Guns and Stuff.

[2ndRateMind]

Quote

Outlawing guns is a feel-good measure at best, and doesn't make people safer.

I don't think that is exactly right. The last school shooting we had in the UK was Dunblane, 1996.

The US has had 22 such school shootings this year so far, alone.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited May 18, 2018 by 2ndRateMind

[person0]

18 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Hmmm. Just seems to me that if the American nation loved it's children more than it's guns, it would already have implemented the effective protection of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

In a country where our founding values include the right and the ability of the people to overthrow a corrupt and abusive government, it is in the interest of the people to protect that right in order to protect themselves and especially future generations from tyranny.  While there are things that can be done to prevent the mentally ill from having guns, there is nothing that can be done to prevent the mentally ill and evil people in this world from existing.  Even if we take your clearly loaded statement at face value, what we love most is our freedom.

In the Book of Mormon, there was a group of Christian converts who forsook their weapons and vowed never to use them again.  What did they do when the day came that they needed to defend themselves?  First, they considered breaking their oath with God, but then as an alternative, they chose to send their children into battle.  In their circumstance the Lord protected them so that none of the children died, however, every single child was greatly wounded.  The parents trusted in the Lord, and would have done so even if their children had died.  Freedom is more important than life; it is worth dying for.  Freedom is the reason we send soldiers into battle to defend ourselves.   They go to battle in order to protect our freedom, if life were more important than freedom, we would surrender to our enemies and be their slaves.

The Constitution protects our freedoms in relation to our own government in the same way our military protects our freedom in relation to foreign entities who would seek to destroy it.  Eliminating gun ownership rights would ultimately pave the way to further reduction in freedom by those who seek to oppress.  It is that simple.  And yes, I would rather live in a country where there is a very small statistical chance (.28%) of dying by an assault with a firearm, than in a country where I am not allowed to have one to protect myself, my family, and my fellow men.  That is an easy, decision for me.

[unixknight]

Just now, 2ndRateMind said:

I don't think that is exactly right. The last school shooting we had in the UK was Hungerford, 1996.

The US has had 22 such school shootings this year so far, alone.

Best wishes, 2RM.

So what?

What about the truck attacks last year?  Or the bombings earlier this year?  

Your gun laws didn't prevent violence.  Just changed the weapons used.

[2ndRateMind]

Yes. I have a few points to make in respect of the 2nd Amendment, but will defer them until tomorrow, as I have chores to do tonight.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Grunt]

11 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

What are her current Thorts on this possibility?

If she's waiting for bribes, send me a PayPal address.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, 2ndRateMind said:

But it seems that Americans love their guns rather more than they love other people's children

Oh, yeah, another non-critical, non-confrontational, non-judgmental, non-hyperbolic post from our favorite non-hypocrite.

No, we love the idea of liberty for all and hold it as more important than giving into our whims of the day.  America was founded on the idea that it would be better to die on our feet than live on our knees.

2 hours ago, 2ndRateMind said:

What is the position on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on sensible weapon reforms, such as extensive criminal and mental health background checks, the limitation on types of firearms civilians may legally own, etc?

I have not heard of an "official position" on these measures.  But what reforms are you talking about? 

On your side of the pond, you may not realize it, but we already have all the measures that people are screaming for  including the ones you've mentioned.  Most of the people who got their guns for mass shootings, obtained them illegally anyway.  So, passing new laws won't change anything since what they did was already illegal. 

If you provide a sound measure which will 

1) Actually be effective in reducing future shootings. &
2) Something that isn't already on the books

Then let's talk.  We'd love to hear it.  Until then, just admit that you don' t know anything about the topic.

Best Wishes...

Edited May 18, 2018 by Guest

[unixknight]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

No, we love the idea of liberty for all as more important than giving into our whims of the day.  America was founded on the idea that it would be better to die on our feet than live on our knees.

This.  

I support gun rights BECAUSE I have kids.  I want them to be able to live free, with the means to defend themselves.  Especially my daughters.

[2ndRateMind]

9 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So what?

What about the truck attacks last year?  Or the bombings earlier this year?  

Your gun laws didn't prevent violence.  Just changed the weapons used.

Your point would be more valid if the overall murder rates were comparable. But they are an order of magnitude apart.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Your point would be more valid if the overall murder rates were comparable. But they are an order of magnitude apart.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Five times is not an order of magnitude.

And again, so what?  A high murder rate indicates social problems which we obviously have.  That's not going to go away if guns get banned.

[Lost Boy]

31 minutes ago, unixknight said:

But it's not subsidiary, if your actual intent is to reduce homicides, and not simply focus on guns.   Take a gun away from someone who wants to kill and they aren't going to just give up and watch TV instead.  They'll just find another way, like a knife, a bomb or a truck.

Only now, in a gun-free utopia, the victims do not have the means to defend themselves.

And you can kill even more with a truck, as recently happened in several places, including London.  Or a bomb, or sarin gas.  

Outlawing guns is a feel-good measure at best, and doesn't make people safer.  Ever notice that most of these mass shootings occur in "gun-free zones?"

don't forget how many you can kill with an airliner....

[unixknight]

Just for giggles I looked up gun bans in various places to see the effect on the violent crime rate.  In every case, the crime rate went UP. 

The only thing that seems to have had the effect of lowering crime is more police.

Source: Link

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Your point would be more valid if the overall murder rates were comparable. But they are an order of magnitude apart.

Best wishes, 2RM.

It becomes alot more valid when you take the USA number on gun deaths and break it down by states and cities...  And then compare the laws of those states and cities.  When you do you find that by a large magnitude the gun deaths in the USA are directly related to the the strictness of the Gun Laws.  Take for example Chicago... It has some of the highest gun deaths of anywhere...  It also is basically gun banned by the local laws.

If people were really serious stopping gun deaths in the USA and looked at the facts...  They would see that the easier the law makes it for the normal people to carry guns the safer it becomes.   But such a finding is rejected because safely is not what is really wanted... What is really wanted is gun removal.

[unixknight]

Just now, estradling75 said:

If people were really serious stopping gun deaths in the USA and looked at the facts...  They would see that the easier the law makes it for the normal people to carry guns the safer it becomes.   But such a finding is rejected because safely is not what is really wanted... What is really wanted is gun removal.

This.

And that's why we hear people peddling "common sense" or "sensible" gun laws.  It's a term that means different things to different people*.  Nobody is supposed to disagree with common sense, right?

Well, my common sense tells me to look at the facts.  I have, and I support the Second Amendment.

*Just like "social justice."

[zil]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Annnnnnd another troll thread.  We seem to have an influx lately.

Sigh.  I was really hoping no one would reply.  It would have been so simple, and peaceful.  Alas.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Just for giggles I looked up gun bans in various places to see the effect on the violent crime rate.  In every case, the crime rate went UP. 

The only thing that seems to have had the effect of lowering crime is more police.

Source: Link

And that's really the bottom line when a Brit is telling an American that we should get rid of guns.  They don't really know what the principles of freedom really are.  They live in a police state and don't even realize it.  If they reduced the number of police to the ratios we have in the US, it wouldn't matter how many gun laws and outright bans there would be.  There would be no statistically significant difference in gun-related homicides than before the ban.  And I'd daresay it would be higher.

Look at what they have here:  A 78 y.o. homeowner was arrested for defending his home from burglars.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/04/suspected-burglar-dies-tussle-pensioner-78/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/04/man-arrested-fatal-stabbing-suspected-burglar-london

Halfway down the Telegraph link, it tells of another incident of a homeowner arrested for defending his home.  I also recall a woman who simply brandished a kitchen knife to scare a burglar away.  He called the police on her and she got arrested.

But hypocrites wouldn't understand why that is wrong.

Best Wishes...

Edited May 18, 2018 by Guest

[Fether]

1 hour ago, 2ndRateMind said:

I don't think that is exactly right. The last school shooting we had in the UK was Dunblane, 1996.

 

Ya but you and every other country that bans guns has a major knife problem.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-knife-crime-statistics-barking-ruislip-hackney-latest/

I feel like monthly I hear about some mass stabbing in China or Europe.

If you Europeans really loved your kids and your citizens, you would get rid of your knives

Edited May 18, 2018 by Fether

[unixknight]

Just now, Carborendum said:

And that's really the bottom line when a Brit is telling an American that we should get rid of guns.  They don't really know what the principles of freedom really are.  They live in a police state and don't even realize it.

That's so true.  They have no codified free speech either.  

UK cops threaten arrests over mocking social media

Man arrested and convicted of offensive joke

Too bad they don't have the ability to protect themselves against an increasingly tyrranical government.  

Still feel safe over there?

 

[unixknight]

5 minutes ago, Fether said:

Ya but you and every other country that bans guns has a major knife problem.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-knife-crime-statistics-barking-ruislip-hackney-latest/

I feel like monthly I hear about some mass stabbing in China or Europe.

Don't worry.  All the common sense knife control laws will fix that right up...

[2ndRateMind]

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

I looked at the article and it lists 0.92/100k for the UK and 4.8/100K for the US.  The US has 5 x more homicides,  

You are quite right. I must have misread the table. Well, that's the advantage of citing sources: the truth will out!

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, 2ndRateMind said:

I don't think that is exactly right. The last school shooting we had in the UK was Dunblane, 1996.

 

 

So the 2010 Cumbria shooting doesn't count? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings / https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/02/cumbria-shootings-slaughter-countryside-derrick-bird

If you guys love your people so much, why don't you get rid of YOUR bombs and guns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Fether

[Lost Boy]

22 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It becomes alot more valid when you take the USA number on gun deaths and break it down by states and cities...  And then compare the laws of those states and cities.  When you do you find that by a large magnitude the gun deaths in the USA are directly related to the the strictness of the Gun Laws.  Take for example Chicago... It has some of the highest gun deaths of anywhere...  It also is basically gun banned by the local laws.

If people were really serious stopping gun deaths in the USA and looked at the facts...  They would see that the easier the law makes it for the normal people to carry guns the safer it becomes.   But such a finding is rejected because safely is not what is really wanted... What is really wanted is gun removal.

I don't buy that argument.  Strict gun laws don't result in higher homicide.  It is really the culture that drives the homicide rate.  The areas of Chicago that have the high gun rates have the lowest education, highest unemployment, highest rate of single mothers, etc..  It breeds a state of lawlessness and hopelessness.   Without hope, you are far more likely to commit a crime that you will some day regret.  

The real answer is fixing our inner cities and reducing poverty, increasing the middle class, reducing racism.  Over half of inmates never graduated high school.  That is huge.  Society is failing itself by not providing better education.  If you are not familiar with the Finnish school system, I would google it and learn about it.  Several decades back they reformed their school system.  They reduced their class size significantly.  They have the same teacher teach the same kids year after year allowing the teacher to really get to know each child and specifically help each child.  Our schools don't focus on the individual student.  They have a teacher for a year and then are lost to the next one.  

If you can graduate our students with hope of a bright future, the chance of them turning to crime greatly diminishes.  Homicides would significantly drop, people wanting guns would significantly drop.  The need for law enforcement, too would drop.  Education is the key.  More guns is not.   Please understand that I am not anti-gun.  I don't care if you have a gun...  I just don't think they are the solution.

[unixknight]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

So the 2010 Cumbria shooting doesn't count? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings / https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/02/cumbria-shootings-slaughter-countryside-derrick-bird

If you guys love your people so much, why don't you get rid of YOUR bombs and guns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

 

Obviously what they need are some common sense truck control laws and common sense bomb control laws.

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't buy that argument.  Strict gun laws don't result in higher homicide.  It is really the culture that drives the homicide rate.  The areas of Chicago that have the high gun rates have the lowest education, highest unemployment, highest rate of single mothers, etc..  It breeds a state of lawlessness and hopelessness.   Without hope, you are far more likely to commit a crime that you will some day regret.  

The real answer is fixing our inner cities and reducing poverty, increasing the middle class, reducing racism.  Over half of inmates never graduated high school.  That is huge.  Society is failing itself by not providing better education.  If you are not familiar with the Finnish school system, I would google it and learn about it.  Several decades back they reformed their school system.  They reduced their class size significantly.  They have the same teacher teach the same kids year after year allowing the teacher to really get to know each child and specifically help each child.  Our schools don't focus on the individual student.  They have a teacher for a year and then are lost to the next one.  

If you can graduate our students with hope of a bright future, the chance of them turning to crime greatly diminishes.  Homicides would significantly drop, people wanting guns would significantly drop.  The need for law enforcement, too would drop.  Education is the key.  More guns is not.   Please understand that I am not anti-gun.  I don't care if you have a gun...  I just don't think they are the solution.

I have no problem with that answer...  I was focused on challenging the idea that Gun laws will fix the problem..  To that end if we look for facts by  compare the rate of gun deaths to laws.... An inverse relationship is the factual answer.  Clearly disproving the notion

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't buy that argument.  Strict gun laws don't result in higher homicide.  It is really the culture that drives the homicide rate.  The areas of Chicago that have the high gun rates have the lowest education, highest unemployment, highest rate of single mothers, etc..  It breeds a state of lawlessness and hopelessness.   Without hope, you are far more likely to commit a crime that you will some day regret. 

True, but the point is that gun control laws aren't the thing that will prevent violent crime.

3 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

The real answer is fixing our inner cities and reducing poverty, increasing the middle class, reducing racism.  Over half of inmates never graduated high school.  That is huge.  Society is failing itself by not providing better education. 

And why didn't those inmates graduate?  

Because they chose to drop out.  The problem is very, very complex.  Improving schools would help, but it won't make any difference if the students won't show up.

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Obviously what they need are some common sense truck control laws and common sense bomb control laws.

There are still shootings there too,Obviously they haven’t enacted any gun control laws either. Those hypocrites!