Polygamy in Heaven

[Blossom76]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ok Blossom, you play god for a minute.  How would you do it?

A man marries the woman of his dreams, and they live together in blissful unity for 5 years and have two infant children.  She dies tragically in a car wreck.  3 years later, he remarries you.  You are in total love with him and adore his children, and you raise the kids like your own, and you are a superb wife and mother, and they treat you as such.  Your marriage to this man lasts 50 years of blissful peace.

So, you both die peacefully in your sleep within months of each other.  You both go to heaven.  Blossom - there's the bio mom.   You don't like the answer the church gives, so write a different one.  If you were god, how would you do it?  The biological mother gets the kids you've raised and made your own, and the husband, and screw you?  She gets the kids (even though you were the only mother they ever knew), and you get the husband?  You get the kids and screw wife #1?  Or do you have some sort of other option?

I'm genuinely interested - since the LDS end to this story doesn't work for you, write a better ending here that everyone here on earth can get behind with no qualms.

You see its very different for me because you all take this as the truth, as the word of God, I'm an investigator, which means I'm looking at all the evidence and deciding if this church is true.  Very different viewpoint.  All other christian churches have a very different view on heaven and the afterlife - which doesn't contain polygamy.  The LDS church is a fringe religion within christianity, it doesn't have a very big population of christian's.

So from my view - WHAT IF,  just WHAT IF, this isn't the true church at all and I'm signing myself up to a potential eternity of misery for no good reason.

This may just be the final straw for me, its not just the polygamy thing, its all of it combined, the book of Abraham, the first vision, the fact that there was a big gap in the translation of the book of mormon because of the missing pages, you have to pay 10% and get married in a temple and learn secret handshakes to be with God, etc, etc, etc,  its too much to make excuses for or to shelf for me.  And it feels like every time I shelf something, something else comes up, I don't want to spend the rest of my faith life making excuses and trying to make things fit that don't.

I honestly think I'm done investigating.  I hope you all will still accept me on the forums in christian love, for I do still love the lord and I will follow him, but not with this Church, for me its not the true church, if it is for you then thats great, but not for me.

[Blossom76]

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, think about it.  If you believe that our souls are eternal, and you believe we continue to exist into the eternities with our personalities/memories/loves intact, then there absolutely has to be a way to deal with this stuff.  

Consider these scenarios:
- A sealed couple, deeply in love, suffers tragedy when the husband/dad dies.  The wife is in her '30's.  Is she expected to remain single and unloved the rest of her life, so she won't hurt dead hubby's feelings as they spend eternity together?
- Said wife remarries and spends 50 years with new hubby.  They have kids too.  What's the best way to handle this in the eternities?  She now has two husbands, she's loved them both and they've both loved her, and children from both marriages.

- Same scenario, but this time the wife/mom dies.  Is husband expected to remain single and unloved the rest of his life, so he won't hurt dead wife's feelings?
- Said husband remarries and spends 50 years with new wife, and fathers children with her too.  What's the best way to handle this in the eternities?  He now has two wives, he's loved them both and they've both loved him.

If you believe we stay us in the eternities, if you believe marriage is eternal, there has to be a way this is sorted out.  And whatever way it is, means all the other ways aren't the way.  Someone ends up with two eternal spouses.  Someone ends up with no eternal spouse.

Much of Christianity just figure we don't stay married, or human.  We lose whatever we have here on earth, and become angels, content to exist in a constant state of worship and adoration of God.  And our earthly loves and relationships and commitments just dissolve and are replaced by God's love.  I guess that's a "make sure nobody gets their feelings hurt" way to see the eternities.  Mormons don't believe that.

This is one of the more tenderhearted and sensitive aspects of our beliefs on eternal marriage.

All of this is based on the assumption that the sealing ritual is of God in the first place.  I'm now of the opinion that it is not, so I don't agree with it, I don't think the LDS view of heaven is right, I just don't believe it anymore, and I hope you understand that I have looked at this VERY thoroughly, I judge no one for believing in the teachings of the LDS church, so I do hope none of you judge me because as of this morning (after very heartfelt prayer) I do not believe it.  I'm sorry but I do not believe it.

[NeuroTypical]

You're welcome here, Blossom, as long as you do not violate any of the site rules.

At the end of the day, the only valid reason to become a Mormon, is you believe God wants you to.  If you don't believe that, if you haven't received a testimony that such is His plan for you, then I wouldn't become LDS.  If He does though, well, that assurance is more powerful than all the good causes for pause.

God bless you wherever you go Blossom!

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

You see its very different for me because you all take this as the truth, as the word of God, I'm an investigator, which means I'm looking at all the evidence and deciding if this church is true.  Very different viewpoint.

That doesn't really answer the question.  For what you're talking about in this thread, it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

1) You said that IF this is required for heaven, you'll say no thank you to heaven.
2) You were asked for a better idea and came up with nothing and stated essentially, "It doesn't fit my paradigm."

So, you're admitting that you can't come up with anything better.  Yet you still think this is SO wrong, you'd rather give up heaven and salvation over it.  

Let me rephrase:  You're willing to give up salvation and heaven over something you find distasteful, and you can't think of a better solution?

That is a perfect example of creating God in your own image.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

The downside is women are forced to make a choice, live in heaven with God and Jesus and accept the fact that you might have to live polygamy for eternity - or don't be with God at all.  I hardly think God would force women to accept polygamy via blackmail, and thats what that is, spiritual blackmail.  No thanks

You don't really know much about our ideas on the Celestial Kingdom, do you?  You seem to have a habit of evading answering a simple question and interjecting an irrelevant and misguided characterization in its place.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

The rest of Christianity, from what I can tell, are all over the map on this question.  Most haven't really thought about it.  As I mentioned before, much of Christianity just figure we don't stay married, or human.  We lose whatever we have here on earth, and become angels, content to exist in a constant state of worship and adoration of God.  And our earthly loves and relationships and commitments just dissolve and are replaced by God's love.  I guess that's a "make sure nobody gets their feelings hurt" way to see the eternities.  Mormons don't believe that.

When Christians think long and hard about it, and realize they just can't abide "until death do you part", well, when they come looking for a better answer, we've got one.  Our understanding on the importance and eternal nature of families?  Well, it's a reason why we continue to baptize lots and lots of converts.  But yes, it comes with some weighty implications.  Just as weighty as accepting "you won't care about not being married after you die - you'll be content to praise God and stand in his light forever".

Again, I honestly couldn't chose without God's direction.  

[person0]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

You see its very different for me because you all take this as the truth, as the word of God, I'm an investigator, which means I'm looking at all the evidence and deciding if this church is true.  Very different viewpoint.

I recognize that as a non-member you have a unique perspective, but there are active members of the Church who reject polygamy and everything associated with it, but who are otherwise faithful, and who know the Church and Book of Mormon are true.  I have family members among them.

[person0]

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

Having my husband married to another woman for all eternity bothers me.

That is a reasonable emotional response.  I would feel exactly the same if my wife were to be married to another man at the same time as me.  Although, I admittedly would not be bothered by it very much if it were only going to take place in heaven and not here on earth.  The reason is that I assume that by the time it actually happened, I would be perfected through Christ, and would be granted the knowledge and wisdom to understand it.

I wonder, would it be different if polygamy did not happen in the next life, but only happened here on earth?  Do you at least acknowledge God's blessing to Abraham, who had 3 wives, and Jacob who had two wives as legitimate and God given during mortality?  If not, what is your view about those Biblical instances?

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

If the garden of eden was the ideal way to live, there was no polygamy, god made Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve and Shirley.

That is a really good point, especially from the non-lds paradigm.  The only issue I have with that comparison, is that there are plenty of other Biblical instances of God ordained plural marriage, that I don't think the instances of monogamous marriage alone will establish that plural marriage is never good in the eyes of God.

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I don't understand why LDS women would accept this,  I certainly never will.

Not all LDS women do accept this.  When you get baptized, they don't ask you if you believe in polygamy as a requirement.  That said, one should believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and that as of right now, Russel M. Nelson is a true prophet.  Those will help in the journey, but the main thing we must accept is Christ, and our commitment to follow him.

Quote

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Matt. 7:21-23)

If Christ came to you personally and commanded to you to participate in a marriage that was uncomfortable, do you think it would assuage your fears?

Quote

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to puther away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
(Matt. 1:19-20,24)

Sometimes God asks us to do simple things, sometimes hard.  Remember the story of Job?  God let the devil take everything from him, and yet he remained faithful.  One of my favorite quotes from Joseph Smith is this:

Quote

A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.
(Lectures on Faith 6:7)

I also think of Naaman, who was kind of in the exact opposite situation.  He would have been willing to do something big, but something small made it seem false.  Now days many will do small things to follow Christ, but few will do big things:

Quote

11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
(2 Kings 5:11-13)

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

And if the church really took polygamy from the earth because God said so rather than political reasons, then surely that revelation would make it is gone from heaven too, otherwise whats the point

That is a very interesting thought.  However, I don't think God would all of a sudden stop validating something in heaven just because it is no longer being practiced on the earth.  I mean, without the LDS view, God stopped sending prophets, even with the LDS view, he stopped for a little while and then started again at a later date. I personally presume God took it from the earth because it would make it culturally easier to facilitate the promotion of the restored gospel in all the world.  Regardless, once again, we know that is was done in Biblical times.  We also believe that God forbade it during Book of Mormon times and gave a qualifier:

Quote

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
. . .
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
(Jacob 2:27,30)

God commands, we do what He commands.  We believe he commanded polygamy/plural marriage.  I believe it is and was a true principle, although I do not fully understand His reasoning for it, nor do I personally wish to participate.  However, if the Lord asks it of me, I pray that I have the faith to comply, and as of right now, I think I do.

In light of polygamy, and many of the other principles that concern you, I close with the words of Moroni:

Quote

17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire.
. . .
22 For the eternal purposes of the Lord shall roll on, until all his promises shall be fulfilled.
(Mormon 8:17,22) emphasis added

I truly hope you find peace with all of these doctrines and principles that seem frightening to you.  Especially in hopes that they will lead you to the truth that I know is found in the restored gospel.  Regardless, I pray for you and wish you the best.

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

If the garden of eden was the ideal way to live, there was no polygamy, god made Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve and Shirley. 

Works better if we make it rhyme, "If the garden of eden was the ideal way to live, there was no polygamy, god made Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve and [Genaveeve]."  All kidding aside, I will provide the following statement I made in the other thread:

"We have a choice, we can either live in fear causing over anxiety over something we can not control, or we can live in faith knowing that when we die temporal knowledge (Telestial knowledge) will not inhibit us from accepting pure and virtuous principles. We don't have the "little" devil on our shoulder telling us "bad things are good, and good things are bad."

Place your trust, place your faith, in a loving heavenly Father who has a perfect plan that he executes with perfect love. Hold onto what you have now, and do not be bothered by something that may or may not be."

If we struggle with something, true or not true, there is a loving Heavenly Father you can kneel and plead for his guidance and tutoring toward all and any truth that we need witness or comfort with.

[Grunt]

It's an interesting paradigm.  If you believe in eternal families, then you must accept the fact that families naturally have multiple partners.  The scenario @NeuroTypical laid out exists across ALL religions.   Otherwise, you believe eternal families DON'T exist, which changes the view of heaven dramatically.  We're all just up there on our own.

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

You see its very different for me because you all take this as the truth, as the word of God, I'm an investigator, which means I'm looking at all the evidence and deciding if this church is true.  Very different viewpoint.  All other christian churches have a very different view on heaven and the afterlife - which doesn't contain polygamy.  The LDS church is a fringe religion within christianity, it doesn't have a very big population of christian's.

So from my view - WHAT IF,  just WHAT IF, this isn't the true church at all and I'm signing myself up to a potential eternity of misery for no good reason.

This may just be the final straw for me, its not just the polygamy thing, its all of it combined, the book of Abraham, the first vision, the fact that there was a big gap in the translation of the book of mormon because of the missing pages, you have to pay 10% and get married in a temple and learn secret handshakes to be with God, etc, etc, etc,  its too much to make excuses for or to shelf for me.  And it feels like every time I shelf something, something else comes up, I don't want to spend the rest of my faith life making excuses and trying to make things fit that don't.

I honestly think I'm done investigating.  I hope you all will still accept me on the forums in christian love, for I do still love the lord and I will follow him, but not with this Church, for me its not the true church, if it is for you then thats great, but not for me.

Okay. I wish you well in your faith journey.

And, you are more than welcome here. It is just that I am not sure what value there would be in sticking around? You believe, based on your examination of the evidence, that the Church isn't God's church, and we, based on prayer to God and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, believe that it is God's church. Where is there room for discussion?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

1 minute ago, wenglund said:

Okay. I wish you well in your faith journey.

And, you are more than welcome here. It is just that I am not sure what value there would be in sticking around? You believe, based on your examination of the evidence, that the Church isn't God's church, and we, based on prayer to God and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, believe that it is God's church. Where is there room for discussion?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There are a lot of people from different faiths on this site, they seem to find value in being here.

[wenglund]

1 minute ago, Blossom76 said:

There are a lot of people from different faiths on this site, they seem to find value in being here.

Okay. All the best to you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That doesn't really answer the question.  For what you're talking about in this thread, it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

1) You said that IF this is required for heaven, you'll say no thank you to heaven.
2) You were asked for a better idea and came up with nothing and stated essentially, "It doesn't fit my paradigm."

So, you're admitting that you can't come up with anything better.  Yet you still think this is SO wrong, you'd rather give up heaven and salvation over it.  

Let me rephrase:  You're willing to give up salvation and heaven over something you find distasteful, and you can't think of a better solution?

That is a perfect example of creating God in your own image.

This is a bit ridiculous, you're asking me to come up with a religious belief system because I don't agree with yours?

I'm saying I don't think the LDS is the true church, I don't believe their teachings are true.  This is not the church for me.  

That doesn't automatically make me somehow responsible to 'come up with a better system' the question is ridiculous.  

I'll stay faithful in my search to find what I believe to be Christ's true church, if you like when I find it, I'll send you a copy of their doctrine and beliefs - but I"m not making up my own religion to answer your question - that's ridiculous  

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

All of this is based on the assumption that the sealing ritual is of God in the first place.  I'm now of the opinion that it is not, so I don't agree with it, ...

Just out of curiosity, do you believe you will be married in heaven to your husband? In other words, do you believe that your marriage of "until death do you part" will somehow still be in force after death?

I ask because your somewhat unfounded fear of having to share your husband in heaven may cause you to make choices that might deny you your husband in heaven.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Just out of curiosity, do you believe you will be married in heaven to your husband? In other words, do you believe that your marriage of "until death do you part" will somehow still be in force after death?

I ask because your somewhat unfounded fear of having to share your husband in heaven may cause you to make choices that might deny you your husband in heaven.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Like I have said, this decision that the LDS church is not the true church is NOT based on polygamy, this is just the straw that broke the camels back.  I am not ditching the LDS church because of polygamy or any 'fear' of sharing my husband.

I believe the doctrine taught about needing a sealing to be 'married for eternity' is not true.  I do believe we will be with our loved ones in heaven, but I don't believe it is structured how the LDS church says it is.  

I don't believe a lot of things the LDS church say are true, the book of Abraham, the first vision, the lost pages of the book of mormon, (and many more) all these things have strongly contributed to my decision, I have prayed and prayed and I have looked at the LDS perspective and information to 'refute, resolve, make peace with' very thoroughly, bottom line is I don't buy it, and that's ok.

I have learnt a lot about myself in this process, I have learnt how to connect better with God when I do pray, I feel the spirit every time I pray now and that is a wonderful thing.  

[wenglund]

7 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

This is a bit ridiculous, you're asking me to come up with a religious belief system because I don't agree with yours?

You are the one who said that it "doesn't fit my paradigm."

Do you know the meaning of the word "paradigm" when used broadly in the way you just did?" (Hint--it is a "philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind"--see HERE, or in other words, a  "worldviews (and see below), ideologies, and mindsets " or belief system--see HERE) 

@Carborendum isn't asking you to come up with a belief system. Rather, he is asking you to explain your current beliefs.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

1 minute ago, wenglund said:

You are the one who said that it "doesn't fit my paradigm."

Do you know the meaning of the word "paradigm" when used broadly in the way you just did?" (Hint--it is a "philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind"--see HERE, or in other words, a  "worldviews (and see below), ideologies, and mindsets " or belief system--see HERE) 

@Carborendum isn't asking you to come up with a belief system. Rather, he is asking you to explain your current beliefs.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

My current belief (as I have already stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER) is that I DON'T BELIEVE THE LDS CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHURCH.

That is my current belief - hope that's clear to everyone now

And I don't need an English lesson from you.  I'm not the one who can't take a hint.

[wenglund]

6 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

 I do believe we will be with our loved ones in heaven,  

This is the only part of your 4 paragraph post that comes anywhere close to answering my question ABOUT YOUR BELIEF (not to be confused with LDS beliefs), and it doesn't really do that. 

Do you have a belief about marriage in heaven? If so, then what is it? If you don't know, then feel free to say so.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

36 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

Yet you still think this is SO wrong, you'd rather give up heaven and salvation over it.  

Again, here you are assuming that the teachings of the LDS are true, that is not my viewpoint, so I'm not giving up heaven or salvation, I just don't agree with your definition of it.

[Blossom76]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

This is the only part of your 4 paragraph post that comes anywhere close to answering my question ABOUT YOUR BELIEF (not to be confused with LDS beliefs), and it doesn't really do that. 

Do you have a belief about marriage in heaven? If so, then what is it? If you don't know, then feel free to say so.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As I have already stated  I do that I think we will be with our loved ones in heaven.  I don't believe that the LDS teaching of having to be sealed in a temple for that to happen is a valid teaching. I don't think heaven will look anything like what the LDS church teaches, I don't think an earthly marriage/temple sealing will mean what the LDS church says it will mean in heaven.  I will continue to search for what I believe to be the true church of Jesus Christ.

[wenglund]

4 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

My current belief (as I have already stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER) is that I DON'T BELIEVE THE LDS CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHURCH.

That is my current belief - hope that's clear to everyone now

And I don't need an English lesson from you.  I'm not the one who can't take a hint.

I, for one, and likely everyone else as well, understood your belief about the truth of the LDS church.  It was not unclear once you made it know. Hope that is now clear to you as well.

However, we weren't asking you about that belief?  We were asking you about your own beliefs about marriage in heaven. We were asking you about YOUR "paradigm."

The fact that you got this seemingly simple and obvious difference so massively confused, tells us that you are in serious need of an English lesson.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

@wenglundI have told you my belief on that right now (a few times), you just seem to want something more complicated, perhaps it doesn't need to be complicated. Right now I don't believe the LDS teaching on eternal marriage, I do believe we will be with our loved ones in heaven, I don't think we need to go through some temple ceremony for that to happen.  I don't think heaven is structured how the LDS church says it is.

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Blossom76

[wenglund]

9 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

As I have already stated  I do that I think we will be with our loved ones in heaven.  I don't believe that the LDS teaching of having to be sealed in a temple for that to happen is a valid teaching. I don't think heaven will look anything like what the LDS church teaches, I don't think an earthly marriage/temple sealing will mean what the LDS church says it will mean in heaven.  I will continue to search for what I believe to be the true church of Jesus Christ.

Just curious. Are you typing under the influence? I am not asking to be mean. It just that there seems to be more than a little incoherence and lack of civility trying to converse with you at the moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund

[Blossom76]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Just curious. Are you typing under the influence? I am not asking to be mean. It just that there seems to be more than a little incoherence and lack of civility trying to converse with you at the moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund

You kiss your mother with that mouth?

Just curious