Lies we tell our daughters: Have a career.

[anatess2]

Browsing youtube today and happened on this.  I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson as he's a guy who champions boys.  I don't have a daughter but I do find myself in a position of influence with a lot of young women so I found this interesting.

 

[Iggy]

You are right, it is very interesting. Finally someone has given a great definition between Career and Job. Don't you think that this could be the same about boys/men also??

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Iggy said:

You are right, it is very interesting. Finally someone has given a great definition between Career and Job. Don't you think that this could be the same about boys/men also??

It's not the same because.... men HAVE to do those things in the same manner that they have to be the ones to put the women and children on the boats.  It's basically like Women's General Conference Session on Saturday - the bishopric announced in the pulpit that men have to do what it takes so the women can attend the session on Saturday.  It's the most efficient cooperative system to attain the most joy.  A true feminist realizes that fulfillment is found in doing the things men can't do or suck at doing while at the same time appreciating in men what women can't do or suck at doing in the building of families/societies.

So, we send our men out to compete for scarce resources for their families because somebody has to do it.  We applaud them for their efforts because they are so much more efficient at it and would, therefore find fulfillment in the effort.  At the same time, we women tend to the nurture and care of every member of our family/community because somebody has to do it and we are so much more efficient at it, and would, therefore find fulfillment in the effort.   Both efforts have value.  The value is not in the work, the value is in the care of our families.

Today's modern feminist thinks that their worth is defined by the work.  STEM - oooh, high wage great value.  Teacher - oooh, low wage low value.  So they find fulfillment by competing with men who are so much more efficient at competing because they define value in terms of wages, instead of finding fulfillment in the building of families/societies, which is the ultimate end goal of STEM.

And yes, I'm a female Computer Engineer and don't find this in conflict with what I said above because my being a computer engineer is not where my fulfillment or my joy lies but in my main career of Wife and Mother and Daughter and Sister and Cousin and Cub Scout Den Leader and CTR5 Teacher, etc. etc. supported by my wages.  But yeah, I'm one of those that, if I was 10 years old in today's world somebody would be telling me to get hormone blockers and do a sex change operation because I got a die-hard competitive streak.

Edited October 2, 2018 by anatess2

[JohnsonJones]

@anatess2 I can tell we will see things very differently on this.

I don't think I like this guy whose video you posted and think I may have very different opinions than he does.

WHY is he just addressing the "girls" on this.  It seems VERY sexist.

The same things he says about girls would apply to boys in this modern age.

I have several daughters, all of them have a "career" thus far.  One of those "careers" is a wife and mother.  They work VERY hard at this career and are VERY good at it.

They all are talented.  One is very good with computers, one is very good at editing and publishing.  They are very accomplished at what they do.  WHY does he have to address them and NOT the boys in the room?

I don't necessarily agree with what he says (of course, I chose something that I love to do, so it seems less like work and more like being paid to play...with a few exceptions...giving tests is NOT something I actually enjoy, nor going over such things with TAs who or doing grading myself), but I think the idea that he is specifically addressing the girls in this video is probably the most offensive thing to me.

[Iggy]

16 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

@anatess2 I can tell we will see things very differently on this.

I don't think I like this guy whose video you posted and think I may have very different opinions than he does.

WHY is he just addressing the "girls" on this.  It seems VERY sexist.

The same things he says about girls would apply to boys in this modern age.

I have several daughters, all of them have a "career" thus far.  One of those "careers" is a wife and mother.  They work VERY hard at this career and are VERY good at it.

They all are talented.  One is very good with computers, one is very good at editing and publishing.  They are very accomplished at what they do.  WHY does he have to address them and NOT the boys in the room?

I don't necessarily agree with what he says (of course, I chose something that I love to do, so it seems less like work and more like being paid to play...with a few exceptions...giving tests is NOT something I actually enjoy, nor going over such things with TAs who or doing grading myself), but I think the idea that he is specifically addressing the girls in this video is probably the most offensive thing to me.

In her sentence prefacing the video she says: I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson as he's a guy who champions boys.

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

@anatess2 I can tell we will see things very differently on this.

I don't think I like this guy whose video you posted and think I may have very different opinions than he does.

WHY is he just addressing the "girls" on this.  It seems VERY sexist.

The same things he says about girls would apply to boys in this modern age.

I have several daughters, all of them have a "career" thus far.  One of those "careers" is a wife and mother.  They work VERY hard at this career and are VERY good at it.

They all are talented.  One is very good with computers, one is very good at editing and publishing.  They are very accomplished at what they do.  WHY does he have to address them and NOT the boys in the room?

I don't necessarily agree with what he says (of course, I chose something that I love to do, so it seems less like work and more like being paid to play...with a few exceptions...giving tests is NOT something I actually enjoy, nor going over such things with TAs who or doing grading myself), but I think the idea that he is specifically addressing the girls in this video is probably the most offensive thing to me.

This video is during a conversation about the "Wage Gap".

[Fether]

15 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

@anatess2 I can tell we will see things very differently on this.

I don't think I like this guy whose video you posted and think I may have very different opinions than he does.

WHY is he just addressing the "girls" on this.  It seems VERY sexist.

The same things he says about girls would apply to boys in this modern age.

I have several daughters, all of them have a "career" thus far.  One of those "careers" is a wife and mother.  They work VERY hard at this career and are VERY good at it.

They all are talented.  One is very good with computers, one is very good at editing and publishing.  They are very accomplished at what they do.  WHY does he have to address them and NOT the boys in the room?

I don't necessarily agree with what he says (of course, I chose something that I love to do, so it seems less like work and more like being paid to play...with a few exceptions...giving tests is NOT something I actually enjoy, nor going over such things with TAs who or doing grading myself), but I think the idea that he is specifically addressing the girls in this video is probably the most offensive thing to me.

I don’t really understand where your offense or view of this being sexist is coming from, but that is likely due to me alreadying having a love for Jordan peterson.

Of all the conservative speakers out there, he, at least to me, seems to be the most down to earth and logically minded of them all. 

Also, having seen him speak on multiple occasions, I know he is not sexist. The idea he seems to be attacking is a feminist ideology that woman have been forced into the unimportant and unfulfilling duty of child bearing and raising. The reason he isn’t addressing men is because for the most part, men don’t fall for this.  Jordan is only arguing that woman should desire motherhood and realize life will be hard.

Having grown up with the generation he is talking about, I can back his statements and say they are true (but not for everyone). There were countless woman in my highly Mormon and conservative Utah high school and college that had no desire to have children and believed they needed to do something great. And the way the measures greatness was by the money they made. 

This isn’t an attack on woman, but an attack on a dangerous personal and societal ideology.

[Vort]

Virtue-signaling is the BEST!

[JohnsonJones]

11 minutes ago, Fether said:

I don’t really understand where your offense or view of this being sexist is coming from, but that is likely due to me alreadying having a love for Jordan peterson.

Of all the conservative speakers out there, he, at least to me, seems to be the most down to earth and logically minded of them all. 

Also, having seen him speak on multiple occasions, I know he is not sexist. The idea he seems to be attacking is a feminist ideology that woman have been forced into the unimportant and unfulfilling duty of child bearing and raising. The reason he isn’t addressing men is because for the most part, men don’t fall for this.  Jordan is only arguing that woman should desire motherhood and realize life will be hard.

Having grown up with the generation he is talking about, I can back his statements and say they are true (but not for everyone). There were countless woman in my highly Mormon and conservative Utah high school and college that had no desire to have children and believed they needed to do something great. And the way the measures greatness was by the money they made. 

This isn’t an attack on woman, but an attack on a dangerous personal and societal ideology.

I would disagree with your assessment, however, I'm not here to make a stir.

I don't like what I've seen of the guy and read of his (and since looked up more about him). 

As many here are his brand of conservatives, I can see why he may appeal to them, but that does not necessarily mean I, who am not of the same conservative brand as many here would agree with him.  In fact, as many would label me as a liberal it probably should be obvious WHY I may disagree with him greatly.  MANY liberals would say I am being too kind and too polite.  Their comments would be FAR more scorching of his character and some of the types that he appeals to who try to use his arguments which are absolutely opposed to what I would consider moral conduct in our day.

In many ways I find some of his arguments to be the cancer of our time and of the same quality that would keep my daughters barefoot and pregnant in the home rather than flourishing IN CAREERS (not just jobs...careers) of their own.

In short, I do not agree with many things that Jordan Peterson espouses.

He has his opinions, and I have mine.

We are all different.  In this, I am not trying to change yours or anyone's opinion but I am expressing that in this, I am probably not going to see the same way as those who agree with some of the opinions expressed by Jordan Peterson.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Of all the conservative speakers out there, he, at least to me, seems to be the most down to earth and logically minded of them all. 

Even more so than Mike Rowe?

[The Folk Prophet]

17 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

One of those "careers" is a wife and mother.

 

55 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

the cancer of our time and of the same quality that would keep my daughters barefoot and pregnant in the home rather than flourishing IN CAREERS (not just jobs...careers) of their own.

Something doesn't add up here. Is wife and mother/barefoot and pregnant a "career", or is it an oppressive cancer?

[Fether]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Even more so than Mike Rowe?

You are right. Mike Rowe could be one of the greatest human being on this planet. Soft spoken, experiences, very kind... He is just an incredible human being.

[The Folk Prophet]

Watched the video. Point 1 was nonsense. You don't have a career OR a job. They're not mutually exclusive. A career is a job (or jobs) and a job can be a career or part of a career. Point 2 was, of course, valuable. Family matters most -- and teenagers don't know what they're talking about.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I would disagree with your assessment, however, I'm not here to make a stir.

I don't like what I've seen of the guy and read of his (and since looked up more about him). 

As many here are his brand of conservatives, I can see why he may appeal to them, but that does not necessarily mean I, who am not of the same conservative brand as many here would agree with him.  In fact, as many would label me as a liberal it probably should be obvious WHY I may disagree with him greatly.  MANY liberals would say I am being too kind and too polite.  Their comments would be FAR more scorching of his character and some of the types that he appeals to who try to use his arguments which are absolutely opposed to what I would consider moral conduct in our day.

In many ways I find some of his arguments to be the cancer of our time and of the same quality that would keep my daughters barefoot and pregnant in the home rather than flourishing IN CAREERS (not just jobs...careers) of their own.

In short, I do not agree with many things that Jordan Peterson espouses.

He has his opinions, and I have mine.

We are all different.  In this, I am not trying to change yours or anyone's opinion but I am expressing that in this, I am probably not going to see the same way as those who agree with some of the opinions expressed by Jordan Peterson.

Definite  chasm  Between our believes. I find the phrase “bare foot and pregnant” highly offensive and nothing more than rhetoric used to demean the roll of a mother, particularly ones that desire to be stay at home morhets and have large families.

He is not suggesting woman be “bare foot and pregnant”, he doesn’t even elude to that, please show me where he even suggests that he wants that.

What he is saying is that woman will regret the choice to not have children and to spend their life seeking high paying “meaningful” jobs.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Fether

[Vort]

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Something doesn't add up here. Is wife and mother/barefoot and pregnant a "career", or is it an oppressive cancer?

You're not hearing the clarion Virtue Signal.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

clarion

Word of the day.

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

clarion

 Word of the day.

I’m pretty positive that is a Pokémon

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Of all the conservative speakers out there, he, at least to me, seems to be the most down to earth and logically minded of them all. 

He's actually not a conservative speaker in the same manner that Dave Rubin is not conservative but speak on the same side of the issue.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Watched the video. Point 1 was nonsense. You don't have a career OR a job. They're not mutually exclusive. A career is a job (or jobs) and a job can be a career or part of a career. 

This goes under difference in definitions.   Peterson describes a career as that which establishes an identity (you choose to be defined by it), e.g.  a Doctor, a Lawyer usually desire to be defined by those jobs which make those a career.  It's like a badge.  So they prioritized those (he stated spending 60 hours a week on it, at least) higher than most anything else.  This is more clear, I think, in the term "career military" as opposed to just military.  Military is usually just a temporary thing and you don't choose to be defined as such, but career military are those who choose to be defined by their military service so they stay in the military for a long period of time climbing ladders.  So, in a sense, that's how it becomes exclusive... you have a job and then you make one into a career - 2 different things.

So, like @JohnsonJones stated, he said something about "barefoot and pregnant" which, in my understanding, he sees raising children as a job, not a career - he doesn't want his daughters to be defined by it.  I'm different from this.  There's nothing more defining for me than my work raising my 2 boys and being a wife to my husband.  It's my career.  Computer engineering is just a job so I can have money to support my career because my career doesn't make money.

Edited October 3, 2018 by anatess2

[MrShorty]

I see it as sexist. I don't see why anything he said applies strictly and uniquely to women and not men, as well. Why should I as a man prefer to be labeled as doctor or lawyer and not seek to prioritize the titles of husband and father? Are there reasons why it is better for a man to not worry about dying alone? Perhaps there is some validity to the "biological clock" thing he mentions, because women cannot bear children as long as men, but would I really want to be just starting my family at 70?

None of that really addresses the concerns that could come up trying to apply his thoughts to single men and women. It might be interesting to see how someone like Sheri Dew or Wendy Watson Nelson might react to his emphasis on bearing your own children.

All told, except for the concerns for singles, most of what he actually said I could agree with. If only he had addressed it to both men and women rather than just addressing women. Perhaps there are reasons I am not aware of for specifically addressing women, but I did not see any reasons given for such a choice.

Edited October 3, 2018 by MrShorty

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I see it as sexist. I don't see why anything he said applies strictly and uniquely to women and not men, as well. Why should I as a man prefer to be labeled as doctor or lawyer and not seek to prioritize the titles of husband and father? Are there reasons why it is better for a man to not worry about dying alone? Perhaps there is some validity to the "biological clock" thing he mentions, because women cannot bear children as long as men, but would I really want to be just starting my family at 70?

None of that really addresses the concerns that could come up trying to apply his thoughts to single men and women. It might be interesting to see how someone like Sheri Dew or Wendy Watson Nelson might react to his emphasis on bearing your own children.

All told, except for the concerns for singles, most of what he actually said I could agree with. If only he had addressed it to both men and women rather than just addressing women. Perhaps there are reasons I am not aware of for specifically addressing women, but I did not see any reasons given for such a choice.

I answered all of this above.  It is the exact same reason why men are given the duties and obligations of the Priesthood and be defined as priests and not just Father.

Edited October 3, 2018 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Peterson describes a career as that which establishes an identity (you choose to be defined by it), e.g.  a Doctor, a Lawyer usually desire to be defined by those jobs which make those a career.  It's like a badge.

Bah.

51 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I see it as sexist.

sexism

 noun

 

sex·ism | \ ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm  \

Definition of sexism 

 

1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex especially : discrimination against women

2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Is it 1 or 2?

[MrShorty]

I don't think that I thought about definitions that closely (who knows, maybe I did not think at all). Since you pressed me on it, I would say it is more 2 than 1 -- more towards how this fosters stereotypical gender roles. I think I have made comments on this forum to the effect that I am not convinced that many/most/maybe all of the gender stereotypes we use to describe men and women are universally true. Perhaps I am thinking counter to the Family Proclamation, but I am also not sure about strict adherence to the described/prescribed gender roles given in the Family Proclamation.

Edited October 3, 2018 by MrShorty
double negatives

[Guest MormonGator]

It's always a bit sad to see social conservatives fight battles they can't win. Do you really think women are going to suddenly give up careers and become stay at home moms just because of what Jordan Peterson said? 

[Fether]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

It might be interesting to see how someone like Sheri Dew or Wendy Watson Nelson might react to his emphasis on bearing your own children.

I think they would completely agree. Just cause they never had the opportunity to have kids of their own doesn’t mean they don’t see the importance of it.