Death and the West

[Vort]

In the ancient world, maps were generally oriented in whatever way was convenient for the area being mapped. But when they were oriented by direction, it was typically with east at the top. Today's convention of north being at the top of the map was adopted only when the picture of the earth as a sphere spinning around a north-south axis was adopted and well-accepted. Before that, east was "up". The very word "orient" means "eastern", so when we "orient" ourselves, that literally means that we're trying to figure out which way is east.

This is because the sun is born every morning in the east, and dies every evening in the west. East is the direction of the giving of life, and west is the direction of death.

Remember in Lord of the Rings, how the Elves were all going to the Western Lands? Why did Tolkien make it so the Elves were going west? Because that's the direction of death, and the Elves were waning and leaving things to mortal men, essentially "dying" from Middle Earth. Why do the Japanese historically value so much their identification as inhabitants of the "land of the rising sun", as is memorialized on their flag? Because at a deep, instinctual gut level, it makes them the people of life.

This imagery is actually common in scripture, so common in fact that we miss it because those who wrote the scripture didn't think to point out what they thought was dead obvious. God created the Earth, then placed Adam and Eve in a garden that he had planted eastward in Eden. So Eden was in the east -- the direction of life. When Adam and Eve were then thrust out of the garden of Eden, God placed cherubim and a flaming sword at the east of the garden of Eden. In other words, the garden of Eden -- and thus the location of the tree of life -- was westward of where Adam and Eve were thrust out. They could return to the tree of life, and thus to God, only by moving westward -- in other words, by dying.

If you face eastward, north is to your left, and south is to your right. The left hand is traditionally the hand of cursing or wickedness. We remember Isaiah 14:13 (cf 2 Nephi 24:13), where the king of Babylon is accused: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Traditionally, the false gods of the pagans were assigned to the north, on the left (cursed) hand of those facing eastward into the True Light. (This might also have bearing on Jeremiah's account in Jeremiah 1: "And the word of the Lord came unto me the second time, saying, What seest thou? And I said, I see a seething pot; and the face thereof is toward the north. Then the Lord said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land. For, lo, I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, saith the Lord; and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah.")

These traditions are not limited to Hebrews and Europeans. Indeed, the example of Japan illustrates how universal the theme of light and life from the east are. It appears to be a constant in all or at least most human societies, either from a common ancient origin or separately developed because, you know, the sun rises in the east.

Now consider the Muslim world's view of us. They see the filth America and other "western democracies" export. They see the godlessness, the corruption, the celebration of excess and outright evil. In everything from unashamed immodesty and sexual perversion to licentious dress and the shame of women with uncovered hair, it is moral decadence. And these same countries -- these same people, who are historically Christians, an enemy to Islam -- support the other ancient enemy, Israel, to whom they have given new life. They bomb the Muslim people. They kill their brave sons and ravish their daughters. They seek to exterminate the true religion of God's last and greatest Prophet, Mohammed -- praise be unto him! -- and replace those teachings with their corrupt idols! And it's all from the West. Death comes from the West. How appropriate, in their view, is the term "western democracies"!

Very interesting how these things work. I'm an American, and my sympathies lie mostly with my own country and my own people. But it doesn't take all that much empathy and insight to see how -- and why -- others might view us as evil enemies intent on their ruin and the destruction of anything decent.

Funny how all these symbols and ancient ideas can work together to create a powerful viewpoint that is not easily overcome.

[Just_A_Guy]

Lots of wisdom in what you write.  I want to be fair-minded about Islam; but frankly--I can't help but notice how every nation-state that they have dominated since the Congress of Vienna has been a cultural and economic backwater that holds post-Enlightenment views of individual rights and liberties in utter contempt.  Twentieth-century Turkey seems to have been the one exception, and even they only made it about fifty years before they let Erdogan start re-converting them into an Islamist Hades-hole.

My sense is that their outrage is less altruistic concern about the fact that *someone* is being bombed and ravished and subjected to ideological imperialism; and more sour grapes about the fact that westerners are frankly so much more competent at wielding this sort of power than the Islamic states have historically been.  They grapple with a disconnect between the global dominion they think is rightfully theirs; and the marginal roles they actually play in any marginally successful nation-state.  

Do we, as a nation, deserve to be scourged?  Sure.  But it is typically by the guilty, not the innocent, that the guilty are punished.  If there's a benevolent form of Islam that can be practiced in the US in a way that's compatible with the Constitution--that's wonderful.  But speaking globally, I fear that "moderate Islam" is very much a rump party and not part of mainstream Islam in any sense that is meaningful to us as westerners.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Mike]

This Tolkien reader understood Elves to be more or less immune to death in the sense that men died (as Arwen chose to become mortal as a consequence of marrying Aragorn). Thus, I did not perceive the Elves to be going into the West to die even in the sense of dying from Middle Earth--I perceived them going to their destiny which was much loftier than anything Middle Earth and the impending dominion of men could impose. Moreover, throughout the Trilogy the East symbolized the source of death and destruction and violence (Sauron and Mordor) rather than life, beauty and peace. So, it's all very relative to me. 

I'm aware of and enjoy many maps throughout history where the cartographers chose to place the South Pole at the top. I have friends in South America who (strangely to me) have never utilized a compass nor taken time to care which direction was which.

I suspect that the land of the rising sun was a notion that had more to do at first with the geography of an island relative to a continent and later with a stronger political leader wanting top billing over a weaker one on the mainland. I suspect that majorities almost always get to decide whether God favors this or that, right hand over left hand, etc. I believe that more than a mere two thousand years ago average people, at least those who couldn't sleep at night and took advantage of the time to think, easily concluded that the world was round and that cardinal directions were an arbitrary convention developed for ease of communicating--and of course by human nature combined with human superstition.  I'm prone to accept that many our notions are much more the result of views imposed upon us and perpetuated by groups and individuals throughout history who happen to wield stronger political or martial forces--and of course by what we choose to believe when it matches our predispositions, which is perhaps what I myself am doing as a I write. 

Anyway, I agree with you @Vort about much of what you wrote such as: 

Quote

Very interesting how these things work. I'm an American, and my sympathies lie mostly with my own country and my own people. But it doesn't take all that much empathy and insight to see how -- and why -- others might view us as evil enemies intent on their ruin and the destruction of anything decent.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

A wonderful explanation of California and it's equivalence to the kingdom of the devil.

[Vort]

On 7/7/2017 at 10:01 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

My sense is that their outrage is less altruistic concern about the fact that *someone* is being bombed and ravished and subjected to ideological imperialism; and more sour grapes about the fact that westerners are frankly so much more competent at wielding this sort of power than the Islamic states have historically been.  They grapple with a disconnect between the global dominion they think is rightfully theirs; and the marginal roles they actually play in any marginally successful nation-state.

On a national level, I completely agree with you. Muslim leaders such as bin Laden were and are less concerned about the decadence of America than with the fact that their attempts at dominating their own area of the world, much less the entire globe, are stymied by their own corruption and ineptitude.

But on the individual level of the (more or less) faithful Muslim in a Middle Eastern country who knows pretty much only what his media (i.e. his government) has told him, I think it's not an unrealistic picture.

[Vort]

On 7/8/2017 at 6:33 AM, Mike said:

I perceived them going to their destiny which was much loftier than anything Middle Earth and the impending dominion of men could impose.

At the risk of derailing this topic with a completely irrelevant lit crit of Tolkien, I believe Tolkien's own writings in his Silmarillion indicate that the Elves were waning and were ceding Middle Earth to men, not to go on to some greater destiny, but because their part in the play was (for the moment, at least) finished.

On 7/8/2017 at 6:33 AM, Mike said:

I'm aware of and enjoy many maps throughout history where the cartographers chose to place the South Pole at the top. I have friends in South America who (strangely to me) have never utilized a compass nor taken time to care which direction was which.

Pre- or post-Middle Ages? Ancient maps were not standardized as far as which cardinal direction was at the top, but it seems to me that the tendency was to put East at the top, unless there were some other obvious landmark or feature that determined the map's orientation.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Vort

[Guest]

On 7/7/2017 at 11:05 PM, Vort said:

In the ancient world, maps were generally oriented in whatever way was convenient for the area being mapped. But when they were oriented by direction, it was typically with east at the top. Today's convention of north being at the top of the map was adopted only when the picture of the earth as a sphere spinning around a north-south axis was adopted and well-accepted. Before that, east was "up". The very word "orient" means "eastern", so when we "orient" ourselves, that literally means that we're trying to figure out which way is east.

So, my HR guy told me I needed to go to orientation.  I told him I was already oriental.  Chuck-chuck-chuck.

On 7/7/2017 at 11:05 PM, Vort said:

If you face eastward, north is to your left, and south is to your right. The left hand is traditionally the hand of cursing or wickedness. 

Now consider the Muslim world's view of us. They see the filth America and other "western democracies" export. They see the godlessness, the corruption, the celebration of excess and outright evil. In everything from unashamed immodesty and sexual perversion to licentious dress and the shame of women with uncovered hair, it is moral decadence.

Well, realizing I just barely got oriented to this metaphor, I think I see some inconsistency.  Wouldn't the land of the left (north) be cursed because of corruption?  How does the corruption then get transferred to the west?

[Guest]

On 7/8/2017 at 8:33 AM, Mike said:

This Tolkien reader understood Elves to be more or less immune to death in the sense that men died (as Arwen chose to become mortal as a consequence of marrying Aragorn).

It's been a while since I read it.  But I don't recall Arwen becoming mortal.  Instead, she ended up wandering in lonely misery for all eternity after the death of Aragorn.

On 7/8/2017 at 8:33 AM, Mike said:

Thus, I did not perceive the Elves to be going into the West to die even in the sense of dying from Middle Earth--I perceived them going to their destiny which was much loftier than anything Middle Earth and the impending dominion of men could impose.

This was correct. I belive  @Vort did err bringing this into the metaphor.  The elves going to the west was simply Tolkien using the oft used literary device of "sailing into the sunset" scene (originated by Dumas in Count of Monte Cristo).  This was not a symbol of death, but the brightness of the future.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Guest

[wenglund]

Fascinating and Instructive. Loved it.

It may be of interest to note that the tombstones for many Christians graves (and other faiths) often face East.

The Angel Moroni atop most LDS temples face East. (see HERE)

The significance of the eastern door of the temple in Ezekiel's vision is worthy of note--particularly Ezek 43 and 46/.(see also 10:9)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-,  

 

[wenglund]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This was correct. I belive  @Vort did err bringing this into the metaphor.  The elves going to the west was simply Tolkien using the oft used literary device of "sailing into the sunset" scene (originated by Dumas in Count of Monte Cristo).  This was not a symbol of death, but the brightness of the future.

Could the brightness of the future include resurrection?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Could the brightness of the future include resurrection?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

We're talking about Tolkien and Dumas in fiction.  I don't think resurrection was part of those stories.  You want to expand that thought to resurrection?  Have a field day.

[Fether]

Where does symbolism for the "eastern wind" fall in?

Gen 41:6

Exodus 14:21 (still represents life)

job 15:2

job 27:21

Hosea 12:1

Hosea 13:15

Jonah 4:8

Habakkuk 1:9

and many more

The east wind tends to represent destruction. Is there any connection between destruction and Life? 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Fether

[Jamie123]

On 7/8/2017 at 5:05 AM, Vort said:

Remember in Lord of the Rings, how the Elves were all going to the Western Lands? Why did Tolkien make it so the Elves were going west? Because that's the direction of death, and the Elves were waning and leaving things to mortal men, essentially "dying" from Middle Earth. Why do the Japanese historically value so much their identification as inhabitants of the "land of the rising sun", as is memorialized on their flag? Because at a deep, instinctual gut level, it makes them the people of life.

But remember the "Utmost West" was where the Valar (or Gods) were based. (Not at the beginning I grant you, but since Melkor had destroyed their original home of Almaren before the Elves even awoke). And the Elves had been heading west even during their ascendancy, since the Valar summoned them from Cuivienen.

(Yes I know - I'm a sad Tolkien geek.)

[wenglund]

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We're talking about Tolkien and Dumas in fiction.  I don't think resurrection was part of those stories.  You want to expand that thought to resurrection?  Have a field day.

I don't know about Dumas, but with Tolkien didn't Gandolf go from grey to white after falling into the depths of the earth in a death struggle with the Barog (death?)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I don't know about Dumas, but with Tolkien didn't Gandolf go from grey to white after falling into the depths of the earth in a death struggle with the Barog (death?)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

One more time:  CONTEXT.  

Yes, Gandalf came back 'from death'.  So did Aragorn. 

The scene we were discussing was about the end of those books where they sailed off into the sunset.  I don't see anything about resurrection in those scenes.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Guest

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, wenglund said:

I don't know about Dumas, but with Tolkien didn't Gandolf go from grey to white after falling into the depths of the earth in a death struggle with the Barog (death?)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Gandalf. Castle Gandolfo is where the pope used to live.

Another instance of resurrection is with the Elves, who though they were immortal could be killed. Tolkien tinkered with the exact details, but it seems that for Elves death was a kind of short-cut for their souls to reach the West (where most of them were headed anyway), where they would be given new physical bodies and could in theory at least return to Middle-earth. I'm not sure if Tolkien ever stated this explicitly but it's often claimed that the Glorfindel who died in the fall of Gondolin (in The Silmarillion) was the same Glorfindel who helped Frodo escape from the Black Riders (in Peter Jackson's version he was replaced with Arwen, and in Ralph Bakshi's with Legolas).

The souls of mortal Men (and presumably Hobbits) also traveled to the West, but unlike the Elves they traveled on and left Arda altogether, to be with Iluvatar (God).

Edited July 13, 2017 by Jamie123
Sophomoric error: "Middle-earth" not "Middle Earth" (almost as bad as Gandolf).

[wenglund]

On 7/12/2017 at 11:07 AM, Carborendum said:

One more time:  CONTEXT.  

Yes, Gandalf came back 'from death'.  So did Aragorn. 

The scene we were discussing was about the end of those books where they sailed off into the sunset.  I don't see anything about resurrection in those scenes.

Admittedly, the resurrection symbolism of the scene in question may be too nuanced for people deep in left-brain (or "West" brain) mode.

Certainly, it isn't worth arguing over. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[anatess2]

On 7/8/2017 at 10:57 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

A wonderful explanation of California and it's equivalence to the kingdom of the devil.

Don't forget Seattle.