How many Gods DO we believe in?

[Grunt]

So, if LDS believe that all three individuals in the Godhead are Gods and that we will also become Gods, then why do they worship God?  Why does Jesus worship the Father?

Sorry if that comes across as accusatory, it's offered in sincerity.  I'm having a hard time understanding this.

[Rob Osborn]

The closest analogy I have is that the trinitarian belief of three manifestations of one being, yet, not, makes as much ilogical sense as does our LDS doctrine of the Holy Ghost being one distinct being yet being somehow present in multiple places at the same time. It all makes no sense.

[Midwest LDS]

@Grunt We worship God the Father because he is our God. He created us and He listens to and answers our prayers. He knows us personally (Remember he called Joseph by his first name, implying how closely he was aware of him and his questions). He will always be our God. Even when we reach exaltation, our Heavenly Father will still be our God. He created the universe and personally created Adam and Eve. The commandments are His and He is the one who proposed the Plan of Salvation to us in the grand council in heaven, not to mention being the Father of our spirits. Even after Christ was exalted and a Celestial being, when he came to Earth and visited the Americas he prayed to his Father as God. 3rd Nephi 19:19-20.           

   "And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
            20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world."

I'll admit the discussion about the Godhead can get confusing but Christ's example shows me both God the Father's power and why we worship Him.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[zil]

30 minutes ago, Grunt said:

So, if LDS believe that all three individuals in the Godhead are Gods and that we will also become Gods, then why do they worship God?  Why does Jesus worship the Father?

Sorry if that comes across as accusatory, it's offered in sincerity.  I'm having a hard time understanding this.

Because he is our Father and God, the creator of all of us, including Jesus, and he will continue to be so forever, and because we love him.  Your own earthly father doesn't stop being a father just because you became a father.  He still deserves your respect for the work and sacrifices he did to raise you (assumptions there of the normal father-child relationship that used to be the norm and isn't so much anymore).  Also, as you grow and develop into a respectable person, and then a good father, this just brings more "glory" to your own father - you have added to him, in a sense.  I know many people who appreciate, respect, admire their parents more after becoming parents themselves (because they understand just how much their parents did for them when they were children - things we tend to be oblivious of as children).

So, while we have the chance to become what God now is, in doing so, we will be adding to God's glory, not decreasing it, not making it equal to our own, but elevating him as we rise to where he was.

At least, that's sort of how I see it.  But as the scriptures teach, we simply cannot imagine the next life.

[Jane_Doe]

57 minutes ago, Grunt said:

So, if LDS believe that all three individuals in the Godhead are Gods and that we will also become Gods, then why do they worship God?  Why does Jesus worship the Father?

Because we love Him!  

We rejoice, sing praises, give thanks, and revere God in Him.  He is infinite goodness, grace, mercy, justice, wisdom, etc.  We are none of those things.  And even once we have been filled to the brim with them (a miraculous gift which is only made possible through God's amazing power and unwarranted love/mercy), He will still be our God.  That loving relationship doesn't just disappear, rather is burned into the core of our beings.

In a way it's like an Earthly family: I love my mom dearly, and that love doesn't go away because I'm now a grown-up mom myself-- she'll always be my mom and I will always love her.

[prisonchaplain]

15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Aren’t all of us Christians really just taking different roads to explain why our concept of Jesus as both a god and Son of God, doesn’t violate the Old Testament shemat?  Maybe we should all just embrace each other in our mutual heresy here.  

Nah...we really can't. If we did, what to do with the Great Apostasy? 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

So, if LDS believe that all three individuals in the Godhead are Gods and that we will also become Gods, then why do they worship God?  Why does Jesus worship the Father?

Sorry if that comes across as accusatory, it's offered in sincerity.  I'm having a hard time understanding this.

What does it mean to "worship"?  Don't look it up in the dictionary.  What is it that you feel in your heart when you believe you are "worshiping"?

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What does it mean to "worship"?  Don't look it up in the dictionary.  What is it that you feel in your heart when you believe you are "worshiping"?

To me?   Revere.  Honor.  Give praise.  

[Guest]

Just now, Grunt said:

To me?   Revere.  Honor.  Give praise.  

So, why wouldn't we do that to all three?  Why would we ever stop no matter what state we attain?

Here is a saying that was applied for a different meaning.  But it could be applied here.

Some people say they don't need to pray because they're doing ok and don't need his help right now.  Others say they can't pray because they aren't worthy to pray to a perfect God.  Both miss the point.  

We don't pray to God because we are or are not worthy.  We don't pray because we are ok or not ok.  We pray because He is worthy.  We pray because He is always above us.  We revere, honor, and give praise to Him because He deserves it.

While it is not in our doctrine that we will ever be His "peer",  we can consider why we praise our fellow men.  We love them as well.  The first and second commandment go hand in hand.  How can you say ye love not your brother whom ye have seen and love God whom ye have not seen?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The closest analogy I have is that the trinitarian belief of three manifestations of one being, yet, not, makes as much ilogical sense as does our LDS doctrine of the Holy Ghost being one distinct being yet being somehow present in multiple places at the same time. It all makes no sense.

Where is that doctrine written?  I've never heard it.  Gospel Principles Ch 4 specifically says he can only be in one place at one time.  We say His presence can be felt everywhere.  This means that His power and influence can be felt everywhere.  Not His physical being.

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

So, why wouldn't we do that to all three?  Why would we ever stop no matter what state we attain?

Here is a saying that was applied for a different meaning.  But it could be applied here.

Some people say they don't need to pray because they're doing ok and don't need his help right now.  Others say they can't pray because they aren't worthy to pray to a perfect God.  Both miss the point.  

We don't pray to God because we are or are not worthy.  We don't pray because we are ok or not ok.  We pray because He is worthy.  We pray because He is always above us.  We revere, honor, and give praise to Him because He deserves it.

While it is not in our doctrine that we will ever be His "peer",  we can consider why we praise our fellow men.  We love them as well.  The first and second commandment go hand in hand.  How can you say ye love not your brother whom ye have seen and love God whom ye have not seen?

I understand, but I know many people who are worthy of praise.  I guess this is where I get confused.  If we aren’t his peer, and I agree with that, then are there lesser Gods?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

I understand, but I know many people who are worthy of praise.  I guess this is where I get confused.  If we aren’t his peer, and I agree with that, then are there lesser Gods?

I can't point to a scripture that states it.  But the general idea and belief is that 1) We will be gods.  and 2) The Father will Always be above us.  So, it makes sense to believe so.

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I can't point to a scripture that states it.  But the general idea and belief is that 1) We will be gods.  and 2) The Father will Always be above us.  So, it makes sense to believe so.

Thanks!   At this point in my journey, I don’t really believe that.  I’ll research it more.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Thanks!   At this point in my journey, I don’t really believe that.  I’ll research it more.  

That's cool.  The question I've asked often enough is "Do you believe you can become an angel?  If so, what is an angel?"

An angel is an immortal holy being with immense power.  So, what is a god again?  Some of why we have problems with some concepts is that words get in the way.

Specifically, the gospel wording when we commonly discuss it is that we will receive "exaltation."  Now what does that mean?  Well...

Edited November 30, 2017 by Guest

[Grunt]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's cool.  The question I've asked often enough is "Do you believe you can become an angel?  If so, what is an angel?"

An angel is an immortal holy being with immense power.  So, what is a god again?  Some of why we have problems with some concepts is that words get in the way.

Specifically, the gospel wording when we commonly discuss it is that we will receive "exaltation."  Now what does that mean?  Well...

Now THAT I understand.  In my mind, “God” is specific and individual.  I believe we will be better and eternal, but I believe there is only one God.  The same with Christ.  

 

Edited to add:  By "same with Christ" I mean he is more exalted than we will become due to his perfection, but he is not God either.  

Edited November 30, 2017 by Grunt

[Jane_Doe]

23 minutes ago, Grunt said:

If we aren’t his peer, and I agree with that, then are there lesser Gods?

Right now we're less than God -- we're sinners, He's Perfect.

Eventually we will be made Perfect (through Him).  At that time we will both be equally Perfect (Perfect==Perfect).  The turn "peer"...that's a weird one...I really not sure how I feel about it.

***

Again, the family comparison: when you were a kid you were less of an adult than your dad.  Now through his guidance you're a grown-up dad yourself.   You're both dads (the same in that regard), and the fact that  he will always be YOUR dad doesn't make you a "lesser" dad.

[Grunt]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Right now we're less than God -- we're sinners, He's Perfect.

Eventually we will be made Perfect (through Him).  At that time we will both be equally Perfect (Perfect==Perfect).  The turn "peer"...that's a weird one...I really not sure how I feel about it.

***

Again, the family comparison: when you were a kid you were less of an adult than your dad.  Now through his guidance you're a grown-up dad yourself.   You're both dads (the same in that regard), and the fact that  he will always be YOUR dad doesn't make you a "lesser" dad.

That's what I don't believe and seem to get conflicting answers from Mormons.  I believe I will always be lesser than God, and Christ to a lesser degree.  Is their doctrine or scripture that answers this directly?

[Jane_Doe]

12 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I believe I will always be lesser than God, and Christ to a lesser degree.

How so "lesser"?

12 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 Is their doctrine or scripture that answers this directly?

man is become as one of us, Gen. 3:22 (Moses 4:28).

• Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:48).

• spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39.

• we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29.

• heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, Rom. 8:17.

• changed into the same image from glory to glory, 2 Cor. 3:18.

• if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4:7.

• him that overcometh will … sit with me in my throne, Rev. 3:21.

• what manner of men ought ye to be … even as I am, 3 Ne. 27:27.

• your joy shall be full … shall be even as I am, 3 Ne. 28:10.

 

And a bunch more (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-potential-to-become-like-heavenly-father).   Here's a good LDS.org essay on the subject too (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng)

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Grunt]

Thank you!

Even reading those, either I'm not fully understanding the belief or it's not what I believe at this time.  

Ill go look at the essays.  

[Midwest LDS]

It seems to me though that @Grunt is correct we may just be having a miscommunication about lesser. While we will one day be joint heirs with Christ and be perfected through his Grace and become as God, God will always be above us. I point to my earlier scriptural reference, as well as John 20:17 where the resurrected and Celestial Christ refers to our Father in Heaven as "my God and your God". If anyone could claim to be equal to our Father in Heaven it would be his perfected Son Jesus Christ, yet he doesn't claim to be. I think that implies that no matter how far our eternal progression goes, our Heavenly Father will always be above us.

[NeedleinA]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:24 PM, gracie238 said:

he concluded the story...
our staple beliefs...
form of monotheism?

If this was written by a teenage seminary student, I'm a part time garbage man in Zimbabwe.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Even reading those, either I'm not fully understanding the belief or it's not what I believe at this time.  

You're always going to bow to the Father, because He's your Father.  The bow is because you love Him, not because He's a big bully that will beat you up.  You will eventually be like Him in Perfect Goodness, Righteous, and share everything He has.  But you'll still always bow to Him because you love Him.  

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

If this was written by a teenage seminary student, I'm a part time garbage man in Zimbabwe.

Heh, if people want to lie, that's their sin before God.  I still think it's been a useful discussion, especially for @Grunt's benefit. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Grunt said:

That's what I don't believe and seem to get conflicting answers from Mormons.  I believe I will always be lesser than God, and Christ to a lesser degree.  Is their doctrine or scripture that answers this directly?

No, not really.  The idea that we will be "equal" with God is not one that I really hear.  I have always believed He will always be above us.  And so will Christ.  I'm not certain if anything has been said about the Holy Ghost in that regard.  But I'd assume it is so.

The Father is our father.  He will always be our father. And no matter how far we go, it will always be so.

Jesus is our Elder Brother.  He was the only one who went through the Atonement.  He was the only one who could.  That is why we worship Him.  We always will.

I'll give my infinity analogy again.  There's infinity and there's infinity.  In math infinity + infinity = infinity.  But infinity x infinity = infinity^2.  God was infinite before we were even born as spirits.  Then he had children.  This increased His glory.  How was infinity increased?  Well, it was.

When  we as his children are exalted, we are given glory.  But that glory is always given to the Father.  This was the great secret that Jesus knew that Satan did not (Moses 4:1-2).  All glory goes to the Father.  But that doesn't mean we don't have glory too.  We have to have glory in order to give glory to the Father.  Thus the Father's infinity is infinity^2 while we remain infinity.  In this sense, we need to understand that it is like love.  We give love, but that doesn't decrease the love we have.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Guest

[Grunt]

My brain hurts.  

 

Im not smart enough to be Mormon.  

Edited November 30, 2017 by Grunt