Are differences in IQ a reflection of pre-mortal attainment?

[Anddenex]

46 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I can't find any reference to the Holy Ghost being a "god" or receiving a body during the millennium.  I'm asking you to show me where you find that reference.  

Let's break this down within the two parts stated (only one of these is speculation):

1) Is the Holy Ghost a God

2) Will the Holy Ghost receive a body during the millennium

"The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead." (Source) He is a member of the Godhead, thus he is a God (no different than Jesus Christ who is one with the Father); otherwise, he would not have been a member of the Godhead.  This is undisputed, and futile to try to dispute it.

Do you personally really believe you can be a member of the Godhead without being a God?

As pertaining to the Holy Ghost receiving a body during the millennium is speculation. We don't know when he will receive his body.  We only know that he will at some point receive a body in order to fulfill God the Father's work and glory "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life" of his offspring.  It has been suggested, and a common held belief by some, that it will most likely be during the millennium because it will be a period in time when the people will have bound Satan by their own righteousness. Appears to be the best time for him to receive his body.

[zil]

God must be upset with me - he's throwing ice pellets at my house!

[Grunt]

13 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Let's break this down within the two parts stated (only one of these is speculation):

1) Is the Holy Ghost a God

2) Will the Holy Ghost receive a body during the millennium

"The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead." (Source) He is a member of the Godhead, thus he is a God (no different than Jesus Christ who is one with the Father); otherwise, he would not have been a member of the Godhead.  This is undisputed, and futile to try to dispute it.

Do you personally really believe you can be a member of the Godhead without being a God?

As pertaining to the Holy Ghost receiving a body during the millennium is speculation. We don't know when he will receive his body.  We only know that he will at some point receive a body in order to fulfill God the Father's work and glory "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life" of his offspring.  It has been suggested, and a common held belief by some, that it will most likely be during the millennium because it will be a period in time when the people will have bound Satan by their own righteousness. Appears to be the best time for him to receive his body.

2

1). I see in the Bible Dictionary where it says the Holy Ghost and The Christ are Gods, but I can't find it in scripture anywhere.  Where does it come from?

2).  Agreed.  Speculation.  I also can't find anywhere that it says the Holy Spirit will ever receive a body or what His nature is.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

1). I see in the Bible Dictionary where it says the Holy Ghost and The Christ are Gods, but I can't find it in scripture anywhere.  Where does it come from?

2).  Agreed.  Speculation.  I also can't find anywhere that it says the Holy Spirit will ever receive a body or what His nature is.

Holy Ghost (Guide to Scriptures) are supporting scriptures referring to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

We don't know much about the Holy Ghost, but what we do know allows us to recognize specific events must occur in order for God to fulfill his plan for all his children. What we know about the Holy Ghost:

1) He is a son of God, offspring of the Father (We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29.)

2) He has a spirit body, similar to the spirit body we all had in our pre-mortal existence ("This means that the Holy Ghost has a spirit body" Elder Gary E. Stevenson)

3) He must progress in the same manner all of God the Father's offspring progress in order to become like the Father and to receive a fullness of the Father. Without question though he will receive a fullness of the Father.

In light of this we know at some point he will obtain a body of flesh and blood according to the will and time of God. Anyone who say they know when, this knowledge would have come through personal revelation, and shouldn't be revealed as nothing has been revealed by the prophets thus far.

Sadly I am not able to find the quote that I thought was on lds.org previously specifying not much is known, and then highlights what we do know.

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Anddenex
change of bone to blood

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Holy Ghost (Guide to Scriptures) are supporting scriptures referring to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

We don't know much about the Holy Ghost, but what we do know allows us to recognize specific events must occur in order for God to fulfill his plan for all his children. What we know about the Holy Ghost:

1) He is a son of God, offspring of the Father (We are the offspring of God, Acts 17:28–29.)

2) He has a spirit body, similar to the spirit body we all had in our pre-mortal existence ("This means that the Holy Ghost has a spirit body" Elder Gary E. Stevenson)

3) He must progress in the same manner all of God the Father's offspring progress in order to become like the Father and to receive a fullness of the Father. Without question though he will receive a fullness of the Father.

In light of this we know at some point he will obtain a body of flesh and bone according to the will and time of God. Anyone who say they know when, this knowledge would have come through personal revelation, and shouldn't be revealed as nothing has been revealed by the prophets thus far.

Sadly I am not able to find the quote that I thought was on lds.org previously specifying not much is known, and then highlights what we do know.

 

Thanks.  I haven't been able to find anything that supports any of that, either.   I'm always extra careful, as a new convert, because I'm consistently told things to be fact, then pulled aside by other members and told it's just lore.  I really try to research everything.  

[LePeel]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  I'll wait.  As I said, my research turns up nothing.  

There is no mention in the scriptures, ancient or modern, that the Holy Ghost will receive a body. As for him being a god, it really depends on how we're defining "god."

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, LePeel said:

There is no mention in the scriptures, ancient or modern, that the Holy Ghost will receive a body. As for him being a god, it really depends on how we're defining "god."

That's where I'm at.  I still have trouble with King Follet's Discourse.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Grunt said:

That's where I'm at.  I still have trouble with King Follet's Discourse.

is that official doctrine? 

[LePeel]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

That's where I'm at.  I still have trouble with King Follet's Discourse.

Having trouble as in it's difficult to take in? Or trouble as in you cant see how the Holy Ghost can be a "god" given the discourse's contents?

Edited August 23, 2018 by LePeel

[Grunt]

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

is that official doctrine? 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

7 minutes ago, LePeel said:

Having trouble as in it's difficult to take in? Or trouble as in you cant see how the Holy Ghost can be a "god" given the discourse's contents?

Difficult to take in.  As a new convert, I have a comfortable grasp of exaltation, but really struggle when "exaltation" is swapped for "become gods".

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Not that I'm aware of.

 

I read that in college before I even joined the church. 

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I read that in college before I even joined the church. 

It almost kept me from joining the Church.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

It almost kept me from joining the Church.

I don't blame you, it's a complicated speech. That's probably why it hasn't been added to official doctrine. 

[LePeel]

32 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Not that I'm aware of.

 

Difficult to take in.  As a new convert, I have a comfortable grasp of exaltation, but really struggle when "exaltation" is swapped for "become gods".

Here's how I see it. Eternal life is the kind of life that God lives. If its possible for us to have the same life that God has, the same fullness, then the Father must be an exalted man. That's what my reasoning follows anyway.

If you've read the Pearl of Great Price, the book of Moses it says about God, "in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is His name." In the language which God gave to Adam, the Eternal One, the Father of Spirits, is called a Man. I believe we are the same kind of being as this Man of Holiness.

Edited August 23, 2018 by LePeel

[person0]

30 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't blame you, it's a complicated speech. That's probably why it hasn't been added to official doctrine. 

It was partially included in Chapter 1 of the original Gospel Principles Manual (It said that our destiny is to become gods).  Now it doesn't say it until Chapter 46.

EDIT (Evidence):

SIDE NOTE (About the Holy Ghost):

Quote

Before he was president of the Church, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

AVOID SPECULATING ON DESTINY OF THE SPIRIT. The Holy Ghost is not a personage with a body of flesh and bones, and in this respect differs from the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is not a woman, as some have declared, and therefore is not the mother of Jesus Christ.

It is a waste of time to speculate in relation to his jurisdiction. We know what has been revealed and that the Holy Ghost, sometimes spoken of as the Holy Spirit, and Comforter, is the third member of the Godhead, and that he, being in perfect harmony with the Father and the Son, reveals to man by the spirit of revelation and prophecy the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our great duty is so to live that we may be led constantly in light and truth by this Comforter so that we may not be deceived by the many false spirits that are in the world.

I have never troubled myself about the Holy Ghost whether he will sometime have a body or not because it is not in any way essential to my salvation. He is a member of the Godhead, with great power and authority, with a most wonderful mission which must be performed by a spirit. This has satisfied me without delving into mysteries that would be of no particular benefit.
(FairMormon)

Edited August 23, 2018 by person0

[Sunday21]

27 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Not that I'm aware of.

 

Difficult to take in.  As a new convert, I have a comfortable grasp of exaltation, but really struggle when "exaltation" is swapped for "become gods".

I read it one. I am completely baffled. I gave up trying to understand it.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, person0 said:

It was partially included in Chapter 1 of the original Gospel Principles Manual (It said that our destiny is to become gods).  Now it doesn't say it until Chapter 46.

Thanks bud. 

[askandanswer]

22 hours ago, LePeel said:

I've been reflecting on the differences in IQ between individuals and differences in average IQ between races. For example, the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70, whereas the a average IQ of East Asians is 105. What about the pygmy people? Theirs is 54. What are the implications of these differences for the Plan of Salvation? 

Does a high IQ indicate a person increased to a greater degree in pre-mortality? Is IQ the manifestation of something in the spirit? Or do you think IQ is unconnected to the spirit? 

This is NOT a question of does IQ = morality/spirituality. Its a question of is IQ a flesh and blood reflection of a spirit's "mental capacity" or degree of increase.

ABRAHAM 3:18  Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19  And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
 

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, zil said:

Wow.  That sounded really smart.

 

 

Well yes, it would to you.

[Lost Boy]

On 8/22/2018 at 1:06 AM, LePeel said:

I've been reflecting on the differences in IQ between individuals and differences in average IQ between races. For example, the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70, whereas the a average IQ of East Asians is 105. What about the pygmy people? Theirs is 54. What are the implications of these differences for the Plan of Salvation? 

Does a high IQ indicate a person increased to a greater degree in pre-mortality? Is IQ the manifestation of something in the spirit? Or do you think IQ is unconnected to the spirit? 

This is NOT a question of does IQ = morality/spirituality. Its a question of is IQ a flesh and blood reflection of a spirit's "mental capacity" or degree of increase.

I have seen this before and typically this smacks hard of racism.  Most people that I see that use this come across as using this to support that their race is fundamentally smarter than others.  And there may be some truth to it, but.....

IQ is not just a genetic thing.  The ability to learn, understand and to think come from a mixture of genetics, family, friends, schooling, diet, etc.  Most of these things are out of the control of the individual.   

What I believe is God has a plan for each of us.  We all have our challenges and our strengths to overcome them.  I have known plenty of people with high IQ that are not spiritual in the least.  So no, I don't think a high IQ is any indication of what we achieved in the premortal.

And for that matter, I doubt that there are any traits we can exhibit that tell us about our premortal existence.

[anatess2]

On 8/22/2018 at 7:33 PM, Grunt said:

1). I see in the Bible Dictionary where it says the Holy Ghost and The Christ are Gods, but I can't find it in scripture anywhere.  Where does it come from?

Growing up in the Catholic Church, I haven't had any issues with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being Gods.  Jesus being God is all over the NT (John 10:30 being the main one).  The major one for the Holy Ghost is 1 Cor 12:4-6.  Matt 28:19 and 2 Cor 13:14 puts the Holy Spirit in equal standing with Christ and the Father.

[anatess2]

30 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

 

And for that matter, I doubt that there are any traits we can exhibit that tell us about our premortal existence.

I know what you're saying but there are exceptions to this statement such as...  Joseph Smith Jr was foreordained to restore the gospel in this dispensation.  

[Lost Boy]

11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I know what you're saying but there are exceptions to this statement such as...  Joseph Smith Jr was foreordained to restore the gospel in this dispensation.  

Foreordination is not a trait one can see.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Foreordination is not a trait one can see.

If you can't see it, then you can't recognize it.

[omegaseamaster75]

On 8/22/2018 at 5:59 PM, MormonGator said:

is that official doctrine? 

Absolutely not