What determines when and where we are born?

[Soul Captain]

Hello,

Is it possible that someone earned being born into tragic circumstances in the pre-earth life?

Thanks

[Jane_Doe]

There is no such doctrine and many of those type of ideas have been specifically been disavowed.

Have you been going through a hard time, @Soul Captain?  Did you want tot talk about it?

[zil]

Welcome, @Soul Captain!

While we do not have revelation which explicitly talks about the timing or other circumstances of one's birth, we do have some tidbits on the topic which basically all boil down to: God knows what he's doing, has a plan (which will not be thwarted), what He does is designed to bring about the best possible result for each individual, and we each have agency and the opportunity to make choices which will lead to our eternal destination.

(Going with a summary for now until such point as more direction evolves as it would take some time to dig out the sources for above.)

I give it as my personal opinion that no matter your circumstances, you have the agency and opportunity of choosing either better or worse, and that where you are and comparative "betters" and "worses" (between different people) are irrelevant - the only thing that is relevant is whether you are choosing better or worse.

[mordorbund]

48 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There is no such doctrine and many of those type of ideas have been specifically been disavowed.

Have you been going through a hard time, @Soul Captain?  Did you want tot talk about it?

The Church has disavowed it with relation to race. The curriculum continues to include video excerpts for the general principle. See here to find this video.

 

[JohnsonJones]

My personal opinion is that what we do in the pre-existence directly impacts our conditions in this life.  How this occurs, we are not certain, but have some ideas.  I think that most likely, we had a hand in determining what condition we would arrive in this life in, and what our obstacles and tests would be.  WE, were the ones that chose what our life would entail and be like.

I think this makes it a LOT easier at judgement to determine who would have accepted the gospel in this life with all their heart if they had been given the chance.  They already made choices in the previous life.  For some, they may have chosen to not be offered the gospel on purpose, that they would rather make other choices in their life here on earth.  It was obvious already that they had made this choice.

Others probably wanted to come and receive the gospel in this life, but there was a task that someone go before hand.  Someone had to be the genealogical link from the past to the present and so they agreed to live in a time when the church did not exist upon the promise that their ancestors who were in the church would find their ancestors and do their work.

There are probably as many variables and choices in the pre-existence of what and why we came where we are in this life as there are people.

In some instances it is probable that we agreed with a great friend that they would come down in a situation that was not so great for them.  It was to try to help another person, their friend, learn a lesson such as compassion, humility, or some other item which they needed to learn and it would be easier to learn in this life than as a spirit.

Others probably saw that they wanted to learn a great deal of stuff and chose many various trials to help increase their understanding and spiritual growth in this life.  They chose a VERY tough earth life, knowing it is a brief moment compared to eternity, and through this challenge could learn more in that instant than many eons in spirit.

This may account for many who are born into tragic circumstances in this life.

There were probably others who said they didn't want so many tests, that they wanted an easier life and choose that direction for their life here.

I've also heard (and I actually believe it though many do not feel that this is correct today) that some of the most valiant spirits in heaven would be tempted beyond what they were able in this life.  As such, they are sent to gain bodies, to experience mortality, but they are disabled in some ways so that they are held above what the Adversary can tempt.  Thus, though they are here, the adversary is unable to truly touch them as they are cleansed by the atonement in the state that they are.  This may also apply to little children that die.  It is an idea that they were so great in heaven, that the adversary would put so much pressure to destroy them, that they are spared this and taken.

There are many ideas out there on this, what I said above is my PERSONAL opinion.  As I said, I think our choices in the pre-existence are directly related to where we are in this life, and what we experience.  This does not mean all those born into tragic situations are "earned" as we would put it, but, in my opinion, more related to our various choices in the pre-existence.  As I also stated, this means that it may be related to one simply choosing it because they had no concerns for certain items, or it could mean they came into those situations to learn themselves, or it could be that they chose in hopes that they might be able to help a friend to learn valuable lessons in this life.

[e-eye]

There is something to where and when we were born.  You can glean this from this statement alone:

Marvin J Ashton: I share with you a statement of President Benson made to a gathering of youth in Southern California after he became President of the Church:

“For nearly six thousand years, God has held you in reserve to make your appearance in the final days before the Second Coming. Every previous gospel dispensation has drifted into apostasy, but ours will not. … God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God. … Make no mistake about it—you are a marked generation. There has never been more expected of the faithful in such a short period of time as there is of us. … Each day we personally make many decisions that show where our support will go. The final outcome is certain—the forces of righteousness will finally win. What remains to be seen is where each of us personally, now and in the future, will stand in this fight—and how tall we will stand. Will we be true to our last-days, foreordained mission?”

I believe the opportunities that we have in this life in hearing and learning the gospel, came from what we did in the prior life.  I think the pattern holds true here too.  How we live our life here will benefit us more in the life after if we are true and faithful.  This life is the time to prepare and meet God and I think this life also includes living and dead up unto the final judgment, and although I don't know how it works I know God is just. 

[zil]

NOTE: Sometimes people assume that if a person is born into difficult circumstances, it means that they're being punished for something which they did in the pre-mortal realms, or that if they're born into "easy" circumstances, it means they're being rewarded for something they did in the pre-mortal realms.  I have never seen a prophetic statement which supports this belief.  The closest I've seen is that those who are born into the gospel are rewarded for their faithfulness in the pre-mortal realms (I've never seen a statement regarding the inverse, e.g. I've never seen anyone say that those who are born out of the covenant are being punished for lack of faithfulness in the pre-motal realms).

Either way, being born in the covenant does not equate to either difficult or easy, and being born out of the covenant does not equate to either difficult or easy.  One might be farther along the path to celestial glory than another, but I don't believe that's in indicator of "difficult" or "easy".  Further, I think we often misinterpret the significance or meaning or relevance of what we often perceive as "difficult" and "easy".

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Soul Captain said:

Hello,

Is it possible that someone earned being born into tragic circumstances in the pre-earth life?

Thanks

The disciples asked the Lord "Who was it that sinned?  This man or his parents, that this man was born blind?"

The Lord's answer: "Neither, but that the works of God should be made manifest."

(Forgive the slight paraphrasing).  There are over 7 billion people on this earth.  That makes over 7 billion causes about the how and why someone was born in their circumstances.  Which reason do you want?

[Soul Captain]

Thank you everyone. I would think Father in Heaven would prefer all to be born into a household of faith but free agency dictates He work with our choices, although not limited by them.

D+C 50

7 Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

9 Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Soul Captain said:

I would think Father in Heaven would prefer all to be born into a household of faith

And I think He would prefer¹ all to be born under those circumstances which would best help them to progress from where they are (as a spirit child) to their maximum potential (which includes the celestial kingdom, if they so choose).  I don't think it's necessary for everyone to start in "a household of faith" - though I think it is necessary for some to start there.

¹And because this is his will, he makes sure it happens.  I know some may not like the idea that one born into what we perceive as terrible circumstances is being born into the place the Father wills, but I can't see anyone getting into mortality without going through God, and I don't see God doing something which is against his own will, so...  (Idle wondering: I suppose it might be possible for a spirit child to insist on going into that (potential?) fetus even though the Father is there saying, "No, that's not where I want you," but that seems improbable to me.)

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Soul Captain said:

Thank you everyone. I would think Father in Heaven would prefer all to be born into a household of faith but free agency dictates He work with our choices, although not limited by them.

D+C 50

7 Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

9 Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.

???

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Soul Captain said:

Thank you everyone. I would think Father in Heaven would prefer all to be born into a household of faith but free agency dictates He work with our choices, although not limited by them.

D+C 50

7 Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

9 Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.

 

54 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

???

Yeah, I'm scratching my head too on how the D&C verses apply to the topic.

In any case, regarding "Father in Heaven would prefer all to be born into a household of faith", that's not a necessary indicator that we retain that "house of faith" to which we were born.  For example, I was born Catholic, I'm LDS now.  My husband was born LDS, he left the church when he was a teen and didn't get back until we got married.  Several people in our ward including our past bishop was born in the faith and has now left the faith.  Etc. etc.  In any case, what the Father and Jesus Christ did gift us is the Light of Christ.  Every single one of us, in whatever circumstance we are born in, are born with the Light of Christ within us.

Edited February 1, 2018 by anatess2

[Soul Captain]

The D+C 50:7-9 verses are meant to show that while our free agency can harm innocents eventually they will be "reclaimed" from our actions.

[pam]

2 hours ago, Soul Captain said:

The D+C 50:7-9 verses are meant to show that while our free agency can harm innocents eventually they will be "reclaimed" from our actions.

Actually what I get from these verses are about hypocrites.  Those who pretend to be someone they are not.  Eventually there will be a separation of them.  Kind of like the wheat and tares thing.  That there will be a cleansing so to speak.

From Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin:

Quote

 

If we practice guile in small matters, we soon can find ourselves entangled in an ever-increasing, unending spiral, because each lie or other deception often requires a larger one to cover the first. Moreover, the practice of guile often leads to hypocrisy, which is the false pretense of virtue or righteousness and pretending to be something that we are not. If we know what is right and profess to live by that knowledge but, in fact, do not, we are hypocrites. The Savior denounced hypocrites in unmistakable language. He declared:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of ... all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity (Matt. 23:27-28).

To the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed: "Wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment. ...

"[They] shall be detected and shall be cut off, ... and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world" (D&C 50:6, 8).

What are the Latter-day Saints to do? The answer is plain. The Saints are to be absolutely without guile in every aspect of their lives: in their homes and families, Church callings, all business dealings, and, especially, the private and personal parts of their lives into which only they and the Lord see.

I suggest that we look into our hearts and see whether our motives and actions are pure and above reproach and to see whether we are free of deceit and fraud. ("Without Guile," Ensign, May 1988, 82)

 

 

[pam]

Oh and another thing.  The term free agency.  You might notice that many church leaders have gotten away from using the term free.  Sometimes they will use moral agency.

President Dieter F. Uchtdorf said this:

Quote

“You have agency, and you are free to choose. But there is actually no free agency. Agency has its price. You have to pay the consequences of your choices.”