Lee Posted April 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Fall in love. I scanned back and I don't think you responded to my request for you to define Love. I am truly interested on what you mean by Love. What do you mean by Fall in Love? What is that to you? Well I have only fallen in love once but it was gradual, I am not talking about seeing a woman and instantly wanting to be with her. It was a deep feeling I had about my wife after I got to know her, the first time I met her there was a connection I felt like I had met her before. It wasn't instant love though it was more when I got to spend time with her and understand her heart that I knew I was in love with her. For me love is a feeling and an action. I think love is something I show to my wife and when she shows me love I get a feeling of lovingness. We had this verse from the bible at our wedding, “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.". 15 minutes ago, anatess2 said: When my husband and I got married I was devout Catholic, he was inactive LDS. I thought he'd become Catholic as he was attending church with me. We didn't have children for 4 years and I thought something was wrong with either of us. I was starting to worry. Then I got baptized in the summer, I got pregnant in the winter, I became eligible to be sealed to my husband in the temple one year after baptism, and 2 weeks later my son was born in covenant. This is my testimony - I believe God saw fit for my son to arrive at such time that he can be born in covenant. We also didn't get married in the temple because I couldn't get a recommend at that time, so we just got married in a church. We did get sealed though 3 years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2018 3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: In reply to your not liking that... Well, I don't particularly like your cavalier attitude about divorce. I don't have a cavalier attitude about divorce, I never want to get divorced! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 13, 2018 Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 20 hours ago, Lee said: I don't have a cavalier attitude about divorce, I never want to get divorced! This reads like saying: "I don't have a cavalier attitude about killing people, I never want to kill people." immediately after having just said: "If anyone looks at me cross-eyed I'm putting a bullet between their eyes!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 13, 2018 Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 21 hours ago, Lee said: Well I have only fallen in love once but it was gradual, I am not talking about seeing a woman and instantly wanting to be with her. It was a deep feeling I had about my wife after I got to know her, the first time I met her there was a connection I felt like I had met her before. It wasn't instant love though it was more when I got to spend time with her and understand her heart that I knew I was in love with her. For me love is a feeling and an action. I think love is something I show to my wife and when she shows me love I get a feeling of lovingness. We had this verse from the bible at our wedding, “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.". We also didn't get married in the temple because I couldn't get a recommend at that time, so we just got married in a church. We did get sealed though 3 years ago This is really a tangent on the topic so I understand if you don't want to delve into it... It's just a pet topic of mine. So when you said, "feel love for her or show love". Yes, love is patient, kind, etc. etc. So, anyway... all this is nebulous stuff. So, I want to put this in an example so I can put some substance on the theory. So... let's say - A guy says he fell in love with this girl so he wants to be physically intimate with her so they did the deed even when they're not married. In your opinion, does the guy love the girl really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: This reads like saying: "I don't have a cavalier attitude about killing people, I never want to kill people." immediately after having just said: "If anyone looks at me cross-eyed I'm putting a bullet between their eyes!" You are crazy bro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 2 hours ago, anatess2 said: So... let's say - A guy says he fell in love with this girl so he wants to be physically intimate with her so they did the deed even when they're not married. In your opinion, does the guy love the girl really? Yes he may love her. Sometimes when we love someone we don't always act out of love towards them but the feeling of love is still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 13, 2018 Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Lee said: You are crazy bro How so? You literally said you would leave your wife if you got bored with her or didn't find her attractive any more, then said you don't have a cavalier attitude about divorce. I used an extreme example to explain how that sounds. The fact that you say you never want to get divorced but then plan on it if such-n-such and such-n-such conditions happen comes across as pretty shallow reads as cavalier. If I ever get bored with my wife I'll do something about that to fix myself. I won't leave her. Being willing to leave a wife when it gets boring strikes me as cavalier. What does that have to do with sanity/madness? Edited April 13, 2018 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 13, 2018 Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Lee said: Yes he may love her. Sometimes when we love someone we don't always act out of love towards them but the feeling of love is still there. Okay, so are you saying that he loves her if he tried to stop himself from doing the deed but he failed? So, the sin overcame his love? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Okay, so are you saying that he loves her if he tried to stop himself from doing the deed but he failed? So, the sin overcame his love? Are you asking me in the context of people who know that premarital sex is wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 16, 2018 Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 On 4/13/2018 at 4:04 PM, Lee said: Are you asking me in the context of people who know that premarital sex is wrong? Yes. Sorry, I wasn't clear. Let's encapsulate our conversation on love within the bounds of the Saints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 On 13/04/2018 at 8:43 PM, anatess2 said: Okay, so are you saying that he loves her if he tried to stop himself from doing the deed but he failed? So, the sin overcame his love? Yes that is right. Sin can sometimes overcome love, sometimes I act out of anger to my wife and my parents but I still love them I just at the moment didn't act out of love towards them. The feeling of love is always there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 16, 2018 Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lee said: Yes that is right. Sin can sometimes overcome love, sometimes I act out of anger to my wife and my parents but I still love them I just at the moment didn't act out of love towards them. The feeling of love is always there. Okay... so you basically agree that Sin is against Love. So you basically agree that Love means getting closer to Christ - the opposite of which is Sin, going farther from Christ. So, what's the time span of this "I just at the moment didn't act out of love" is within tolerance. 1 day, 1 month, 1 year... how long before you say "this feeling of love" is not there anymore? Remember, you defined love as patient, kind, long-suffering... etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Okay... so you basically agree that Sin is against Love. So you basically agree that Love means getting closer to Christ - the opposite of which is Sin, going farther from Christ. kind of. I think that love means more than getting closer to christ, I think when you act out of love you feel closer to christ but that is just one part of love. 35 minutes ago, anatess2 said: So, what's the time span of this "I just at the moment didn't act out of love" is within tolerance. 1 day, 1 month, 1 year... how long before you say "this feeling of love" is not there anymore? Remember, you defined love as patient, kind, long-suffering... etc. etc. 1 day would be the limit, It isn't right to not act out of love for longer than that. I have never not acted out of love for more than a few hours at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 16, 2018 Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lee said: kind of. I think that love means more than getting closer to christ, I think when you act out of love you feel closer to christ but that is just one part of love. This is problematic. If Love does not bring Joy it is not Love. Christ is where Joy is found. So, if Christ is just one part of love... what's the other part? See, here's the problem - somebody engages in physical intimacy before marriage, they know it goes against Christ but they justify that it is okay because they Love each other. Love being more than Christ. This is false. Lust is not Love. This the error of the Gay community when they try to say the LDS are curtailing their freedom to Love or discriminating them against Love as they define Love as the person they want to have sex with. When Love is not rooted in Christ, then it is nothing more than a poor replica of it. Here's another example - a husband being so controlling that he wouldn't allow his wife to leave the house without him because he fears for her safety. He says he loves his wife too much to allow her freedom. Or how about the wife that allows her husband to beat her up because she loves him. There are many more examples of poor replicas of love. So, if you have an ambiguous definition of Love - "you just feel it"... then you fall into these traps of false Love. The ideal of Love - like anything else in life - is Christ's example. Christ gave the ultimate example of what Love is. 9 minutes ago, Lee said: 1 day would be the limit, It isn't right to not act out of love for longer than that. I have never not acted out of love for more than a few hours at a time. Okay, from what you said above... it might be that you didn't know you weren't acting out of Love. So, let's say your wife, in your perspective, did not act out of love. But, to her perspective she's acting out of love. 24 hours passes... what then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, anatess2 said: If Love does not bring Joy it is not Love. Christ is where Joy is found. So, if Christ is just one part of love... what's the other part? I think it is one part of love to get closer to christ. However, it is not the sole reason I act out of love towards my wife or family. I love them regardless if it brings me closer to christ, I do it to make them happy, or because I know it is what is best for them. 39 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Here's another example - a husband being so controlling that he wouldn't allow his wife to leave the house without him because he fears for her safety. He says he loves his wife too much to allow her freedom. Or how about the wife that allows her husband to beat her up because she loves him. There are many more examples of poor replicas of love. I don't believe or regard love as an excuse or reason for anything. Love isn't any kind of justification for behaviour it is a feeling and an action it may be one of many reasons why you do something but in itself it is no excuse to act in a certain way. 42 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Okay, from what you said above... it might be that you didn't know you weren't acting out of Love. So, let's say your wife, in your perspective, did not act out of love. But, to her perspective she's acting out of love. 24 hours passes... what then? We would just talk about it, understand each others perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 16, 2018 Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 41 minutes ago, Lee said: I think it is one part of love to get closer to christ. However, it is not the sole reason I act out of love towards my wife or family. I love them regardless if it brings me closer to christ, I do it to make them happy, or because I know it is what is best for them. How do you know what is best for them? How do you know it makes them happy? What if they tell you kicking puppies is what makes them happy? Will you kick the puppy? 41 minutes ago, Lee said: We would just talk about it, understand each others perspective. Okay, you told me you will leave somebody who doesn't love you. How do you know she doesn't love you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, anatess2 said: How do you know what is best for them? How do you know it makes them happy? What if they tell you kicking puppies is what makes them happy? Will you kick the puppy? I didn't mean things like that. For example, I don't particularly want to drive 2 hours every Saturday to go and see my parents, I would much rather play golf or spend time with my wife but I do it because it makes my parents happy to see me and I want to make them happy because I love them. I am not doing it to get closer to christ it is out of love for them. 7 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Okay, you told me you will leave somebody who doesn't love you. How do you know she doesn't love you? If she told me she doesn't love me. Honestly, I would leave someone who did love me if I couldn't make them happy anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted April 16, 2018 Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lee said: I didn't mean things like that. For example, I don't particularly want to drive 2 hours every Saturday to go and see my parents, I would much rather play golf or spend time with my wife but I do it because it makes my parents happy to see me and I want to make them happy because I love them. I am not doing it to get closer to christ it is out of love for them. If you ask me, things like these stem from the Light of Christ within us that we instinctively know even as we don't know where it stems from. But, let's just set that aside for a moment. That's the thing though... I still don't really get a clear picture of what you mean by, "because you love them". What's the difference between somebody who says "I visit my mother because it makes her happy and I love her" versus "I kick the puppy because it makes her happy and I love her". 2 hours ago, Lee said: If she told me she doesn't love me. Honestly, I would leave someone who did love me if I couldn't make them happy anymore. So, you think that if she tells you she doesn't love you then you know she's happy away from you? What's the difference between that and her saying, "I don't love you because you don't love me" when you know you love her (because why else wouldn't she not love you anymore?). See, this is the thing... all these things have zero foundation on anything. Happy, Love - the way these things are talked about just doesn't mean much when it is all just "a feeling" and not something more substantial rooted on certain principles. After all, people do bad things - like adultery or porn or get drunk or do drugs - because they think it makes them happy. Edited April 16, 2018 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2018 55 minutes ago, anatess2 said: If you ask me, things like these stem from the Light of Christ within us that we instinctively know even as we don't know where it stems from. Maybe I am not sure. 56 minutes ago, anatess2 said: So, you think that if she tells you she doesn't love you then you know she's happy away from you? What's the difference between that and her saying, "I don't love you because you don't love me" when you know you love her (because why else wouldn't she not love you anymore?). I just want her to be happy that is all, I wouldn't make her stay with me even if I loved her. If we were driving each other crazy then she is free to leave even if love is there. If she wanted to stay with me and try to be happy then obviously I wouldn't say no. If she feels I don't love her then I have failed as a husband and it is no surprise she doesn't love me. 1 hour ago, anatess2 said: See, this is the thing... all these things have zero foundation on anything. Happy, Love - the way these things are talked about just doesn't mean much when it is all just "a feeling" and not something more substantial rooted on certain principles. After all, people do bad things - like adultery or porn or get drunk or do drugs - because they think it makes them happy. What is happiness if it isn't a feeling? It is my sole goal in life to be happy, I even tried some of the things you mention to be happy and it worked for sure, but it is just momentary happiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 As it turns out this thread was a waste of time, my wife is 4 months pregnant so I guess now I know the right time. Just_A_Guy and Jane_Doe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Lee said: As it turns out this thread was a waste of time, my wife is 4 months pregnant so I guess now I know the right time. 4 months already? Wow! You having a boy or a girl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: 4 months already? Wow! You having a boy or a girl? Yeah my wife didn't realise because she has been super busy and stressed. We wouldn't even know but she fainted last week and I took her to the hospital and the doctor told us she was pregnant. My wife didn't want to find out the gender but I have my fingers crossed for a boy. Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Lee said: Yeah my wife didn't realise because she has been super busy and stressed. We wouldn't even know but she fainted last week and I took her to the hospital and the doctor told us she was pregnant. My wife didn't want to find out the gender but I have my fingers crossed for a boy. Lol! Yeah, life gets busy and hectic-- I totally get that. Well, I'm very excited for you! Let us know if you (or your wife) have any questions on pregnancy, parenting, or any of that other random stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Lol! Yeah, life gets busy and hectic-- I totally get that. Well, I'm very excited for you! Let us know if you (or your wife) have any questions on pregnancy, parenting, or any of that other random stuff. I have actually been in the delivery room before when my sister-in-law gave birth. We have one big question. How do you tell your current children that you will have a baby? Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 28, 2018 Report Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Lee said: I have actually been in the delivery room before when my sister-in-law gave birth. We have one big question. How do you tell your current children that you will have a baby? Your nephew is ~11? In that case, you can just tell him straight up like you would an adult. I recently told my Achievement Day girls I was expecting and they understood just fine. It was a bit tricker with my 4 y.o. She somewhat (in theory, kind-of-sort-of-not-really) got the fact that she was going to be a big sister and there was a baby "hiding" in mommy's tummy so we had to be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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