Missionary Numbers - stats, ugh.

[BJ64]

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

...what's more troubling maybe is that they don't blindly trust authority anymore...

Joseph F. Smith said on September 3, 1892,

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you knowing that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Joseph F. Smith said on September 3, 1892,

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you knowing that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil.

 

You need to tell the young people that, not me. I'm pro gay marriage though. I've thought that way back in high school, ironically! 

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe young people are more obedient than their rapscallion elders. Time will tell. But right now, if I was a traditionalist on the issue, I'd be very worried. About many things. 

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Joseph F. Smith said on September 3, 1892,

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you knowing that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil.

 

I think what @MormonGator was getting at us that many of us today feel like we can’t believe something unless it is proven 100% before they make any action.

I have been a member of the church my whole life and I feel like I’m pretty quick to ask why and find out the doctrine behind commandments and decisions. But if a prophet were to command us tomorrow to say... stop snapping our fingers, I would FIRST stop snapping my fingers and THEN figure out why. My generation does the opposite. Won’t act until they understand why and agree with it.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Fether

[BJ64]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You need to tell the young people that, not me. I'm pro gay marriage though. I've thought that way back in high school, ironically! 

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe young people are more obedient than their rapscallion elders. Time will tell. But right now, if I was a traditionalist on the issue, I'd be very worried. About many things. 

In your last post I thought you were advocating “blind trust”

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, BJ64 said:

In your last post I thought you were advocating “blind trust”

Nope. 

[BJ64]

16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

duplicate Post deleted

Edited May 6, 2018 by BJ64

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

I think what @MormonGator was getting at us that many of us today feel like we can’t believe something unless it is proven 100% 

Yup. We live in a very skeptical and cynical time. 

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

More and more young people have no problem with gay marriage

Truly a tragedy, as when people have no problem with elective abortion or slavery or forcible rape.

20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

and what's more troubling maybe is that they don't blindly trust authority anymore.

I have heard this throughout my lifetime. I call shenanigans. Today's youth and young adults blindly trust authority at a greater rate than perhaps any time within the past ten generations. Their "authority", of course, is the leftist dogma promoted on college campuses and by Hollywood. They flock to it, mindlessly, as moths to a flame. It's a wonder (and a horror) to behold.

The openly presentist idea underlying this belief is that previous generations were mindless sheep following the herd, and that only recently have people found the inner moral strength to break free of oppressive thought patterns from the past and manfully carved out the ability to create a Brave New World. The fact that this is pretty much opposite to the truth makes this belief not just horrific, but hilarious.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, BJ64 said:

In your last post I thought you were advocating “blind trust”

Blind trust can be synonymous to the spiritual gift of believing the testimony of others. It is a stepping stone to the spiritual gift of having a powerful testimony.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have heard this throughout my lifetime. I call shenanigans. Today's youth and young adults blindly trust authority at a greater rate than perhaps any time within the past ten generations. Their "authority", of course, is the leftist dogma promoted on college campuses and by Hollywood.

Slow down Sparky. 

Just because someone doesn't agree with religious authority hardly means that they are deluded by "leftist dogma", "college campuses" or "Hollywood". In fact, given that fewer and fewer people attend movies these days, the influence of Hollywood is fading rapidly.  

Edited May 6, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Slow down Sparky. 

Just because someone doesn't agree with religious authority hardly means that they are deluded by "leftist dogma", "college campuses" or "Hollywood". In fact, given that fewer and fewer people attend movies these days, the influence of Hollywood is fading rapidly.  

You said "authority", not "religious authority". I agree that today's youth and young adults are less religious than at any time in past memory. But they are hardly shy of bowing and scraping to authority -- just not religious authority. They worship at the altar of political correctness. They are the opposite of the pretended goal of the '60s "rebels": Free thought.

[BJ64]

27 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

More and more young people have no problem with gay marriage and what’s more troubling maybe is that they don’t blindly trust authority anymore. It happened to the Catholic church, it might (key word, might) happen to Mormonism. 

That statement makes it sound like you are troubled that young people don’t blindly trust authority any more. 

I guess I was mistaken. 

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

 They worship at the altar of political correctness.

I agree in part. Hence why comedians are always getting in trouble if they tell an unpc joke. The latest Simpsons controversy shows how thin skinned we've become. Than again I know a TON of thin skinned and fragile people who go into cardiac arrest if anyone says something about their religion, college football team, favorite band....

9 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I guess I was mistaken. 

Partially. I'm disturbed that some people want to force a baker into baking a cake for a gay marriage, that's for sure. So I'm all for religious freedom. But I've always distrusted authority too, so I can't really say anything about the younger generation doing it. 

[zil]

50 minutes ago, Vort said:

moths to a flame

Man walks into a dentist's office and says, "I'm a moth."

Dentist replies, "You should see a psychiatrist, not me."

Man says, "I am seeing a psychiatrist."

Dentist asks, "Then why are you here?"

"I saw your light was on."

[wenglund]

38 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have heard this throughout my lifetime. I call shenanigans. Today's youth and young adults blindly trust authority at a greater rate than perhaps any time within the past ten generations. Their "authority", of course, is the leftist dogma promoted on college campuses and by Hollywood. They flock to it, mindlessly, as moths to a flame. It's a wonder (and a horror) to behold.

Yes, the counter-culture of the past has become the dominant culture today, and the anti-establishment people have become the establishment. Those who used to advocate for free speech and open minds and diversity of thought, are now the ones fighting against these things. The previous skeptics have since morphed into echo chambers and PC star chambers

What I find really sad isn't so much the seeming blind trust of authority, but the ease by which people are manipulated--increasingly over the last several decades, critical thinking has been virtually drowned by a deluge of emotional appeal., much of which is a ruse.

This is no more true than with the previous wave of the gay movement, in which the generally repellent  notion of government promotion and cultural aggrandizement of sodomy, was slickly packaged as loving sympathy for alleged victims, and this to ultimately amass more power into the hands of a few elites who could really care less about gays--not unlike with the last wave of the civil rights and women's movements, as well as what is now under way in the new LGBTQ... movement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BJ64]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes, the counter-culture of the past has become the dominant culture today, and the anti-establishment people have become the establishment. Those who used to advocate for free speech and open minds and diversity of thought, are now the ones fighting against these things. The previous skeptics have since morphed into echo chambers and PC star chambers

What I find really sad isn't so much the seeming blind trust of authority, but the ease by which people are manipulated--increasingly over the last several decades, critical thinking has been virtually drowned by a deluge of emotional appeal., much of which is a ruse.

This is no more true than with the previous wave of the gay movement, in which the generally repellent  notion of government promotion and cultural aggrandizement of sodomy, was slickly packaged as loving sympathy for alleged victims, and this to ultimately amass more power into the hands of a few elites who could really care less about gays--not unlike with the last wave of the civil rights and women's movements, as well as what is now under way in the new LGBTQ... movement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I’m afraid that critical thinking is not encouraged within the Church either. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, BJ64 said:

I’m afraid that critical thinking is not encouraged within the Church either. 

What do you mean? Curious, not a challenge. 

[BJ64]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What do you mean? Curious, not a challenge. 

Sometimes I feel there are those in the church who would prefer you didn’t do your own thinking. That blind obedience is preferred. 

Im not speaking of anyone in particular, just an attitude I have observed in some. 

[wenglund]

Given that we believe in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law (12th Article of faith), and given that "same-sex" marriage is now the law of the land, this adds a challenging new meaning to the question of "do you support gay marriage?" 

If I am asked, I answer that I recognize the state's right now to promote sodomy, though I believe it will prove itself out to be the least intelligent and extra Constitutional case law in U.S. judicial history. 

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[wenglund]

12 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I’m afraid that critical thinking is not encouraged within the Church either. 

I think your fear is wildly misplaced, though perhaps a genuine self-reflection .

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[NeuroTypical]

7 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Sometimes I feel there are those in the church who would prefer...

Not trying to be rude, but who cares what someone thinks?  Why are you mentioning that there are those who think things?  What sort of point do you think it supports?

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Not trying to be rude, but who cares what someone thinks?  

In reality, most of us care what people think of us, yes, including you reading this (generic). We all want to be liked and respected, to some degree. Usually the person who says "I don't care what others think of me" is either lying, or is such a jerk they've alienated everyone around them in some way and have no choice but to say this. 

I speak from personal experience. I used to be one of those hip and cool people who said "I don't care what others think of me." I was lying of course-if I really didn't care, I wouldn't have said it. 

:: gets off soapbox :: 

[BJ64]

32 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Not trying to be rude, but who cares what someone thinks?  

Is this to say you don’t care what anyone thinks? You don’t care what our prophet thinks? 

Everyone on here is saying what they think.

Edited May 7, 2018 by BJ64

[lostinwater]

37 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Sometimes I feel there are those in the church who would prefer you didn’t do your own thinking. That blind obedience is preferred. 

 Im not speaking of anyone in particular, just an attitude I have observed in some. 

Thanks.

Hard one.  i feel this way at times, too.  

i guess all of us sacrifice some amount of reason on the altar of our beliefs (i know i do).  

Where blessed faith ends and where persistent schizophrenic delusion begin is, i guess, largely a matter of debate - at least for now.  Of course, every sect (heck, every person inside every sect) claims that it's not a matter of debate and that they are undeniably correct.

[wenglund]

2 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Of course, every sect (heck, every person inside every sect) claims that it's not a matter of debate and that they are undeniably correct.

Actually, there is at least one sect that has the fundamental belief that: 

Quote

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-