Murder and repentance

[chasingthewind]

I recently came across the following verse in my scripture studies,

Quote

18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

- D&C 42:18

Is it really not possible for a murderer to repent?  Does this mean we shouldn't bother sharing the gospel with murderers since there's no chance they'll receive forgiveness?

Edited August 15, 2017 by chasingthewind

[BeccaKirstyn]

Just for clarification, that scripture is D&C 42:18, not 48:18

[zil]

2 minutes ago, chasingthewind said:

I recently came across the following verse in my scripture studies,

(1) Is it really not possible for a murderer to repent?  (2) Does this mean we shouldn't bother sharing the gospel with murderers since there's no chance they'll receive forgiveness?

(1)  It doesn't say a murderer can't repent - it says he won't have forgiveness (in other words, the Atonement doesn't cover murder, the murderer will have to suffer for his own sins - my interpretation).

(2) Given the answer to (1), no, it does not mean that.  We should indeed share the gospel with them so that they can improve to the best of their ability.  Further, I personally am not prepared to label someone a murderer for the purposes of this scripture (let alone for the purposes of eternity).  Christ will be the judge of whether a person is condemned of this sin. See Alma 24, particularly verses 10 and 11; also Alma 27 - this recounts part of the story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehis.

[Guest]

My understanding (and I do not have citations on me) is that a murderer does not have eternal life within him.  

A true murderer can be saved in the telestial kingdom, but it may be very difficult, if not impossible, to go celestial.

This is subject to exceptions (e.g., the People of Ammon).

That doesn't mean someone who is a murderer should just give up.  The more a murderer tries to repent, the better off they will eventually be.  There has been some discussion on this forum that David repented enough to go terrestrial.  

 

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, chasingthewind said:

1.) Is it really not possible for a murderer to repent? 

2.)  Does this mean we shouldn't bother sharing the gospel with murderers since there's no chance they'll receive forgiveness?

1.)  As Jesus is the judge, I leave it up to Him to decide.

2.)  As Jesus is the judge, we should not presume any person - including murderers - will be found guilty of murder by the Lord.  We, of course, must share the gospel with everyone lest we be made guilty of unrighteous judgment.

Edited August 15, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, chasingthewind said:

I recently came across the following verse in my scripture studies,

Is it really not possible for a murderer to repent?  Does this mean we shouldn't bother sharing the gospel with murderers since there's no chance they'll receive forgiveness?

Look at the first line of the verse:

Quote

18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church.

This is not addressed to non-members.  It is addressed to the Church.

Generally, this means that if you have already received the Holy Ghost and have been taught right and wrong, etc.  You really should know better.  And if you sin against that greater knowledge, then you will not be forgiven (i.e. no Celestial Kingdom for you).

Those who were not raised with the knowledge of the truth and were not given the upbringing that will value life, there is some more leniency there.

The people of Ammon were murderers simply because they did not know.  They still had some awareness that murder was wrong.  But they did not have the Holy Ghost to impress upon them just how wrong it was.  When they were converted, a special condition was placed on them.  They could never take up arms against anyone else again.  They had to allow themselves to be killed rather than defend themselves.  By abiding by this covenant, they were forgiven and were thought to be the most righteous people of the Book of Mormon.

Twice in my life have I been associated with a murderer trying to get baptized.

Once on my mission, I just moved into an area where the ward mission leader told my companion that "John Smith" was not going to be baptized.  He said it in a solemn tone.  And my companion understood what he meant.  I was lost.  They explained to me that he had been a murderer who was trying to turn his life around.  But when they found out, they had to send some form to Salt Lake.  When it returned, the applicant was turned down.  Basically, he could not get baptized.

Another time was when I came home from my mission.  My father was ward mission leader.  And a very similar story had occurred with him.  But that applicant was accepted.  This murderer was baptized.

I can't fully claim to know why one was accepted and the other wasn't.  It may very well have been that the first guy wasn't fully repentant and that he wanted to go back to the lifestyle.  Maybe the Lord told the Prophet that he was going to relapse and he needed to wait so that he was not held under greater condemnation for murdering after he was baptized.  Only speculation.  I don't know.

A Mormon who really should know better goes and murders someone, is excommunicated.  And I believe he an't come back.  I've never heard of one coming back to the Church after that.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Guest

[chasingthewind]

27 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Look at the first line of the verse:

This is not addressed to non-members.  It is addressed to the Church.

Good catch!

[prisonchaplain]

@Carborendum's answer helps me, as a prison chaplain. This issue is similar to that we ask in our churches--can a "born again" Christian lose salvation? I belong to a church that says yes. Then there is the New Testament verse that says Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. Well, what's that, and have I done it??? The most common answer given is that this blasphemy is a rejection of the Holy Spirit's promptings over and over, until the LORD says, "Enough--you are done." The true sign of such blasphemy is that the blasphemer would never as, "Is it too late?" S/he would not care.  So, yeah, it's not ours to judge.

I recognize my comparisons are not exact, but this discussion has helped me.  :-)

[zil]

2 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The true sign of such blasphemy is that the blasphemer would never ask, "Is it too late?"

We agree with you on that, I think - a person cannot commit this sin without knowing full well that they are committing this sin.

[Colirio]

Great answers! 

 

Our limited perspective of the intentions of a person's heart disqualifies us from being able to judge others. 

 

For instance, to say "Thou shalt not kill" raises situational rationale, does it not? Is a soldier who kills for country unable to be forgiven? What about someone who kills in defense of loved ones? 

 

That raises the question of those who lose themselves to anger in the heat of the moment. Would it be just for their split second decision to condemn them for eternity? What about those who lose certain decision making abilities because they chose to use drugs or alcohol who's actions result in the death of another person? 

 

In my own mind, there are simply too many variables to account for without having a perfect knowledge and understanding of the person's heart and mind. 

[NeuroTypical]

28 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

So, yeah, it's not ours to judge.

That's a very important point too.  Our stewardship in this life does not extend to telling someone they are damned or won't be forgiven, or any such thing.  Such judgments belong to the Lord, not to us humans.

The great commandment to love thy neighbor extends to murderers - those are our marching orders.  

It's one of the reasons I really like prisonchaplain.

[zil]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's one of the reasons I really like prisonchaplain.

That and the fact that for today only, he's paying a premium for "likes" so he can win the leaderboard...

[Rob Osborn]

Definitely its in reference to those who have already entered into the new and everlasting covenant (the gospel ordinances).  If one does not recieve forgiveness in this world nor tge next, as the verse implies, they cannot be saved and consequently become sons of perdition.

[prisonchaplain]

43 minutes ago, zil said:

That and the fact that for today only, he's paying a premium for "likes" so he can win the leaderboard...

So thankful to the Russian hacker who got me @zil's Paypal info.  :-)