Repentance

[Traveler]

I am wondering – when should we call others to repentance?  Does stewardship have anything to do with such consideration?  Or should we just call it as we see it.  If anyone is doing something they shouldn’t is it proper to call them to repentance?

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am wondering – when should we call others to repentance?  Does stewardship have anything to do with such consideration?  Or should we just call it as we see it.  If anyone is doing something they shouldn’t is it proper to call them to repentance?

 

The Traveler

Every member a missionary, isn't it?

The purpose of being a missionary is to call people to repentance.  That's what conversion is.

[Guest]

You are free to say anything you want to anyone you want.  

However, if you want people to repent, you have to get people to listen first.  Therefore, a measure of tact is needed, so the person doesn't ignore you or go the other direction and do whatever you find objectionable even more.  

If you are close friends with someone who is doing something wrong, and you gently suggest a change in course, your criticism might be well received.  For example, I had a man in my ward when I was a kid who was my scout leader for awhile and was released.  He was a man I respected very much.  I used to say "you" instead of "thou" in prayer, because I wasn't really ever taught otherwise.  One day, he gently told me I should be using "thou" instead when praying.  His criticism was well received, even if he was not at that time my priesthood leader, because we had a sufficiently close relationship of respect and he was sufficiently tactful and I saw it was good advice.  

On the other hand, there was an old man in my ward who decided that facial hair was somehow disrespectful to the priesthood.  He would gripe at the young men whenever we weren't completely clean shaven (despite the fact he himself wore a mustache).  He had no leadership over us - just an old man who was trying to enforce his own rules.  We tried to be nice to him, but his counsel was not well received - we didn't shave for him and we would roll our eyes about the whole thing.

I think wise leaders take into account the above dynamics and try to build some sort of a relationship of trust and respect and use tact when calling people to repentance.

Edited March 2, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[The Folk Prophet]

23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am wondering – when should we call others to repentance?  Does stewardship have anything to do with such consideration?  Or should we just call it as we see it.  If anyone is doing something they shouldn’t is it proper to call them to repentance?

The Spirit is our guide.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

However, if you want people to repent, you have to get people to listen first. 

The strong implication here, of course, is that the reason we have been commanded to call the world to repentance is so they will. Clearly that is A reason. And likely the primary one. However, it is certainly not the only one. God well knows that most calls to repentance will be ignored. And yet it remains one of His prime directives, given to all men, for all men.

[Vort]

My general philosophy is: I don't call anyone specifically to repentance. I simply try to lead by example. On occasion, I have said something to those very close to me and over whom I have stewardship.

I make exceptions for semi-anonymous forums where people go off half-cocked and start proclaiming their own virtuous knowledge and the evils of anyone who doesn't fall into line with their philosophies. I'm pretty much okay with calling them to repentance, and bluntly at that. Not that I think it actually does much good. It's sort of a toy environment.

[Traveler]

 Is there any difference or what are the differences between.

#1. Calling someone to repentance

#2. Being critical of their ideas or understanding of doctrine

#3. Expressing a different opinion

#4. Testifying of Christ - especially the atonement

#5. Telling someone they have sinned against G-d and will be danmed unless they have a change of heart

 

The Traveler

Edited March 2, 2018 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 Is there any difference or what are the differences between.

#1. Calling someone to repentance

#2. Being critical of their ideas or understanding of doctrine

#3. Expressing a different opinion

#4. Testifying of Christ - especially the atonement

#5. Telling someone they have sinned against G-d and will be danmed unless they have a change of heart

 

The Traveler

2 is a pre-requisite of 1.** 3, 4 ,and 5 are theoretical subset means of executing 1.

 

** depending on what one means by "critical", of course.

Edited March 2, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[wenglund]

The bigger question to me, and one that arose on another thread, isn't so much whether or when to call people to repentance, but how to go about doing it.

The Golden Rule can be helpful.

However, some people, if not a lot of people, will respond differently than I to being treated the way I wish to be treated.

For example, I tend to like people to speak plainly and directly to the point even if it is a bit uncomfortable for me, since it is easier for my simple oft left-hemisphere dominate brain to process. Whereas, in my considerable experience, the opposite is true for the women in my life. For them, the indirect approach seems to work better.

So, it is a matter of trial and error (expect many errors and much trial), and as @The Folk Prophet says, "Let the Spirit Guide."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The bigger question to me, and one that arose on another thread, isn't so much whether or when to call people to repentance, but how to go about doing it.

The Golden Rule can be helpful.

However, some people, if not a lot of people, will respond differently than I to being treated the way I wish to be treated.

Right. I wonder if there some missing teachings around that principle. Taken literally it doesn't quite work unless a person is righteous. A wicked person doing unto others what they would have done unto them might lead to some perverted corrupt actions done unto others.

In principle, however, the concept behind the idea is solid. Put consideration of others before yourself.

[wenglund]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right. I wonder if there some missing teachings around that principle. Taken literally it doesn't quite work unless a person is righteous. A wicked person doing unto others what they would have done unto them might lead to some perverted corrupt actions done unto others.

In principle, however, the concept behind the idea is solid. Put consideration of others before yourself.

To me, the solid part is also the positive influence of the Golden Rule on the giver.

As for the receiver, the "missing principle" may be found in the immortal words of the Captain (prison Warden in Cool Hand Luke): "What we have here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just cant reach."

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

 

I made this list:

#1. Calling someone to repentance

#2. Being critical of their ideas or understanding of doctrine

#3. Expressing a different opinion

#4. Testifying of Christ - especially the atonement

#5. Telling someone they have sinned against G-d and will be damned unless they have a change of heart

 

It is my opinion that #1 and #4 are basically the same thing and is what is meant by every member a missionary – declaring repentance.

#2 is very problematic.  In 3Nephi Jesus condemned the disputations over the name of the Church and this included those that were right.  In essence he told the ones that were right that they were wrong to criticize those of a different opinion.

#3 I do not believe has anything with calling someone to repentance but is how I think doctrine should be discussed.

#5 I believe is a contingent of stewardship – that like revelation G-d has designated that judging someone to be damned is a right (perhaps either the most sacred or very close to the most sacred right) of G-d and those specifically that G-d had delegated keys of being a judge in Israel. 

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

#2 is very problematic.  In 3Nephi Jesus condemned the disputations over the name of the Church and this included those that were right.  In essence he told the ones that were right that they were wrong to criticize those of a different opinion.

I have never considered this teaching in exactly this light, Traveler. Thank you for giving me something important to think about.

[warnerfranklin]

Always with love and with the humility that we too have our many shortcomings.

With the understanding that a consistent and deep walk with Christ is more of an accuser than any words you may speak. 

That our goal is to help them seek Christ and not be a stumbling block of self righteous judgmentalism.  

[CV75]

On 3/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, Traveler said:

I am wondering – when should we call others to repentance?  Does stewardship have anything to do with such consideration?  Or should we just call it as we see it.  If anyone is doing something they shouldn’t is it proper to call them to repentance?

 

The Traveler

The term isn’t scriptural, but I take “call to repentance” to have its roots in priesthood office—whoever has the keys to repentance. Sometimes this is general, as in a talk or instructions, and sometimes it is personal such as bishops and home teachers counseling with members. Of course parents have a duty to teach their children which involves calling them to repentance in that way, and D&C 42:88 suggests how friends and acquaintances can deal with each other on matters that require repentance. Whatever the case, only when “moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him” (D&C 121:43).

[CV75]

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

 Is there any difference or what are the differences between.

#1. Calling someone to repentance

#2. Being critical of their ideas or understanding of doctrine

#3. Expressing a different opinion

#4. Testifying of Christ - especially the atonement

#5. Telling someone they have sinned against G-d and will be danmed unless they have a change of heart

 

The Traveler

Wow! #2-3 definitely are not calling someone to repentance; I commented on #1 (above); #5 would be reserved only for those possessing all the keys due to the damnation part, which goes way beyond a call to repentance and requires keys of the knowledge and power to say that in the name of God.

[The Folk Prophet]

54 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Wow! #2-3 definitely are not calling someone to repentance; 

How so?

Per 2: If you aren't critical of someone's ideas then how can you take it upon yourself to help them understand that those ideas need to change? I suppose it depends on what "being" critical means. Certainly that should often be internal. Many times the discussion of said criticism may be the catalyst for re-thought on the matter. Wasn't Christ critical of the Pharisees and Saducees? Wasn't Abinidi critical of king Noah? Wasn't Moses critical of the tribes of Israel and there idol worship? Wasn't Joseph Smith critical of church dissenters who betrayed him? Etc., etc., etc.

Per 3: It's really the same as 2, just the expression of it.

[The Folk Prophet]

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

#2 is very problematic.  In 3Nephi Jesus condemned the disputations over the name of the Church and this included those that were right.  In essence he told the ones that were right that they were wrong to criticize those of a different opinion.

And yet Christ criticized the Pharisees to their faces. So what gives?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

The term isn’t scriptural, 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=call+them+to+repent&x=0&y=0

Huh?

[CV75]

5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How so?

My semantics, pure and simple.

5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=call+them+to+repent&x=0&y=0

Huh?

The link you provided offers much more well-rounded contexts for the concept. As you can see the phrase, "call to repentance," as it is bandied about, is not found in the scriptures.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

My semantics, pure and simple.

The link you provided offers much more well-rounded contexts for the concept. As you can see the phrase, "call to repentance," as it is bandied about, is not found in the scriptures.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever use those exact three words in common discussion. How would you even use "call to repentance" in a sentence?

You made up a random phrase, searched for it, didn't find results and drew a spurious conclusion. 

There is no question that the scriptures include the commandment to call, teach, preach, advocate for, or however you want to word it, repentance. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[CV75]

11 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever use those exact three words in common discussion. How would you even use "call to repentance" in a sentence?

"I issued a call to repentance" "We got a call to repentance." "He gave a call to repentance." Etc. Get out more!  

You made up a random phrase, searched for it, didn't find results and drew a spurious conclusion. 

You are are falsely accusing!

There is no question that the scriptures include the commandment to call, teach, preach, advocate for, or however you want to word it, repentance. 

I was not asserting otherwise. Go bother someone else!

I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever use those exact three words in common discussion. How would you even use "call to repentance" in a sentence?

"I issued a call to repentance" "We got a call to repentance." "He gave a call to repentance." Etc. Get out more!  

You made up a random phrase, searched for it, didn't find results and drew a spurious conclusion. 

You are are falsely accusing!

There is no question that the scriptures include the commandment to call, teach, preach, advocate for, or however you want to word it, repentance. 

I was not asserting otherwise. Go bother someone else!

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:02 AM, Vort said:

I have never considered this teaching in exactly this light, Traveler. Thank you for giving me something important to think about.

I would like to say I have mastered this and I am the example.  But alas I am just a beginner and working on it.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:50 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

And yet Christ criticized the Pharisees to their faces. So what gives?

 

It was part of his prophetic calling (judge among the nations) to which he was specifically set apart and ordained to do.  He never did anything but that he was commanded to do so by his Father.  His commandment to his disciples was not to ever judge others (judge not that ye be not judged) unless called, ordained and commended to do so within their stewardship (examples Bishops).

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It was part of his prophetic calling (judge among the nations) to which he was specifically set apart and ordained to do.  He never did anything but that he was commanded to do so by his Father.  His commandment to his disciples was not to ever judge others (judge not that ye be not judged) unless called, ordained and commended to do so within their stewardship (examples Bishops).

 

The Traveler

Better check the JST on that one.