An Evangelical Minister Speaks to a Mormon


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I am a recent convert to the LDS faith, having been baptized in late 2016.  I came from a strong evangelical background.  It wasn't too long ago, say 15 years, that I too, in my ignorance, believed Mormons were cultist.  And yes, I was very vocal about that opinion.  But let me be clear, when I would try to reach out to my friends and associates who were/are Mormons to leave their faith it wasn't because I thought little of them (because I loved and deeply respected for  all of them), it was because I wanted to see them in heaven.  Remember, "traditional" Christian denominations have a very different outlook on the afterlife than Mormons do.  There is no second chance in the afterlife as most protestants see it.  It was out of love that I would try to witness to my Mormon friends and associates.  

But to be honest, as I said before I believed this out of ignorance.  Had I looked past doctrinal differences and saw the fruits of the spirit that most Mormons bear in abundance I wouldn't have seen a cultists, I would have seen a fellow brother or sister in Christ.

It was only after I became associated with seasoned LDS members who took the time to explain what and why our church believes certain principals that my attitude slowly began to change.  As I became more familiar with LDS doctrine my attitude evolved from Mormons are cultist to Mormons are an odd denomination to becoming a member of the church myself.  

When I began attending church at our local ward, which was five years before I became LDS, I was always treated like another brother in Christ.  When I drew outside the lines in Sunday School or Priesthood (which was often) the members of my church didn't tell me to shut up, they simply listened, thanked me for sharing, and then explained what the LDS faith believes.  They practiced the admonition of Joseph Smith when he said, "You can accomplish a lot more good by having a kind word to say about your own faith than you can by having a disparaging one to say about someone else's."  And as my knowledge and understanding grew I found that I could easily agree with 90% of what I heard at church and in General Conference.  I found that our differences weren't as many as I thought.  I found that my brothers and sisters at the Mormon church wanted the same thing that I wanted:  to see our family, and loved ones, and friends, and the guy we pass on the street to spend the rest of eternity with then with our Father in Heaven.

As Mormons we believe that certain lost principals of the Gospel were restored to the earth by our Father through the Prophet Joseph Smith.  It is not the fault of those outside our faith that they are unaware of these truths.  

I would hope that when we come across those who unaware of what we know to be true that we first remember to always treat them like another brother or sister in Christ.  That we remember the words written in II Nephi 33:10:  :And now my beloved brethren and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto the words and believe in Christ;  and if ye believe not in not in these words believe in Christ;  and if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words for they are the words of Christ and he hath given them unto me and they teach all men that they shall do good."

I became a Mormon in large part because members of my ward helped me with my walk with Christ (they helped me to believe).  And as my relationship with God became stronger my desire to become a member of the LDS faith grew.  When I needed a blessing or someone to agree with me in prayer it was members of my ward who prayed with me and blessed me.  When my family was is a bad financial situation it was the church who helped us (despite only two members of our family being active members).  I could go on and on about the examples of members of my local church who looked past the fact that I wasn't a Mormon and wanted to help me become the best Christian I could be even if it meant that I might never join the Church.  

I loved and respected the Mormon church long before I became member because I saw that the love and the light of Christ shining through so many of the people of my ward. People who looked past the fact that I was operating on incomplete information and just helped me become the best Christian I could be.

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On 11/8/2017 at 12:50 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Or they're using some special definition of the word that's not in the dictionary.

 

Sorry for the much delayed response, but @warnerfranklin's post made me realize I missed this string.

@Jane_Doe BINGO! For many Evangelicals growing up in the 1960s-80s, including myself, the word "cult" meant a group that identifies as Christian but holds to teachings that are unorthodox--so much so that we would deem them false. Two common non-negotiable doctrines used to measure those groups were the Trinity and salvation-by-grace-alone. As you indicate, using "cult" for such groups was/is confusing, as our definition of the word is wrong. We might consider the wrong teachings heresies, and then deem the groups heretical. Those are not nice words, but they leave room for discussion. For most, "cult" means brainwashed and probably storing weapons for mass suicide, or worse. If you want to be nice about it then, simply replace the word "cult" with "heretical." Then you can be somewhat offended, but still have room to retort, if you feel so inclined. 

Edited by prisonchaplain
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6 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Sorry for the much delayed response, but @warnerfranklin's post made me realize I missed this string.

@Jane_Doe BINGO! For many Evangelicals growing up in the 1960s-80s, including myself, the word "cult" meant a group that identifies as Christian but holds to teachings that are unorthodox--so much so that we would deem them false. Two common non-negotiable doctrines used to measure those groups were the Trinity and salvation-by-grace-alone. As you indicate, using "cult" for such groups was/is confusing, as our definition of the word is wrong. We might consider the wrong teachings heresies, and then deem the groups heretical. Those are not nice words, but they leave room for discussion. For most, "cult" means brainwashed and probably storing weapons for mass suicide, or worse. If you want to be nice about it then, simply replace the word "cult" with "heretical." Then you can be somewhat offended, but still have room to retort, if you feel so inclined. 

I doubt there's a single American1 who hears the word "cult" and doesn't, within several seconds, think the word "Manson".  Given that fact, I cannot imagine any decent human liking it when someone says they're part of a cult.  Just sayin'.  The word is thrown around too easily by many.

1Well, OK, there's probably a time limit on this, but it's not expired yet, so....

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7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Sorry for the much delayed response, but @warnerfranklin's post made me realize I missed this string.

@Jane_Doe BINGO! For many Evangelicals growing up in the 1960s-80s, including myself, the word "cult" meant a group that identifies as Christian but holds to teachings that are unorthodox--so much so that we would deem them false. Two common non-negotiable doctrines used to measure those groups were the Trinity and salvation-by-grace-alone. As you indicate, using "cult" for such groups was/is confusing, as our definition of the word is wrong. We might consider the wrong teachings heresies, and then deem the groups heretical. Those are not nice words, but they leave room for discussion. For most, "cult" means brainwashed and probably storing weapons for mass suicide, or worse. If you want to be nice about it then, simply replace the word "cult" with "heretical." Then you can be somewhat offended, but still have room to retort, if you feel so inclined. 

I would be MUCH more in favor of calling us heretics over "cultists."  At least heretic is a logically accurate word.  If someone calls us a cult I get a bit offended.  If someone calls us heretics, I'd raise an eyebrow, but not much more.

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8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Sorry for the much delayed response, but @warnerfranklin's post made me realize I missed this string.

@Jane_Doe BINGO! For many Evangelicals growing up in the 1960s-80s, including myself, the word "cult" meant a group that identifies as Christian but holds to teachings that are unorthodox--so much so that we would deem them false. Two common non-negotiable doctrines used to measure those groups were the Trinity and salvation-by-grace-alone. As you indicate, using "cult" for such groups was/is confusing, as our definition of the word is wrong. We might consider the wrong teachings heresies, and then deem the groups heretical. Those are not nice words, but they leave room for discussion. For most, "cult" means brainwashed and probably storing weapons for mass suicide, or worse. If you want to be nice about it then, simply replace the word "cult" with "heretical." Then you can be somewhat offended, but still have room to retort, if you feel so inclined. 

I feel that the word "heretical" are MUCH precise in communicating one's message-- it's got one definition.  Versus "cult" which has many confused ones, and often times people just make up a definition.  As a bonus, at least to me 'heretical' comes with the over tone of 'heretical according to me'.  After all, aren't we all heretical Jews? ;)

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

After all, aren't we all heretical Jews? ;)

After playing various quotes from people commenting on Romney's candicacy (one of them saying that we really have to wonder what we would do with a leader who worships a false God) John Stewart said the following:

Quote

If I may...

As a Jew...

... Ehhh... You get used to it.

 

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On 11/13/2017 at 8:39 AM, Carborendum said:

#3 "Excessive".  According to who? 

Well, while every denomination has some people who follow their version of the Great and Holy Checklist, (If Jesus is lucky, a minor mention of remembering Him may be on the list somewhere below dietary habits.) most non-LDS discourage such behavior and treat those people like the retarded cousin you don't associate with. 

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21 hours ago, NightSG said:

Well, while every denomination has some people who follow their version of the Great and Holy Checklist, (If Jesus is lucky, a minor mention of remembering Him may be on the list somewhere below dietary habits.) most non-LDS discourage such behavior and treat those people like the retarded cousin you don't associate with. 

I fail to see the connection to the current thread and the context of my post that you quoted.  Enlighten me.

EDIT:  I think I get it now.  You have a point.

Edited by Guest
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On 2018-01-27 at 2:16 AM, prisonchaplain said:

Sorry for the much delayed response, but @warnerfranklin's post made me realize I missed this string.

@Jane_Doe BINGO! For many Evangelicals growing up in the 1960s-80s, including myself, the word "cult" meant a group that identifies as Christian but holds to teachings that are unorthodox--so much so that we would deem them false. Two common non-negotiable doctrines used to measure those groups were the Trinity and salvation-by-grace-alone. As you indicate, using "cult" for such groups was/is confusing, as our definition of the word is wrong. We might consider the wrong teachings heresies, and then deem the groups heretical. Those are not nice words, but they leave room for discussion. For most, "cult" means brainwashed and probably storing weapons for mass suicide, or worse. If you want to be nice about it then, simply replace the word "cult" with "heretical." Then you can be somewhat offended, but still have room to retort, if you feel so inclined. 

What if we replaced ‘heretical’ with ‘mistaken’ or ‘nonstandard’? Or an ‘alternative view’?

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6 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

What if we replaced ‘heretical’ with ‘mistaken’ or ‘nonstandard’? Or an ‘alternative view’?

Personally, if it's a group with a unified beliefs (like a Catholic church) using "heretical" to describe views they believe to be false and I'm ok with them stating that.  

If it's a group with diverse beliefs (like generic Christian groups), I feel that "nonstandard" is accurate.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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9 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

What if we replaced ‘heretical’ with ‘mistaken’ or ‘nonstandard’? Or an ‘alternative view’?

The word "heresy" raises the temperature of the disagreement. I may find the 7th Day Adventist view of Sabbath mistaken, but the LDS view of the Trinity hits at who we say God is. It's more important. On the other hand, you will find many traditional Christians (Evangelical and otherwise) who no longer believe doctrine is that important anyway, and so would likely rejoice at seeing such discussions toned down to the level of alternatives.

In an attempt to go half way though, I would argue that some LDS teachings are heretical (at least to Evangelical standards), but would not say LDS members are heretics. They are abiding by their church's doctrines and standards. Now, if an A/G minister taught LDS doctrines in an AG church s/he would be a heretic.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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55 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

What if we replaced ‘heretical’ with ‘mistaken’ or ‘nonstandard’? Or an ‘alternative view’?

But I like the idea of being a heretic.  It takes me half way to a Monty Python skit.  And I don't like being mistaken, so you can just scratch that off the list.  "Alternative" has way too much sinful connotation these days (you know, alternative life styles and all).  And while "standard" is boring, "nonstandard" just isn't terribly interesting.  Nope, I'm thinking heretical for me. :D

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3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm trying to picture how @zil could pull off being a Mormon heretic. Maybe, when it was her turn to bear her testimony, she could say, "I know that the church is true, and Heavenly Father has revealed to me that the Trinity doctrine is right, after all."  :lookaround:

I don't want to be a Mormon heretic, silly!  I want to be an everything else heretic!  I mean if the rest of you have to call me something, I think I prefer "heretic" over all the other options suggested so far.

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1 minute ago, zil said:

I don't want to be a Mormon heretic, silly!  I want to be an everything else heretic!  I mean if the rest of you have to call me something, I think I prefer "heretic" over all the other options suggested so far.

What's the fun in THAT. Most of the people you know in the real world are LDS. If none of them are calling you heretic, what's the point? No...no...take up my challenge. I double-dare you!

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33 minutes ago, zil said:

But I like the idea of being a heretic.  It takes me half way to a Monty Python skit.  And I don't like being mistaken, so you can just scratch that off the list.  "Alternative" has way too much sinful connotation these days (you know, alternative life styles and all).  And while "standard" is boring, "nonstandard" just isn't terribly interesting.  Nope, I'm thinking heretical for me. :D

Pagan! https://www.google.ca/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&dcr=0&source=hp&ei=lH5uWsH8LsfisAXXkLm4BA&q=burnt+at+stake+pictures&oq=burnt+ar+stake+&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0i13k1j0i13i30k1l4.3596.11764.0.13021.16.16.0.2.2.0.179.2166.0j15.16.0....0...1c.1.64.mobile-gws-hp..0.16.2089.3..0j41j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.235.j_ODxENNPVo#imgrc=itm82ICUm4csEM:

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  • 8 months later...
On 11/8/2017 at 9:50 AM, Carborendum said:

I was struggling with which forum to put this in.  I suppose this one is as good as another.

Yesterday, I was having lunch with my wife at a common lunch hangout in town.  It is owned by an evangelical family.  They have "As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" painted on the main wall in the dining area.  Every time I read it, I have to tilt my head a bit at the word "household".  I'm used to the KJV wording of "house".  This, by itself, is trivial.  But it laid the groundwork for something that happened while we were eating.

Behind me were seated six men who were talking very loudly.  So loudly that we were having difficulty hearing our own conversation.  I was getting irritated to the point where I was about to get up and ask them to quiet down.  But since I've been trying to control my temper lately, I took a "celestial time out".  I started listening to what they were saying.  I signed to my wife seated across from me to be quiet and listen to their conversation.  She mentioned that the main voice among them was the minister who owned a church less than a mile from our house.  They have a large plot of land that they rent out for campground space.  Our boy scouts went on a campout there.  The ward had a ward campout there.

THE CONVERSATION

The minister mentioned that at his 'day job' (I can certainly appreciate a low-paid or unpaid minister) he was being visited by some big wigs from corporate headquarters who were all from Utah.  He naturally assumed most of them were Mormon.  He got to know them over the course of the day.  They toured the facility, audited books, inspected policies and procedures, etc.  He thought they were nice enough folks.  He talked to them professionally.  And as the day wore on, he talked to them personally.  By mid-afternoon the conversations drifted to religion.  He didn't actually find out just who was or was not a Mormon in the group.

He described to his dining companions that he never had the intention to really try to convert any of them.  He just wanted to get a conversation going.  He told the man who was his shadow for the day that he really does appreciate all the service that the Mormons are doing especially after the floods these past few years that have hit the South so hard.  But he then said that the ministry is more than just helping people.  His ministry is about helping people come to Christ.  And that is why he's so concerned about Mormons.  They do all these good things.  But they just don't have Christ in their lives.  And they will just never know the peace that comes from being a "believer".

It turned out that his shadow for the day was a man who had actually apostatized in the middle of his mission many years back.  He turned his back on the Church and his family (5 generations of Mormons) and hasn't gone back.  He also never joined any other faith.  He only had "an overarching belief in God" (His words).

The remainder of his conversation with his eating companions described how it was nice to just talk with a Mormon about religious things without bashing or trying to convert -- just get the conversation going.  And that was how he believed that Mormons would eventually come around, by loving them to Christ.

MY REACTION

I was considering that I ought to say something. But what could I say that wasn't argumentative or come off as a bully?  I took some time to consider.  I truly appreciated the fact that this minister proved that they had loving and thoughtful conversations about Mormons.  These were almost verbatim the same ones that we have about non-Mormons.  We want to love them to Christ.  They want to love us to Christ.  So, what was the problem?

I grew up with four categories of people: 1) Those who knew nothing about Mormonism  2) Those who converted  3) Those who hated our faith and felt it was their duty to save us  & 4) Those who knew, were friends, and decided to just avoid the topic of religion because they "just wanted to be friends".  So, I found it refreshing to hear him talk about finding more friendly and affable methods of reaching out to Mormons.

In my youth, there was no group of people who wanted to save us who actually loved us.  At least, from everything I saw on my end, the first words out of their mouths were always about how X, Y, or Z was wrong with this "cult" I was a part of.  Yeah, that will really "love us to Christ".  Billy Graham (or possibly Franklin Graham) said about Mormons being a cult,"We're not going to bring people to Christ by calling them names."

Now, there is a big difference between "cult" and "religion" as far as connotations go.  It is a small difference between "house" and "household".  But minor differences in wording are a major part of what separates us.  All throughout the conversation of this minister and with the words of Franklin Graham there is another word thrown about that no one even considers.  "Christian".  We consider ourselves Christians.  They UTTERLY refuse to use that appellation regarding Mormons.  So, the only thing they can call us are things like "cult" or "parasite on Christianity".  Yes, one anti-Mormon friend would constantly and quite casually call us that "a parasite".

In the end I realized that I'd be more like this guy who apostatized.  If I ever found sufficient cause to leave the faith and renounce my beliefs, I could never join an evangelical faith because of this one fact.  They absolutely refuse to call us Christians.  In fact, most actively state that we are NOT Christians.  Some have even gotten offended and angry at me for being a Mormon who believed that Jesus was my Savior.  They can only get around it by formulating definitions that allow them this delusion.  And even then it is applied inconsistently.  It is this behavior and belief that I simply could never accept.  I know we are Christians.  I know how much our beliefs and teaching center around Christ.  The level of systemic cognitive disconnect among them is just too great for me to get past.

This minster (with every few phrases) kept stating how close we were, but we simply weren't Christians.  Franklin Graham on a number of occasions has stated that we are not Christians.  So many others in my experience.  How many other ministers in TV interviews and televangelists have made similar comments?  If evangelists really want to reach out to us, they're going to have to start acknowledging the fact that we really are a Christian faith.  As it is, all they have is those who have left the Church on their own.

I try my best to attempt to figure out where Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is leading me in a somewhat new direction and the why......

Beginning around June or July I felt that I had to attend the local LDS  ward..... (New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, Canada).....

I was inspired to do this partly after hearing evidence that the 2012 election may have been stolen through illegal voting plus voter machine owned by George Soros????

This has implications for the fulfillment of the White Horse President prophecy.........

At this time I suspect that I may be able to eventually do something of a ministry to ex-Mormons....... and assist them to be able to attend services again.......

because although I was disfellowshipped from the Worldwide Church of God and an offshoot.... the Philadelphia Church of God......

I am really, really glad that I was once a member of both those churches.......  Even those churches are composed of humans......

who make mistakes..... I feel that where I am at now in my relationship to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is largely founded on what I learned from those two churches.......

I have ran into quite a few ex-Mormons online.... and but wow...... many of them are not at peace / Shalom at all..... they seem very troubled and angry.  

I also feel that I have to assist the LDS church to get closer to the Jewish community..... and Israelis........

I am not sure if I am supposed to become LDS myself for many reasons......  one of them is that it would make it very, very, very, very difficult to reach out to ex-LDS..... if I was officially LDS myself????

I am one of the only Christians that I know who might just be able to become a Prostylite to Judaism.... without renouncing my belief in Messiah Yeshua - Jesus as Messiah the Passover Lamb......

Edited by DennisTate
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