Premortal Life?

[person0]

36 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

Allow me to ask, how does this address the 2 points I made?

In more detail then.

Unless I am mistaken about the Mormon doctrine - we were all living in the presence, love and glory of the Father and at some point Father God (popularly stated) said - You guys need redemption. And - I am going to sent you to Earth, erase your memory, you live and then you die.

Why would a loving God do that?

Seems to me the logical answer is that we sinned (notable) in His presence.

And we know from Scripture that the penalty of sin is death.

It's only then pre-existence is making sense to me.

If pre-existence is true is of course another matter :-)

That's not quite how it works.  We did not yet need redemption when we lived in God's presence.  It's more along the lines of God saying - You guys need progression, you need a body.  I am going to send you to earth so you can get a body and learn to be more like me. -  God did it because he wanted us to have the opportunity to learn and grow.

Also, some did sin in His presence.  Lucifer and those who followed after him were cast out, they never came to earth.  They died spiritually, forever, and can never return to God's presence.

Side Note:  Technically 'pre-existence' is incorrect terminology; the correct term is pre-mortal existence.

[Jane_Doe]

47 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

Allow me to ask, how does this address the 2 points I made?

In more detail then.

Unless I am mistaken about the Mormon doctrine - we were all living in the presence, love and glory of the Father and at some point Father God (popularly stated) said - You guys need redemption. And - I am going to sent you to Earth, erase your memory, you live and then you die.

You are mistaken.  Helping clarify:

We lived in Heavenly Father's presence, has spirits.  He, in His great love, presented a plan in which we could become more like Him: learning more and gaining a glorified physical body (think like Christ's now resurrected perfect body).  The Father's plan involved creating Earth, where we could be born in physical bodies and gain experience.  During this earthly life, each of us would eventually choose to sin and need redemption.  God knew this.  He knew A&E would Fall, He knew each of us would likewise choose sin, and we would all need a redeemer.  Hence, the original plan also involved Jesus Christ as our savior, paving the way for our saving from physical and spiritual death.   He gave us the way to grow, to be saved, and to return to Him.  His love and wisdom is immense.

47 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

Why would a loving God do that?

Why offer us each the chance to grow and learn?  Because He's a loving parent!

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

47 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

Unless I am mistaken about the Mormon doctrine - we were all living in the presence, love and glory of the Father and at some point Father God (popularly stated) said - You guys need redemption. And - I am going to sent you to Earth, erase your memory, you live and then you die.

You are mistaken about Mormon doctrine.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

Allow me to ask, how does this address the 2 points I made?

In more detail then.

Unless I am mistaken about the Mormon doctrine - we were all living in the presence, love and glory of the Father and at some point Father God (popularly stated) said - You guys need redemption. And - I am going to sent you to Earth, erase your memory, you live and then you die.

Why would a loving God do that?

Seems to me the logical answer is that we sinned (notable) in His presence.

And we know from Scripture that the penalty of sin is death.

It's only then pre-existence is making sense to me.

If pre-existence is true is of course another matter :-)

One drastic difference between LDS Theology and other Christian sects is the belief that we are more than just little claymation creations of God that he sent here to Earth. We are literally his children in every aspect with the potential to become like him. He hasn't just sent us here to worship him and to love him but to learn, grow, progress, and to one day become like him (after this life of course). This life is not just a board game that he made up and we have to follow the rules to make it to the end. This is an existence that has existed for all eternity. You and I are eternal in nature.

I too have asked the question "why did he erase our memory?" I still don't know the answer, but I imagine if I searched enough, one with greater knowledge can teach me or direct me in the right direction. or perhaps it won't be fully revealed till we pass on. That is the stance I take. To question the entirety of a theology based on a lack of knowledge on my part seems very unwise and prideful. It is almost like assuming you know more about it than anyone else (which is never true for anyone). When I look at other Protestant religions and the beliefs they have that contradict the LDS beliefs, I don't normally go out of my way to try to prove them wrong because I know that there are probably MANY scholars in Protestant faiths that have considered whatever argument I am going to propose. So instead of having a theological debate, do what we ask and what God asks. Study it out for yourself and ask him if it be true  No matter how smart you think you are (you as in anyone reading this), there are plenty of scholars wiser than you and I who have thought of many questions and have had many doubts, and through years of studying and by faith, have come to realize that, they too, will never be able to cover every theological/philosophical base with their own conception or knowledge. There will always be something that you don't know and there will always be someone out there that knows more and has thought of the answer to things you find impossible to answer (and sometimes the only other person out there who has thought of the answer to your question is God).

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:9 (KJV)

 

We simply are not meant to understand everything in life.

BUT DONT LIKE THAT STOP YOU FROM ASKING QUESTIONS!  God does want us to learn. Just don't go into a discussion/question with the mindset of "If I can't find an answer, it must be false." Go in with an attitude to learn and if needed, accept that there may not be a clear answer here. (I personally have had to humble myself and accept that there is no answer quite a few times on this very forum).

There are things that Protestants believe that I find major holes in that LDS doctrine answer quite nicely. I don't condemn them for living w/ blind faith (in fact I often look up to those who can follow the spirit of faith and not have all the answers). After all, don't we all live of blind faith to some extent?

Ask questions for the intention to learn and not w/ the intention to prove/disprove.

And ultimately, take the advice found in James 1:5-6 (KJV) "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

Edited July 10, 2017 by Fether

[zil]

52 minutes ago, Fether said:

I too have asked the question "why did he erase our memory?" I still don't know the answer, but I imagine if I searched enough, one with greater knowledge can teach me or direct me in the right direction.

Approaching Zion, Hugh Nibley, Chapter 3 "Zeal without Knowledge", immediately after covering the fact that mortal man can only think about one thing at a time (italics mine):

Quote

Let us remember that quite peculiar to the genius of Mormonism is the doctrine of a God who could preoccupy himself with countless numbers of things: “The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine” (Moses 1:37).

Plainly, we are dealing with two orders of minds. “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are . . . my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

But why this crippling limitation on our thoughts if we are God’s children? It is precisely this limitation that is the essence of our mortal existence. If every choice I make expresses a preference, if the world I build up is the world I really love and want, then with every choice I am judging myself, proclaiming all the day long to God, angels, and my fellowmen where my real values lie, where my treasure is, the things to which I give supreme importance. Hence, in this life every moment provides a perfect and foolproof test of your real character, making this life a time of testing and probation.

To me, the reason we do not remember pre-mortality is the same - it would hinder our ability to fully exercise agency.  This is also why I believe we will not remember pre-mortality before the resurrection - if we did, there would be no need to preach the gospel in the post-mortal spirit world - the memory of life with God would be overwhelming.

Edited July 10, 2017 by zil

[Fether]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Approaching Zion, Hugh Nibley, Chapter 3 "Zeal without Knowledge", immediately after covering the fact that mortal man can only think about one thing at a time (italics mine):

To me, the reason we do not remember pre-mortality is the same - it would hinder our ability to fully exercise agency.  This is also why I believe we will not remember pre-mortality before the resurrection - if we did, there would be no need to preach the gospel in the post-mortal spirit world - the memory of life with God would be overwhelming.

If I understand correctly, Hugh Nibley teaches that the reason we don't remember is that instead of being monitored by a boss to do what he wants me to do, I am creating a life that I want to live. I'm taught the celestial law, and if I choose that I want to live that kind of life, then I can receive celestial glory.

Wow thanks! You know I had thoughts that this might have been one of the reasons. I remember when I was a young missionary trying to impress my peers but also struggling to lose myself in the work. When I fully knew my leaders were watching me and that my immediate actions were being judged, I would act completely different than when I was alone with my companion. It wasn't till my character as a missionary changed that I began to find joy and was given greater responsibility.

[Sunday21]

@Fether Excellent summary!

[Mike]

On 7/9/2017 at 2:48 AM, ProDeo said:

I an new (first post) and a Protestant, well mainly, just a Christian would fit better. I am interested in the Mormon doctrine of Premortal Life. ...

I won't presume to add my voice on this topic where other forum members are doing just fine addressing your interest from an instructional angle. But I personally would like to know about you, and about what you think *in terms of your feelings* apart from any arguments from authority so to speak. Specifically I'm interested in knowing what feelings come into your heart, or what thoughts come into your mind regarding the concept of a pre-mortal existence? In other words (and without wanting to put words in your mouth) is the concept alien to you? Does it strike you personally as preposterous, or does it strike you as reasonable? What personal (or philosophical) notions of your very own with regard to the topic do you have? I'm not interested in debating you--just saying so as to avoid making you uncomfortable.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Mike

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

If I understand correctly, Hugh Nibley teaches that the reason we don't remember is that instead of being monitored by a boss to do what he wants me to do, I am creating a life that I want to live. I'm taught the celestial law, and if I choose that I want to live that kind of life, then I can receive celestial glory.

Wow thanks! You know I had thoughts that this might have been one of the reasons. I remember when I was a young missionary trying to impress my peers but also struggling to lose myself in the work. When I fully knew my leaders were watching me and that my immediate actions were being judged, I would act completely different than when I was alone with my companion. It wasn't till my character as a missionary changed that I began to find joy and was given greater responsibility.

The way I saw it was that we had learned many things in the pre-mortal life.  But just as here on earth, there were many things we had not fully internalized.

Those things we had fully internalized, we will tend to retain throughout this experience regardless of our memories.  Then there are those things we partially internalized and those which we only believed because we remembered Father telling us it was so.

On earth, we can learn from practical experience in this sandbox we call mortality that some things really are right or wrong.  We can either learn it and internalize it or disbelieve it.

[ProDeo]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I won't presume to add my voice on this topic where other forum members are doing just fine addressing your interest from an instructional angle. But I personally would like to know about you, and about what you think *in terms of your feelings* apart from any arguments from authority so to speak. Specifically I'm interested in knowing what feelings come into your heart, or what thoughts come into your mind regarding the concept of a pre-mortal existence? In other words (and without wanting to put words in your mouth) is the concept alien to you? Does it strike you personally as preposterous, or does it strike you as reasonable? What personal (or philosophical) notions of your very own with regard to the topic do you have? I'm not interested in debating you--just saying so as to avoid making you uncomfortable.

 

Fair enough.

It's (indeed) maybe a good idea to tell some of my background and why I took the courage (as a mainstream Christian) to post what I have posted in a LDS forum  so here goes...

Several years ago I came to the conclusion that there are -- how does one call that respectfully? -- difficulties (there I said it) with some of the mainstream Christian teachings. I also learned about Origen and his theory of pre-existence, or as you used to call it, pre-mortal life. After the logical (and natural) initial denial rejecting it as heresy it kept itching and the longer I thought about it the more sense it started to make, despite there (IMO) is no Biblical evidence for it which doesn't automatically mean it can't be true.

And I became aware of Mormonism and that pre-mortal life is a main pillar of your belief system. Interesting... But when I started to read about the contents of the doctrine it didn't feel right, several questions came up and after a long time of thinking I finally took the step and ask. And so I arrived here in the hope I will learn something.

One of those questions, why would I -- living in the presence of God -- want to go into a sinful body and displease the Lord? Because no matter what your beliefs are about Original Sin sooner or later we are all start to sin. I just can't believe a loving God would force the creatures He loves into such a position and then blame them for being sinners. I would rather choose to remain in His holy presence. But what I have read, that's not a  wise option, or?

[zil]

11 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

why would I -- living in the presence of God -- want to go into a sinful body and displease the Lord?

We believe that to receive a mortal body, and then receive resurrection (through the grace of Jesus Christ) are necessary steps to progress - to learn, grow, and become all we can be - as Matthew 5:48 says:

Quote

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

...we believe that going from spirit child, to mortal, to resurrected immortal is necessary to accomplish this command.

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

One of those questions, why would I -- living in the presence of God -- want to go into a sinful body and displease the Lord? Because no matter what your beliefs are about Original Sin sooner or later we are all start to sin. I just can't believe a loving God would force the creatures He loves into such a position and then blame them for being sinners. I would rather choose to remain in His holy presence. But what I have read, that's not a  wise option, or?

God did not force us; He presented a plan and we chose to obtain bodies. Not all of us sin (infants for example do not sin), so that was not a foregone conclusion. All of us die, and that is the really the relevant concern, or, "Why would God ask us to die?" John 12:24 gives us the answer: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." This has to do with the eternal truth that there must be an opposition in all things:

“For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.”

But there  is nothing wrong with accepting the teaching of pre-mortal life on faith alone, and certainly nothing wrong with understanding the Biblical references that do exist on the subject. And certainly nothing wrong with reading and understanding and praying about the the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon!

Edited July 10, 2017 by CV75

[Mike]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

Fair enough.

It's (indeed) maybe a good idea to tell some of my background and why I took the courage (as a mainstream Christian) to post what I have posted in a LDS forum  so here goes...

Several years ago I came to the conclusion that there are -- how does one call that respectfully? -- difficulties (there I said it) with some of the mainstream Christian teachings. I also learned about Origen and his theory of pre-existence, or as you used to call it, pre-mortal life. After the logical (and natural) initial denial rejecting it as heresy it kept itching and the longer I thought about it the more sense it started to make, despite there (IMO) is no Biblical evidence for it which doesn't automatically mean it can't be true.

And I became aware of Mormonism and that pre-mortal life is a main pillar of your belief system. Interesting... But when I started to read about the contents of the doctrine it didn't feel right, several questions came up and after a long time of thinking I finally took the step and ask. And so I arrived here in the hope I will learn something.

One of those questions, why would I -- living in the presence of God -- want to go into a sinful body and displease the Lord? Because no matter what your beliefs are about Original Sin sooner or later we are all start to sin. I just can't believe a loving God would force the creatures He loves into such a position and then blame them for being sinners. I would rather choose to remain in His holy presence. But what I have read, that's not a  wise option, or?

OK, so I'm understanding you to say that you rejected the theory of pre-existence as taught by Origen, but after pondering it you began to feel it made sense. However, as you've encountered claims in Mormonism so far it makes less sense to you after all. Do I take your meaning accurately? I'm mindful of the risk I might run by asking you questions because you might misconstrue them as efforts to lay a trap, but I guess you'll have to trust my intentions. For example, you ask (of yourself, I presume) why you would want to occupy a sinful body and displease God. And yet here you (and I) are in a sinful bodies, right? I think I'm having difficulty at the moment keeping pace with your thinking that sounds like it starts with [is there really a pre-existence(?)] and leads you to ask [why would we want to occupy sinful bodies]. In other words, I'm reading that you seek information about a claim that can't be proven; and you end up asking about the propriety of something else, the reality of which is (painfully) obvious and needs no proof. Can you see why I'm confused? In any event am I to understand that at the moment you don't believe and don't wish to believe in a pre-existence?

Edited July 10, 2017 by Mike

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

One of those questions, why would I -- living in the presence of God -- want to go into a sinful body and displease the Lord? 

To grow and become more like Him.  We love Him and desire to imitate His perfection. 

Also: having a physical body is not automatically sinful: for example Christ doing His mortal ministry.  What makes a person a sinner is when that person *chooses* to rebel against God.  Such rebellion is possible with and without a physical body.  For example, Lucifer's rebellion.

Also: the physical body we will eventually have are resurrected glorified bodies, like Christ currently has.  Not like the ones we currently have.  

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

Because no matter what your beliefs are about Original Sin sooner or later we are all start to sin. 

Yes, when a person *chooses* to rebel against the Lord.  It is always that person's choice, never God's.

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

I just can't believe a loving God would force the creatures He loves into such a position and then blame them for being sinners. 

There is no forcing at all here: we choose to accept God's plan to come to Earth, we each have chosen to rebel against God, and we will choose whether (or not) to accept the Savior.  The center pin here is 100% choice.  God gave us the choice then and continues to do so today.  

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

I would rather choose to remain in His holy presence. But what I have read, that's not a  wise option, or?

You think you would choose to not be like the Father?  To refuse His gift?  To refuse to grow in love, grace, and understanding?  

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[eddified]

God gave us a choice. Either we participate in the Plan of Salvation, or we don't. Those who do get a chance to return to live with Him again. Those who don't rebelled and will no longer get to be in His presence, for all eternity. They are Satan's angels. There was no third option, no way to choose to just stay with Him and not participate in the Plan of Salvation. 

I like to think it's kind of like your parents giving you a chore when you were a little child. Either you do it and stay on their good side, (and in the process learn and grow - i.e. learn how to work), or you choose to shirk your duties and suffer the consequences and get sent to your room. There really is no option for "well, I want to avoid doing the chore, and also stay on my parents' good side". What loving parent allows such a 3rd option? A loving parent would not allow such a 3rd option since it allows the child to go without the learning experience that the parent believes absolutely necessary for the child's growth. I imagine if I let my children choose the third option, with no consequences for not doing the things I wish them to do for their own benefit and growth, they wouldn't turn out very well at all. They wouldn't learn the value of hard work and making it in this world on their own.

So as you can see, this is my opinion on why God sent us here because he is a loving God. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, ProDeo said:

I would rather choose to remain in His holy presence. But what I have read, that's not a  wise option, or?

Thanks for the background.  It helps.

The choosing to remain in His presence was not really an option at all.  It is like saying, we can choose to remain children.  Well, there's this thing called "aging" (visualize Chris Farley) which kinda just happens.  Is it "force"?  No.  It just happens.  The only way to keep from aging is to die.

In the same way, we had progressed and grown in the Presence of the Father until it was time to grow up.  The only way out of it was to join Satan and "spiritually die" by rejecting the idea of growing up.

So, you can think of mortal life as "being sent away to college."  We need to grow up.  We're going to make many mistakes along the way.  But that is part of the growing process.  We can call home for advice.  But there are some things that simply cannot be "explained" or "taught."  They must be learned through experience.  That is what the mortal experience is for.

If you're asking for the logic behind it, there is a great deal of the background and context that helps understand it.  It isn't easy to relate that all in a single post.  But you are getting bits and pieces from various posts which I hope will help.

If you're asking for evidence in scripture that it is true, the first one Mormons will point to is:

Quote

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 1:5

Our interpretation of this is not some metaphorical meaning.  We believe the Father LITERALLY knew Jeremiah as his spirit child in the pre-mortal life.  Many people were "fore-ordained" to certain missions and callings in life.

While we don't believe in pre-destination, we do believe that we were given certain assignments or missions to perform in our mortal lives.  We'd call this being "fore-ordained" to such callings.

Quote

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Abraham 3:22-23

We have many books of scripture in our faith.  The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine & Covenants, The Pearl of Great price.  The Book of Abraham is found in The Pearl of Great Price.

[ProDeo]

17 hours ago, Mike said:

OK, so I'm understanding you to say that you rejected the theory of pre-existence as taught by Origen, but after pondering it you began to feel it made sense. However, as you've encountered claims in Mormonism so far it makes less sense to you after all. Do I take your meaning accurately? I'm mindful of the risk I might run by asking you questions because you might misconstrue them as efforts to lay a trap, but I guess you'll have to trust my intentions. For example, you ask (of yourself, I presume) why you would want to occupy a sinful body and displease God. And yet here you (and I) are in a sinful bodies, right? I think I'm having difficulty at the moment keeping pace with your thinking that sounds like it starts with [is there really a pre-existence(?)] and leads you to ask [why would we want to occupy sinful bodies]. In other words, I'm reading that you seek information about a claim that can't be proven; and you end up asking about the propriety of something else, the reality of which is (painfully) obvious and needs no proof. Can you see why I'm confused? In any event am I to understand that at the moment you don't believe and don't wish to believe in a pre-existence?

I think I can answer your question. Coming from a Protestant background changing opinion on such a fundamental, new and mind blowing subject (called heresy in my congregation) is not something one does overnight, it's a process.

I can't find convincing evidence in the Christian Bible but when I change opinion I want it to fit into and in harmony with the principles of the Christian Bible, not with external writings that IMO conflict the Christian Bible.

So yes, I see a conflict God wanting us into sinful bodies, then punish us for the sins that come with it. 2 quotes from LDS teachings:

Quote

If Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have lived forever in innocence, without children,

thereby frustrating God’s plan of salvation.

Quote

“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin.

It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not!

Both are in direct conflict with the Christian Bible.

Here is what I can believe -- if the subject is pre-mortal life--  is not in conflict, although an argument from silence, like your additional writings.

We know the first sin in was not committed by A&E but by the devil, the satanic rebellion. And he lured us innocent agencies into his lies, like A&E in the garden. As a result God created Earth as a (sort of) bootcamp to teach us (those who were disobedient) a lesson to face the consequences of disobedience, to experience both good and evil and learn, much alike what is written in your chapter 10, The Purpose of Earth Life. Jesus being the Saviour of the World.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS, it's impossible for me to answer each one you.

PS2, I can't find a preview button, only a submit button, do I need new glasses?

Edited July 11, 2017 by ProDeo

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

I can't find convincing evidence in the Christian Bible but when I change opinion I want it to fit into and in harmony with the principles of the Christian Bible, not with external writings that IMO conflict the Christian Bible.

So yes, I see a conflict God wanting us into sinful bodies, then punish us for the sins that come with it. 2 quotes from LDS teachings:

Both are in direct conflict with the Christian Bible.

Here is what I can believe -- if the subject is pre-mortal life--  is not in conflict, although an argument from silence, like your additional writings.

We know the first sin in was not committed by A&E but by the devil, the satanic rebellion. And he lured us innocent agencies into his lies, like A&E in the garden. As a result God created Earth as a (sort of) bootcamp to teach us (those who were disobedient) a lesson to face the consequences of disobedience, to experience both good and evil and learn, much alike what is written in your chapter 10, The Purpose of Earth Life. Jesus being the Saviour of the World.

Here is a reality of learning.  One cannot learn a new paradigm by requiring that it fit into an old one.

One cannot believe the the LDS faith is true based on the assumptions of protestantism.  All appeals to the Bible are going to be interpretations -- based on your assumptions that you've had all your life so much so that you don't even realize that they are simply assumptions (i.e. not facts).  You cannot say that LDS interpretations are wrong because protestant interpretations say otherwise.  We have different interpretations.  

But I believe you've already decided that your old interpretations must be correct and we need to prove LDS theology using Protestant assumptions.  That would be impossible.

Learn our assumptions and see if the logic would bring you to the same conclusions we have.  Once you see that it fits, then you've got to do some soul searching and a lot of prayer to discover if your old assumptions are correct or if these new ones are.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Guest

[Mike]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

I think I can answer your question. Coming from a Protestant background changing opinion on such a fundamental, new and mind blowing subject (called heresy in my congregation) is not something one does overnight, it's a process.

I can't find convincing evidence in the Christian Bible but when I change opinion I want it to fit into and in harmony with the principles of the Christian Bible, not with external writings that IMO conflict the Christian Bible.

So yes, I see a conflict God wanting us into sinful bodies, then punish us for the sins that come with it. 2 quotes from LDS teachings:

Both are in direct conflict with the Christian Bible.

Here is what I can believe -- if the subject is pre-mortal life--  is not in conflict, although an argument from silence, like your additional writings.

We know the first sin in was not committed by A&E but by the devil, the satanic rebellion. And he lured us innocent agencies into his lies, like A&E in the garden. As a result God created Earth as a (sort of) bootcamp to teach us (those who were disobedient) a lesson to face the consequences of disobedience, to experience both good and evil and learn, much alike what is written in your chapter 10, The Purpose of Earth Life. Jesus being the Saviour of the World.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS, it's impossible for me to answer each one you.

PS2, I can't find a preview button, only a submit button, do I need new glasses?

I certainly appreciate your position and background, and I appreciate the gravity of changing a fundamental opinion which is based on what you were taught previously (probably since very early childhood). Also, I can appreciate what you expressed above about your perception, i.e. "God wanting us into sinful bodies, then punish us for the sins that come with it." 

Quote

PS, it's impossible for me to answer each one you.

If this means that your one-on-one conversation with me is impossible to continue (taken as part of the larger group of thread participants vying for your attention) , I'll understand. I do want to express my gratitude to you for taking the time to share your personal feelings with me.

 

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

I think I can answer your question. Coming from a Protestant background changing opinion on such a fundamental, new and mind blowing subject (called heresy in my congregation) is not something one does overnight, it's a process.

That's 100% rational.

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

I can't find convincing evidence in the Christian Bible but when I change opinion I want it to fit into and in harmony with the principles of the Christian Bible, not with external writings that IMO conflict the Christian Bible.

Using just the Bible and no outside sources (such as other people's interpretations), do you have any reason to assume that one interpretation of a verse is more correct than the other?  For example, what is to say the LDS interpretation of the Jeremiah verse is more/less correct than any other?  

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

So yes, I see a conflict God wanting us into sinful bodies, then punish us for the sins that come with it.

Why do you think having a body in inherently sinful?  Was Christ inherently sinful for having a body?

In order to sin, a person must know right from wrong.  An infant cannot sin, because they do not know right from wrong.  They can transgress-- to do wrong things without knowing it, but the cannot sin.  Adam did not know right from wrong before partaking of the fruit, but only learned after the fall (see Gen 3:22), therefore their actions were a transgression, not a sin.

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

PS, it's impossible for me to answer each one you.

That's fine, you're doing great here.

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

PS2, I can't find a preview button, only a submit button, do I need new glasses?

I wish we had one...

[ProDeo]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

If this means that your one-on-one conversation with me is impossible to continue (taken as part of the larger group of thread participants vying for your attention) , I'll understand. I do want to express my gratitude to you for taking the time to share your personal feelings with me.

What I meant was that's impossible for me to write more than 1 or 2 (significant) postings as a) there is so many new information to process and b) I am a bit handicapped because English isn't my native language. I am a Dutchie and you know what is said: as a finishing touch God created the Dutch

[ProDeo]

On ‎10‎-‎7‎-‎2017 at 3:14 PM, Jane_Doe said:

ProDeo, are you familiar with the LDS belief of the Great Apostasy?

I had to look it up, quite some view.

[ProDeo]

On ‎10‎-‎7‎-‎2017 at 3:25 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Ultimately the biggest question a person can ask-- not just on this topic, but on any-- is "How can I know Truth?"

Rather than trying to just weigh a million different interpretations and pick which one a person like's best, I would say that the answer is "By going to the source of all Truth, God, and listening to Him".  

Go ask Him.

Yep.

Did that, still do.

[ProDeo]

On ‎10‎-‎7‎-‎2017 at 6:02 PM, zil said:

Approaching Zion, Hugh Nibley, Chapter 3 "Zeal without Knowledge", immediately after covering the fact that mortal man can only think about one thing at a time (italics mine):

To me, the reason we do not remember pre-mortality is the same - it would hinder our ability to fully exercise agency.  This is also why I believe we will not remember pre-mortality before the resurrection - if we did, there would be no need to preach the gospel in the post-mortal spirit world - the memory of life with God would be overwhelming.

Perhaps the (or part of the) answer is that Jesus was the only one who was aware of His life in heaven. John 8:58, 17:5

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

I am a Dutchie and you know what is said: as a finishing touch God created the Dutch

I thought it was, "They didn't amount to much / But God still made the Dutch."

No, wait. "God made the Dutch / To use as a crutch."

That's not right. Let's see: "God said, 'Let us make some darn such-and-such.' / And -- POOF! -- thus were born the Dutch!"

Uh...nope. How about, "God created the Low-landers / To make things using belt-sanders."

That doesn't seem right. "To help us when we crack our jokes / God created the windmill folks."

Hmmm. I'm going to have to think about this, unless someone can remind me.