The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 I have seen a lot of comments in recent years about unity with the underlying idea being that individual unity with others is the measuring stick of our Christianity. Without getting into the details of it yet, I reject this concept. Discuss. Fether 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I have seen a lot of comments in recent years about unity with the underlying idea being that individual unity with others is the measuring stick of our Christianity. Without getting into the details of it yet, I reject this concept. Discuss. And without getting into details of it either, I agree with your perceived concept... but with some reservations. Edited September 25, 2017 by Fether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, Fether said: And without getting into details of it either... I hope not everyone replies this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Fether said: ... but with some reservations. Get into the details! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Get into the details! Haha ok well here is where I agree. I think most of us agree that Christianity is more than just getting along with the guy next to you. Also being unified with someone does not mean agreeing with them. Nor does it suggest that we should allow other to believe wrongly. This could lead some to believe a lack of unity (which in many cases it is). Where I MAY disagree with you (not sure cause you didn't make a clear stance )is that I do believe that a level of unity among all men and women should exist if we want to b called Christian.Just like Joseph Smith taught that he would stand in defense if any man is unjustly attacked, we should too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Fether said: Where I MAY disagree with you (not sure cause you didn't make a clear stance )is that I do believe that a level of unity among all men and women should exist if we want to b called Christian.Just like Joseph Smith taught that he would stand in defense if any man is unjustly attacked, we should too. How do you explain the likes of Captain Moroni then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: How do you explain the likes of Captain Moroni then? Which scenario are you referencing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Fether said: Which scenario are you referencing? What I mean is, if a level of unity must exist to be Christian, then what about those times when you, by God's command, march on Zarahemla, tear down the king-men by the sword, and string their leader up by his neck? What about those times you raise the title of liberty and then put to death all those who will not swear to abide by it? What about the times you literally kill the enemy to protect your homes and families? Is there any unity with the enemy in these actions? Edited September 25, 2017 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I have seen a lot of comments in recent years about unity with the underlying idea being that individual unity with others is the measuring stick of our Christianity. Without getting into the details of it yet, I reject this concept. Discuss. Replacing the definite article with the indefinite article renders the above statement true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Just now, Vort said: Replacing the definite article with the indefinite article renders the above statement true. I still disagree...but less stringently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: I still disagree...but less stringently. How else to understand the Savior's words, "If ye are not one, ye are not mine"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laronius Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I have seen a lot of comments in recent years about unity with the underlying idea being that individual unity with others is the measuring stick of our Christianity. Without getting into the details of it yet, I reject this concept. Discuss. I think you need to define what you mean by unity. When I hear the word unity used in a gospel discussion I immediately think of Zion where the people are of one heart and one mind. To me that is the ultimate destination of a Christian life. So do you disagree with that or are you defining unity differently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Just now, Vort said: How else to understand the Savior's words, "If ye are not one, ye are not mine"? Because there is an implicit in the Savior's teaching. "If ye are not one [IN ME], ye are not mine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said: Because there is an implicit in the Savior's teaching. "If ye are not one [IN ME], ye are not mine." Seems like a meaningless distinction. In context: Quote But, verily I say unto you, teach one another according to the office wherewith I have appointed you; and let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me. And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. This describes an individual unity, a knitting of hearts of one brother toward another, not a mystical union in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, laronius said: I think you need to define what you mean by unity. When I hear the word unity used in a gospel discussion I immediately think of Zion where the people are of one heart and one mind. To me that is the ultimate destination of a Christian life. So do you disagree with that or are you defining unity differently? No. I agree with that. It is what everyone else translates unity to mean (which is why I used the phrase "individual unity with others" in my qualification) that I disagree with. Unity, as a gospel principle, must be unity in Christ and righteousness, not simply unity for the sake of unity. Edit: The "individual unity with others" by itself might be incomplete -- but I trust I'll clear things up as it's discussed. Edited September 25, 2017 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Vort said: Seems like a meaningless distinction. In context: It is, in my opinion, the point of the entire discussion and very meaningful. But...... 1 minute ago, Vort said: This describes an individual unity, a knitting of hearts of one brother toward another, not a mystical union in Christ. ...this implies you are reading into my meaning. I'm not talking about something mystical. I'm talking about the means whereby we fulfill the command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Unity, as a gospel principle, must be unity in Christ and righteousness, not simply unity for the sake of unity. I think this is self-evident. Being unified in sin or even just in falsehood is a poor kind of unity. But the alternative is not normally a Captain Moroni-like individualistic stand against the corrupt Gadiantons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, Vort said: I think this is self-evident. I know YOU think this. You are not one of the ones I'm seeing constantly posting the idea that not getting along with satan-spawn means we're failing in this command. (Edit: point being: maybe it isn't as self-evident as we'd like to think). Edited September 25, 2017 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 39 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: 48 minutes ago, Fether said: ... but with some reservations. Get into the details! Yes, date, time, location, how many nights, how many in your party... If you want reservations, details are important! Sunday21 and mordorbund 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I know YOU think this. You are not one of the ones I'm seeing constantly posting the idea that not getting along with satan-spawn means we're failing in this command. (Edit: point being: maybe it isn't as self-evident as we'd like to think). If there is a group that goes about excoriating Saints who refuse to accept popular non-doctrinal opinions on this or that matter using "unity" as a bludgeon, then I'm with you. But as a general rule, I don't think that a lack of true unity in the Church is easily excusable by either party saying, "Well, those other guys believe the wrong thing!" If we can't agree on the New World location for Book of Mormon events, then let's set that aside and focus on becoming one. Whether the pearly gates swing or slide is of little importance. MrShorty, Traveler and mordorbund 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Vort said: If there is a group that goes about excoriating Saints who refuse to accept popular non-doctrinal opinions on this or that matter using "unity" as a bludgeon, then I'm with you. But as a general rule, I don't think that a lack of true unity in the Church is easily excusable by either party saying, "Well, those other guys believe the wrong thing!" I see it as a bludgeon that progressives use to cow those who stand up for truth at the expense of being considered "disagreeable" because of their views. I'm sure you've seen the same. And...also.... If? Edited September 25, 2017 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I see it as a bludgeon that progressives use to cow those who stand up for truth at the expense of being considered "disagreeable" because of their views. I'm sure you've seen the same. And...also.... If? I haven't noticed the "disunity" card being played in that way. Maybe I'm just forgetting about it, or maybe I'm not being perceptive enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Vort said: I haven't noticed the "disunity" card being played in that way. Maybe I'm just forgetting about it, or maybe I'm not being perceptive enough. Hmm. I feel like I get it every other day or two in some form on this very forum. Maybe I just read into things more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 54 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: What I mean is, if a level of unity must exist to be Christian, then what about those times when you, by God's command, march on Zarahemla, tear down the king-men by the sword, and string their leader up by his neck? What about those times you raise the title of liberty and then put to death all those who will not swear to abide by it? What about the times you literally kill the enemy to protect your homes and families? Is there any unity with the enemy in these actions? Those situations still fit that standard. The Kingmen weren't just an opposing belief, but were putting the nation of the Nephites at risk. You are essentially asking about unifying ourselves with those that want to kill us. Killing in the defense of our lives and freedom has long been condoned by God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 25, 2017 Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 33 minutes ago, zil said: Yes, date, time, location, how many nights, how many in your party... If you want reservations, details are important! I am once again... sick of your garbage Zil (hope you know I'm just messing around when I say this) zil and Sunday21 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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