Church responds to man on hunger strike

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

When you spoke up during your interview and told the Stake President that you found his question offensive, what was his response?

I only asked him why he asked the question I did not tell him I found it offensive.

[NeedleinA]

28 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I only asked him why he asked the question I did not tell him I found it offensive.

If you were offended, why didn't you say something then? Sounds like a missed learning moment for you. This would have at least extended him the courtesy to potentially explain things more in-depth rather than complain about the man 3 years later. Fair?

[BJ64]

13 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

If you were offended, why didn't you say something then? Sounds like a missed learning moment for you. This would have at least extended him the courtesy to potentially explain things more in-depth rather than complain about the man 3 years later. Fair?

I said that I thought the question was offensive I did not say that I was offended by it.

People say offensive things all the time that does not mean you have to be offended.

[Overwatch]

11 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

I masturbated on my mission.  I was a sinner.  I lied to my family to go on a mission.  I lied to my bishop.  I  took out my endowments  while nursing a pornography and masturbation addiction.  This problem haunted my missionary work.  It didn't disappear on my mission (but I sure believed it would! If I could just get out there things would change!) and it took serious, life-changing effort for years after my mission to find healing from this damaging behavior and now, I feel like a completely different person.  I have never been happier.  I never believed people could change from such harrowing, haunting behavior.  Part of repentance is admitting fault and turning to the Lord to find healing from problems. If people can't admit where they have sinned, that is pride, that is not repentance.

 

An army of law of chastity breaking missionaries isn't a solution to anything.  Neither is lowering the standards of the church to make people feel less bad about engaging in sinful behavior.  Do you think the law of chastity is a lie or just a suggestion?  Do you not believe in it?  I just don't understand what you want.  Worthiness interviews should just be tossed aside and we just need to hug each other as we look at porn and masturbate why telling the world we believe in this law of chastity thing but don't feel bad if you can't live it?  God has given us rules and we have seen in scripture it is legitimately blasphemous and damaging to God's church to alter the rules and to preach "easier laws" over what God wants us to follow.  Whenever the church got out of line in the Book of Mormon's narrative, God stretched out his hand to try and help people see they had gone off the mark (well until the Jaredites and Nephites had pushed things too far).  I am saddened and honestly discouraged so many members take the law of chastity and repentance so lightly, but this is the Lord's church and I have faith we will be called to repentance

Oh my, I just saw this. This is not the norm. I would have died if I masturbated on the mission. The majority of the young men that worked in the service with me held their virtue strong. Their countenances were bright and they worked very hard. There were a couple of people who struggled and we all knew... I kind of feel like you think your case is the norm with faithful missionaries 

[FoolsMock]

15 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

Oh my, I just saw this. This is not the norm. I would have died if I masturbated on the mission. The majority of the young men that worked in the service with me held their virtue strong. Their countenances were bright and they worked very hard. There were a couple of people who struggled and we all knew... I kind of feel like you think your case is the norm with faithful missionaries 

How did you pull that from what I said?  It's not the norm.  I did the wrong thing and we shouldn't lower the standards to get addicts out in the mission field.  How did you possibly pull this from what I said?  You jumped into a discussion where another user was advocating a current member of the seventy says masturbation isn't wrong and another user is telling me that referring to people who break the law of chastity as unworthy to serve a mission is mean to them.  And my post, clearly misunderstanding my post, this is what you pull from the conversation?

Edited August 31, 2018 by FoolsMock

[Overwatch]

2 minutes ago, FoolsMock said:

How did you pull that from what I said?  It's not the norm.  I did the wrong thing and we shouldn't lower the standards to get addicts out in the mission field.  How did you possibly pull this from what I said?

You are talking about not sending armies of masturbators out in the mission field. About the church not lowering the standard. I would like to think, that world wide, the majority of youngmen in the church aren't addicted to abusing the powers of creation. I really think this is a non issue. I feel like the church handles it well. Like I wrote in my post my first time in interview with a certain stake president he asked "when was the last time you masturbated" I found it annoying but I was able to respond confidently and we moved on with the rest of the interview. There really is no need for a beat your meat police. Simple yes or no and frequency should tell the whole story.

[Guest MormonGator]

12 hours ago, lostinwater said:

 

Assuming he is excommunicated (and i can't imagine he won't be) - this is going to make for quite the headline, especially given the recent goings-on in the Catholic church.

He'll be excommunicated, no doubt. It's already made the New York Times! A family member who reads the Times emailed me the story (though of course I already heard about him). 

Most people ignore Mormonism. No, not an insult-but most people who aren't Mormons don't care what happens in the church. It's interesting when the church gets mainstream media attention. 

[NeedleinA]

25 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I said that I thought the question was offensive I did not say that I was offended by it.

People say offensive things all the time that does not mean you have to be offended.

So...the Stake President's question was intended to offend, but you didn't allow that to happen to you? Is this the take away from you sharing his non-offending offensive question?

[FoolsMock]

15 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

You are talking about not sending armies of masturbators out in the mission field. About the church not lowering the standard. I would like to think, that world wide, the majority of youngmen in the church aren't addicted to abusing the powers of creation. I really think this is a non issue. I feel like the church handles it well. Like I wrote in my post my first time in interview with a certain stake president he asked "when was the last time you masturbated" I found it annoying but I was able to respond confidently and we moved on with the rest of the interview. There really is no need for a beat your meat police. Simple yes or no and frequency should tell the whole story.

YEAH IN RESPONSE TO ANOTHER USER IMPLYING THE REASON MISSION NUMBERS ARE LOW IS BECAUSE STAKE PRESIDENTS AREN"T LETTING THIS HAPPEN.  If you aren't going to be aware of what the conversation contains, then don't pick one remark, isolate it from it's context and frame it in an inaccurate way.  You clearly have no grasp on what the back and forth between me and other users were, so unless you wanted to be up to speed on the conversation, you shouldn't have jumped in with a mean remark  completely twisting what I said

[Overwatch]

Just now, FoolsMock said:

YEAH IN RESPONSE TO ANOTHER USER IMPLYING THE REASON MISSION NUMBERS ARE LOW IS BECAUSE STAKE PRESIDENTS AREN"T LETTING THIS HAPPEN.  If you aren't going to be aware of what the conversation contains, then don't pick one remark, isolate it from it's context and frame it in an inaccurate way.  You clearly have no grasp on what the back and forth between me and other users were, so unless you wanted to be up to speed on the conversation, you shouldn't have jumped in with a mean remark  completely twisting what I said

Calm down bro. Your masturbation confessionals might have thrown me off. If I took you out of context then you get an apology if not then just realize i think the church is doing fine in this area

[FoolsMock]

8 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

Calm down bro. Your masturbation confessionals might have thrown me off. If I took you out of context then you get an apology if not then just realize i think the church is doing fine in this area

I just reported you for twisting my testimony I shared in response to multiple users saying there is no doctrinal basis for masturbation being part of the law of chastity.  You didn't say anything about multiple users here defending the act as not breaking the law in the conversation you pulled and twisted my remarks from.  I was speaking up for the law of chastity to others who were preaching philosophies of man and doctrine against the standard the Lord has set for his church.  You twisted my words.  You didn't know what you were talking about. Enjoy your ban.

Edited August 31, 2018 by FoolsMock

[Overwatch]

Just now, FoolsMock said:

I just reported you for twisting my testimony I shared in response to multiple users saying there is no doctrinal basis for masturbation being part of the law of chastity.  You didn't say anything about multiple users here defending the act as not breaking the law.  I was speaking up for the law of chastity.  You twisted my words.  Enjoy your ban.

Judge and jury I see XD Thank goodness this forum has excellent moderators.

[BJ64]

40 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

So...the Stake President's question was intended to offend, but you didn't allow that to happen to you? Is this the take away from you sharing his non-offending offensive question?

I did not say that he intended offense. Most people who say offensive things do not intend offense. 

If person A asked person B why he is fat most people including person B would think that was an offensive question but that does not mean that person A intended offense nor does that mean person B would take offense. 

[Overwatch]

So I went back and traced my steps to what led me to my comments 

13 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

I'm inferring too many members of the church are addicts to masturbation and this has been a case for decades and the body of the church has been weakened by this "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, everyone does this, it isn't a big deal" attitude perpetuated quietly/secretly (the Book of Mormon has some wonderful lessons on what evilness done in darkness does to organizations and to God's church in times past) by misguided leaders and members and it has caused bleeding in the Lord's church.  In response, leaders are being more clear and bold in fighting back against this error and are trying to really identify if men are worthy of priesthood advancements and callings.  I spent 13 years of my life an addict to this behavior. I know the withdrawals, I know the hopelessness of feeling like change is literally impossible, I know the sleepless nights stemming from the cravings/addiction.  It changes.  It isn't that way forever.  The healing power of the atonement is real.  The church needs to be healed.  We can't go on and press forward in the work the Lord would have us do being hypocrites and unfaithful to such a high law God has given us and operates by,

When I was 18, I was told by a peer that his bishop said masturbation is a reality you have to live with and all you can do is feel sorry when you do it.  That was a lie.  I will spend my life testifying of the life-changing, life-saving, healing power of Christ's atonement in the face of sexual addiction.  Too many are deceived and held back by people settling on a terrestrial lifestyle and attitude and understanding of how Christ can impact their life

where are you getting this?  (bold part) Is there a chart you are looking at?  

 

13 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

Are you suggesting we send out unworthy missionaries?  I went on a mission unworthily, that was wicked.  It was wrong.  Why should we lower the bar?  How is that following what God has asked of us?  If you don't live the law of chastity as a missionary you are a hypocrite and serving in vain.  I was a hypocrite and I served in vain.  I did the wrong thing.  We can't move forward and make progress being in blatant disobedience to what God has asked of us.  1 worthy missionary will do more good for God's church than 10,000,000 fake missionaries

I was thinking to myself that the person you were responding to was talking about the average person that occasionally messes up NOT the full blown addict. 

13 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

I masturbated on my mission.  I was a sinner.  I lied to my family to go on a mission.  I lied to my bishop.  I  took out my endowments  while nursing a pornography and masturbation addiction.  This problem haunted my missionary work.  It didn't disappear on my mission (but I sure believed it would! If I could just get out there things would change!) and it took serious, life-changing effort for years after my mission to find healing from this damaging behavior and now, I feel like a completely different person.  I have never been happier.  I never believed people could change from such harrowing, haunting behavior.  Part of repentance is admitting fault and turning to the Lord to find healing from problems. If people can't admit where they have sinned, that is pride, that is not repentance.

 

An army of law of chastity breaking missionaries isn't a solution to anything.  Neither is lowering the standards of the church to make people feel less bad about engaging in sinful behavior.  Do you think the law of chastity is a lie or just a suggestion?  Do you not believe in it?  I just don't understand what you want.  Worthiness interviews should just be tossed aside and we just need to hug each other as we look at porn and masturbate why telling the world we believe in this law of chastity thing but don't feel bad if you can't live it?  God has given us rules and we have seen in scripture it is legitimately blasphemous and damaging to God's church to alter the rules and to preach "easier laws" over what God wants us to follow.  Whenever the church got out of line in the Book of Mormon's narrative, God stretched out his hand to try and help people see they had gone off the mark (well until the Jaredites and Nephites had pushed things too far).  I am saddened and honestly discouraged so many members take the law of chastity and repentance so lightly, but this is the Lord's church and I have faith we will be called to repentance

Again in the bold, who are you talking about? I feel like your pre-repentance behavior has put you into a sort hyper-assumptive path of thinking. I agree that standards should be kept but there is a difference between a lying addict that will do anything to LOOK GOOD to family and friends but completely soaked in addictive sin and the person that messed up here and there

That being said I would approve a missionary in a heart beat if he or she had messed up here and there as compared to the full blown porn viewing-masturbating addict. I really think the church is doing just fine how they are conducting things right now (which I believe you agree with also) Now if these people are saying that leaders have NO right to touch lightly on personal morality issues then they are wrong. Sexual Addiction can hamper missionary work and of course drive away the spirit

Edited August 31, 2018 by Overwatch

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

He'll be excommunicated, no doubt. It's already made the New York Times! A family member who reads the Times emailed me the story (though of course I already heard about him). 

Most people ignore Mormonism. No, not an insult-but most people who aren't Mormons don't care what happens in the church. It's interesting when the church gets mainstream media attention. 

Thanks.

Yeah, a good reminder.  It's interests represent a tiny fraction of the population.  

Honestly, timing couldn't be worse for them.  The Catholic church having covered up abuse (again) - and hot on the heels of that is TCOJCOLDS excommunicating someone for campaigning to end older men asking minors sexually explicit questions during one-on-one interviews.

They are giving Sam a huge gift of publicity, and themselves a massive PR black eye.

i understand the realities are more subtle, but i don't think any of that is going to get communicated to the average person hearing about this.  

[BJ64]

11 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

TCOJCOLDS 

I like that. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by BJ64

[jerome1232]

10 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks.

Yeah, a good reminder.  It's interests represent a tiny fraction of the population.  

Honestly, timing couldn't be worse for them.  The Catholic church having covered up abuse (again) - and hot on the heels of that is TCOJCOLDS excommunicating someone for campaigning to end older men asking minors sexually explicit questions during one-on-one interviews.

They are giving Sam a huge gift of publicity, and themselves a massive PR black eye.

i understand the realities are more subtle, but i don't think any of that is going to get communicated to the average person hearing about this.  

It took me a solid 10 seconds of staring at TCOJCOLDS to figure out what that was supposed to be 😂🤣😂

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks.

Yeah, a good reminder.  It's interests represent a tiny fraction of the population.  

Honestly, timing couldn't be worse for them.  The Catholic church having covered up abuse (again) - and hot on the heels of that is TCOJCOLDS excommunicating someone for campaigning to end older men asking minors sexually explicit questions during one-on-one interviews.

They are giving Sam a huge gift of publicity, and themselves a massive PR black eye.

i understand the realities are more subtle, but i don't think any of that is going to get communicated to the average person hearing about this.  

This is a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. The church, Sam Young. Everyone. No one wins in this. 

[pam]

3 hours ago, Overwatch said:

Calm down bro. Your masturbation confessionals might have thrown me off. If I took you out of context then you get an apology if not then just realize i think the church is doing fine in this area

To be honest, I think you owe him an apology.  I think you took one comment out of this very long thread out of context.  And yes I've read it all of the way through.

[Overwatch]

1 hour ago, pam said:

To be honest, I think you owe him an apology.  I think you took one comment out of this very long thread out of context.  And yes I've read it all of the way through.

I sent another message after the one you quoted . I included a message of my train of thought, I feel he was inappropriate claiming some of the things he did

4 hours ago, Overwatch said:

I'm inferring too many members of the church are addicts to masturbation and this has been a case for decades and the body of the church has been weakened by this "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, everyone does this, it isn't a big deal" attitude perpetuated quietly/secretly (the Book of Mormon has some wonderful lessons on what evilness done in darkness does to organizations and to God's church in times past) by misguided leaders and members

^This one is especially. 

Is this official? Do we have a misguided leader problem?  I have not experienced this in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I have not once been told in all of the wards I have attended, even in a war zone, that masturbation is okay and isn't a big deal. 

 I respectfully stand by my opinion Pam. *Now with this being said I will work on being more sensitive to the user base of Mormonhub but I am not good at tongue in cheek humor and sarcastic quips are not my thing (I suppose I can work on them so I can fit in better) 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Overwatch

[Overwatch]

18 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

I'm inferring too many members of the church are addicts to masturbation and this has been a case for decades and the body of the church has been weakened by this "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, everyone does this, it isn't a big deal" attitude perpetuated quietly/secretly (the Book of Mormon has some wonderful lessons on what evilness done in darkness does to organizations and to God's church in times past) by misguided leaders and members

*Here is the original ( I quoted myself quoting him)

[Just_A_Guy]

57 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

*Here is the original ( I quoted myself quoting him)

I think @FoolsMock is absolutely right that there are many *members* in the Church who treat masturbation far too lightly (and frankly, are generally more interested in defending some presupposed right to sexual pleasure than they are interested in knowing the Lord may have to say on the matter).  I think recent posts here at MormonHub through several threads, tend to bear this out; and the rhetoric of Sam Young’s supporters quite confirms it (for a darkly humorous yet thought-provoking take, see https://www.millennialstar.org/guest-post-a-bishops-interview-that-hurts-the-children/).  But @FoolsMock will have to speak for himself as to whether he meant for his statement to indict the current church *leadership* as well.

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Iggy]

5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Honestly, timing couldn't be worse for them.  The Catholic church having covered up abuse (again) - and hot on the heels of that is TCOJCOLDS excommunicating someone for campaigning to end older men asking minors sexually explicit questions during one-on-one interviews.

He is being brought before the Council because he is publicly endorsing & passing out petitions to stop investigators to, newly baptized adult converts and members of TCOJCLDS to NOT get baptized, to leave the church. From his own blog, here is the beginning sentence of the Disciplinary Letter:

Dear Sam,

This letter is a formal notice that the stake presidency will convene a formal disciplinary council in your behalf, the result of which includes the possibility of excommunication, disfellowshipment, formal probation, or no action.  The reason for this council is that you are reported to have acted repeatedly in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.  You have, among other things:

1. Encouraged others to vote opposed to Church leaders.
2. Organized more than one public “action” that expressed opposition to the Church or its leaders.

Articles of Faith: 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Since Primary, we have taught that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, DO NOT BASH other faiths, nor the people who believe in those other faiths. So here is a once bishop of our faith, publicly BASHING his own faith. Question it, that is fine.

He is pissed off because he did not publicly get answers to his convoluted demands. For crying out loud, go to his blog and read the entire thing, he IS convoluted, After about the 5th one, it is apparent that he is NUTS!

Also, I started coming to church 58 years ago at the age of 8. I was baptized when I was 14. I can't remember during those primary and young woman years where there was NOT two adults in every class, and when I had my interviews with the Bishop, the door was left slightly open and my Primary Teacher/Young Women's Leader or my own non-member Mother was sitting outside in easy yelling distance.

Another thing to remember is that excommunication is NOT punishment. It is the only way for an apostate to regain standing in the church. IF he never wants to come back, then he will probably be encouraged to fill out the forms to have his name removed from church records.

Also something to note, ALL of his daughters are grown and have children of their of their own. So which daughter told him of this interview, and WHEN? Were all of his daughters treated the same at their interviews??

Again, I repeat, ad nauseum: This man is Card Carrying Certified NUTS - In My NOT So Humble Opinion. 🤦‍♀️ 🙄

Edited September 1, 2018 by Iggy
to add bolding

[lostinwater]

23 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Again, I repeat, ad nauseum: This man is Card Carrying Certified NUTS - In My NOT So Humble Opinion. 🤦‍♀️ 🙄

Thanks.  

Yeah, the process does not surprise me at all.  i'm not sure i agree with his having a mental illness, the motives others are superimposing onto Sam, or the inherent incorrectness of the methods he's using.

But, that's just my opinion, and is worth significantly less than what you paid for it.

(money saving tip: never pay for lostinwater's opinion - it's always free ).

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think @FoolsMock is absolutely right that there are many *members* in the Church who treat masturbation far too lightly (and frankly, are generally more interested in defending some presupposed right to sexual pleasure than they are interested in knowing the Lord may have to say on the matter).  

 

I believe there are too many members who blow the seriousness of masturbation way out of proportion to the actual seriousness of the matter. Even President Kimball, one of its most outspoken critics called it a “rather common indiscretion”.