring keys of dispensations, and another approach to transferring functional keys, eg, keys of the Priesthood, keys of gathering etc. If the keys of dispensations are transferred, maybe this is only done by the head of the dispensation, but perhaps functional keys are transferred by the previous key holder? 

The header to Section 110 refers to "their keys and dispensations" (for Moses and Elias) and "keys of his dispensation" (for Elijah). Peter, James and John had already given the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times (D&C 128:20), and all other heads of dispensations at some point also did the same (verse 21 -- Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and other divers angels, "declaring" and "giving"). It seems to me that the key of a dispensation is a functional key in and of itself. The keys of the kingdom, which Peter, James and John also restored, and which are also functional, are what get delegated through the priesthood order under the direction of the President of the Church, under Christ. I don't see the keys of the dispensation(s) being delegated (they are retained by the Prophet, Seer and Revelator), but the keys of the kingdom within that dispensation can be delegated by him according to the order of the priesthood. Both sets of keys of course are held by the First Presidency and Twelve according to the succession plan.

Edited June 22, 2017 by CV75

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 -- Melchizedek.  Anyone else?

Another thought on Melchizedek: his people of Salem were taken up as was Zion which preceded him (as did Enoch). That points to Enoch being the head of the "dispensation of translation" and those attendant keys. I word it that way because translation is a connective state between this world and heaven, where the exchange is perfected prior to the fulfillment of the aims of the dispensation of the fulness of times. The three angels (messengers) who visited Abraham may have been translated beings operating under, or with, Enoch as the President of that dispensation.

One question is whether the dispensation of Enoch, which entailed translation into the "taken up" kingdom of God and commerce with this world's kingdom of God on earth, was also the dispensation of Abraham, wherein through "[the priesthood] seed all generations after us should be blessed." Seeing that the translated Zion in heaven will connect to the New Jerusalem on earth, and undoubtedly assist in genealogy and temple work in the Millennium (if it is not being done up there now), it stands to reason that the future generations doing the work of the dispensation of the fulness of times are blessed by Enoch's dispensation.

[JohnsonJones]

19 hours ago, zil said:

I always thought it was the last person to hold the keys who came to restore the keys.  But I never tried to figure out if that was a realistic thought...

 

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that keys are passed from one individual to another.  Thus, it would make sense that the last person to hold the keys, would be designated as the one to pass those keys to the next recipient – regardless of the length of time that had passed since the last person holding the keys had them.

 

The Traveler

 

This is also of what I am of the opinion of.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is also of what I am of the opinion of.

Me too. Elias was the one who held the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham. If Elias is Enoch (for example), as a translated being he would have continued to have the keys of that dispensation after Abraham's death and have been the last one to hold them. If Elias is a successor of Abraham (Issac, Jacob or some unnamed person), it would have been whoever ended that dispensation prior to Moses (could that be Jethro--D&C 84:6?). And if Elias is Abraham, problem solved! -- after all, Abraham was the "forerunner" of a couple of things: the genealogy of Christ and the head of the only dispensation to have this particular order (the gospel of Abraham) prior to and preparatory to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Edited June 22, 2017 by CV75

[Just_A_Guy]

Then again, within LDS thought there's a strong (but not foolproof) current suggesting that Melchizedek is one and the same individual as Shem, son of Noah.  

Maybe I need to reverse-engineer the way I think about "dispensations".  I've traditionally viewed "dispensations" as periods where the Gospel was restored after a period where it was completely gone from the earth.  I've further been taught that there are seven major "dispensations":  those of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Joseph Smith.  (The Bible Dictionary hints at the possibility of there being nearly a dozen more.)

But, here's my first question:  if Moses got the priesthood from Jethro, and Abraham from Melchizedek/Shem, then why do we consider those two individuals as heads of "new" Gospel dispensations?  

Connecting the dots as we've done, it seems D&C 110 may be suggesting that it is actually Elias/Noah who stands at the head of the "dispensation of Abraham".  And, that notion of all future inhabitants of the earth being blessed through one individual ancestor certainly fits with both of them.  But then, why do we colloquially speak of the dispensations of Noah and Abraham as though they were two different things?

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Joseph Smith.  (The Bible Dictionary hints at the possibility of there being nearly a dozen more.)

Enoch is usually not counted among the "major" dispensations.  I believe he's excluded because technically he was still under the same covenant as Adam (Patriarchal Order).  Noah, likewise.  The great apostasy was considered a negative dispensation.  Thus we have six dispensations.  The 7th will be the Millennium.  (that's how I understood it).

39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But, here's my first question:  if Moses got the priesthood from Jethro, and Abraham from Melchizedek/Shem, then why do we consider those two individuals as heads of "new" Gospel dispensations?  

Prior to the restoration, I believe everyone received their priesthood authority from others on earth (except Adam).  But the changing of keys and covenants is what determines a dispensation.  Abraham was the first with whom the Lord made the...wait for it... Abrahamic Covenant.  Hence the dispensation was named after him.  But in that generation, he gave his tithes to Melchizedek who apparently was given the keys of the Kingdom at that time.

Moses was given the covenant of the...wait for it... Law of Moses.  Hence it was the dispensation of Moses.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Guest

[JohnsonJones]

Dispensation can be several things.  One big item with Dispensations in one sense is that there could be a Big D (Dispensation) and a little d (dispensation).  With the Big D, there are seven Dispensations, each with a Dispensation Head.  Each corresponds to one day, or one millennia...

Now if I can recall it off the top of my head, those Dispensations with their heads would be 1st Mil - Adam.  2nd Mil - Noah. 3rd Mil - Abraham.  4th Mil. - Moses.  5th Mil - The Savior  6th Mil. - Joseph Smith  7th Mil. - the Return of the Lord.

Now, not everyone agrees with this, but this used to be a common teaching...long ago.  Memory evades me, but I think at times Abraham may have been left out, and instead was replaced by Enoch or I may be confusing those two with the Seals that are opened each Millenium.  (edit: Ah, it appears Carborendum touched upon this already, so it appears Enoch is many times counted under Adam's, which makes sense, as well as Enoch's church did not remain on Earth nor did Enoch...sooooo....).

During each of these, they are creating the church anew, or it is when the church is normally gone from most of civilization, and they are there to restore that church and the authority that goes with it to create the church.  Further, each of these Dispensations and Dispensation heads had a special authority to establish something new.  For Adam it would be the race of men.  For Noah, it is to establish the race of men anew, as well as the promises of the Lord (as seen via the Rainbow).  For Abraham it was the promises of prosperity, family, and priesthood again.  For Moses we have the Mosaic law and where we get a majority of the Law we now know.  Through the Savior we received the fulfillment of the Law of Moses and the atonement as well as many other things.  Joseph Smith is the fullness of times and all those keys are restored through him.  When the Millenium comes, it is once again the restoration of all the keys, as well as the fulfillment of the gospel on earth to all men, believed by all men with the Savior reigning.

Now, there is another view that parallels the above very closely, and says the basic same idea, but each is not paralleled to a millennia, but to what is known as the Seven GREAT Dispensations.  It is STILL, however, the Seven Great Dispensations (big D).  In this, the Millenium is not counted as one of those dispensations typically.  In this, there are the seven great Dispensation heads...as I have discussed above, but all of them are included...hence...Adam, Enoch (whose dispensation is no more on Earth, but in heaven), Noah, Abraham, Moses, The Savior and his Apostles, and finally Joseph Smith.

In this, Joseph Smith has the fullness of the dispensation, but Adam is the great Dispensation head, who holds the keys to ALL Dispensations.  I believe it is also that Adam will hand over all these keys to the Savior when he comes again to reign in the Millenium, but I'm not completely clear on this.  Each head of the Dispensation has a special position as they hold the keys, or all the keys specifically for that dispensation, whereas individual leaders and prophets only hold the keys to the church for their time period...if that makes sense.

These then would be the Big D, or the Great Dispensations, of which there are seven, each with it's Dispensation head.

There is also the small d, or dispensations which seems to be the common interpretations now from what I read on LDS.com and from what I've seen at this thread.  These are those who also started or restored the respective churches at the time.  A prime example would be Alma, who established the church among the Nephites (though we know the Nephites already had this gospel...ala...King Benjamin), it was via Alma who we can presume established it in a more organized method with teachers and priests, though at the time it was Mosiah who was the actual seer if I recall right.  Another among the Nephites would be Lehi and Nephi, who established the church among their desendants.  Another Book of Mormon dispensation head would be the Brother of Jared who established the church among the Jaredites. etc....etc...etc...

 Paul, interestingly enough also claimed to be head of a dispensation if I recall right...though memory may be failing on that.

In this, basically, we see as the gospel dictionary states it...

Quote

When this occurs, the gospel is revealed anew so that people of that dispensation do not have to depend basically on past dispensations for knowledge of the plan of salvation.

So, it's hard to say exactly in some ways.  The Dispensation heads used to be taught (as I said, a loooong time ago, apparently that has changed in more recent years) in regards to the milleniums they were part of and such, and they made it pretty clear at times who and what they were (though I haven't really gone over this for a while, I think Skousen may touch on some of the heads and their respective milleniums in his thousand year series).  I believe McKonkie also touches on this in his Mormon Doctrine, if you can get your hands on it.

Edited June 22, 2017 by JohnsonJones
Noticed Carborendum's post

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

In this, Joseph Smith has the fullness of the dispensation, but Adam is the great Dispensation head, who holds the keys to ALL Dispensations.  I believe it is also that Adam will hand over all these keys to the Savior when he comes again to reign in the Millenium, but I'm not completely clear on this.  Each head of the Dispensation has a special position as they hold the keys, or all the keys specifically for that dispensation, whereas individual leaders and prophets only hold the keys to the church for their time period...if that makes sense.

I seem to recall being told that all will give the keys to Adam, except for Joseph.  Then Adam will give the remaining keys to Joseph.  Then Joseph will return them to the Savior.

The reasoning for this was that the changing of the guard from the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times to the Millennium is to be overseen by Joseph.  So, he must be the one to return the keys to the Savior.

But thinking about this, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.  The Savior already holds all keys.  He lends them to mortals to operate His Kingdom on Earth.  So, what is this "returning the keys to the Savior"?