Styln

Non Mormon - Heaven

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7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I grew up with messages insisting, "Today is the day of salvation...you have no guarantee what tomorrow might bring...God is calling and you dare not resist.." etc. Today such messages are much rarer, and many perceive them as high pressure tactics. When it comes to matters of faith and spirituality people seem much calmer, and more circumspect. Yet, we are also more stressed, polarized, and anxious. I wonder if we worry about the right things.  :detective:

Do we worry about the right things?  Usually not.

Now I am in no way a fan of "you better come to God right now or it'll be fire & brimstone" mentality.   Note, I'm not saying this is the the mentality you're supporting, it's just one I've seen and it really irks me.  Relationships should be built on love not fear.  Especially the most important relationship we'll ever have: with God.  Now am I a fan of growing good love-based relationships sooner rather than later?  Totally- let us start right now bringing more joy and love into life.  

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3 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Do we worry about the right things?  Usually not.

Exactly.  I mostly worry about the left things.  Take my left hand, for example.  It's utterly inept, no coordination at all (except for steering the car).  And then there's my left brain - way more dominant than I'd like.  And both my left foot and my left eye are ridiculously skeptical.

Edited by zil

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On 10/22/2018 at 3:38 AM, prisonchaplain said:

Am I right that it would be most difficult for traditional Christians to enter the highest heavenly kingdom, but that there are also a fair number of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who will, for various reasons, also find themselves in second (Terrestial) kingdom?

No offense, but you have created a lot of discussion within this thread in which I was seeking information from the Mormon people. However, you have not participated in providing an answer to my requestr. ?  I hope you will.

 

Stylin

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57 minutes ago, Styln said:

No offense, but you have created a lot of discussion within this thread in which I was seeking information from the Mormon people. However, you have not participated in providing an answer to my requestr. ?  I hope you will.

 

Stylin

@prisonchaplain has been with this forum for upteen years. He has done as much if not more research of the LDS faith, so listen to him. He may be an Evangelical, but he is also quite educated in the LDS faith.

BTW we prefer to be called Latter-day Saints, not mormon people. Even before President Russell M. Nelsen stated this in the last General Conference, I really DETESTED being called mormon. Listen to his talk and/or read along while you listen. Our name has never changed, it has always been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Jesus Christ Himself named His church. No offense :detective:

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9 hours ago, Styln said:

No offense, but you have created a lot of discussion within this thread in which I was seeking information from the Mormon people. However, you have not participated in providing an answer to my requestr. ?  I hope you will.

 

Stylin

Despite having been here quite awhile, I am not a church member, and still find myself less than competent on certain doctrinal issues. Your question gave me an opportunity to learn more on this issue, so I added my own questions. As for my own answers, they are likely very similar to the ones your own Mennonite faith holds to.

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26 minutes ago, Styln said:

Thanks for your reply... Since nobody can tell me for sure if I will make it to heaven, I guess it must be a matter of Faith.

Pretty much.  Last time I checked, I had neither the tools, nor the skill, nor the job of figuring out who goes to heaven and who doesn't.  I don't think any human who ever walked the earth, save One, can give you a good answer.  

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49 minutes ago, Styln said:

Thanks for your reply... Since nobody can tell me for sure if I will make it to heaven, I guess it must be a matter of Faith.

 

Styln

We can tell you that one has to work quite hard to not make it to a degree of glory.

Which kingdom of God you will inherit is up to you, and how far you choose to advance along God's covenant path.

Your question can only be answered with another question. If you rephrased it to "Which kingdom of glory will I inherit in my fathers kingdom?" I would respond with "How much of God's truth are you willing to accept and to act upon?"

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1 hour ago, Styln said:

Thanks for your reply... Since nobody can tell me for sure if I will make it to heaven, I guess it must be a matter of Faith.

God alone makes that call, not strangers on the internet.  We have no way of knowing/judging how much of God's Truth you're willing to accept with you heart, mind, and might.  

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1 hour ago, Styln said:

Thanks for your reply... Since nobody can tell me for sure if I will make it to heaven, I guess it must be a matter of Faith.

 

Styln

So... I took a visit over at mennoniteusa.org, and confirmed that your faith community believes in the resurrection and Kingdom of God to come. It also affirms punishment for those who reject fellowship with God, engage in unrighteousness, and who refuse his kingdom. My church (Assemblies of God) teaches much the same. If I may offer my crude understanding of the resurrection, from the perspective of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it would be thus:

 

Heavenly Realms:

Celestial Kingdom: Populated by those valiant in faith. Even within this kingdom, there will be degrees of glory, with the highest attaining exaltation--becoming like God.

Terrestial Kingdom: Populated by those sincere people who were mostly righteous, and who were sincere in whatever spirituality they practiced. This realm will be glorious beyond our imagination, but, in comparison with the Celestial Kingdom will be as the moon is to the sun. Those here will experience the presence of the Son of God, but not the Father.

Telestial Kingdom: Populated by those who are mostly selfish and unresponsive to the things of God. Yet, these never became enemies of God or his church. This realm will also be wonderful, but significantly less than the Terrestial Kingdom.

 

Outer Darkness: Reserved for the enemies of God and his church, and those who were very intentionally unrighteous.

CHURCH MEMBERS:  Please correct any over-simplifications and misunderstandings I put above. 

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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

So... I took a visit over at mennoniteusa.org, and confirmed that your faith community believes in the resurrection and Kingdom of God to come. It also affirms punishment for those who reject fellowship with God, engage in unrighteousness, and who refuse his kingdom. My church (Assemblies of God) teaches much the same. If I may offer my crude understanding of the resurrection, from the perspective of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it would be thus:

 

Heavenly Realms:

Celestial Kingdom: Populated by those valiant in faith. Even within this kingdom, there will be degrees of glory, with the highest attaining exaltation--becoming like God.

Terrestial Kingdom: Populated by those sincere people who were mostly righteous, and who were sincere in whatever spirituality they practiced. This realm will be glorious beyond our imagination, but, in comparison with the Celestial Kingdom will be as the moon is to the sun. Those here will experience the presence of the Son of God, but not the Father.

Telestial Kingdom: Populated by those who are mostly selfish and unresponsive to the things of God. Yet, these never became enemies of God or his church. This realm will also be wonderful, but significantly less than the Terrestial Kingdom.

 

Outer Darkness: Reserved for the enemies of God and his church, and those who were very intentionally unrighteous.

CHURCH MEMBERS:  Please correct any over-simplifications and misunderstandings I put above. 

I would change telestial and outer darkness.

 

Telestial: 

D&C 76

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

 

It goes on to describe how people that inherit this kingdom will suffer in hell for their sins until the last resurrection, which is when they'll inherit this kingdom.

 

Outer darkness is a special place reserved for those who denied the holy spirit, that is they knew God and had a testimony of Christ but still tried to tear down His church despite that fact.

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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Heavenly Realms:

Celestial Kingdom: Populated by those valiant in faith.Who have been sealed to eternal companions. This is called the New and Everlasting Covenant. https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-23?lang=eng Even within this kingdom, there will be degrees of glory, with the highest attaining exaltation--becoming like God.

Terrestial Kingdom: Populated by those sincere people who were mostly righteous, and who were sincere in whatever spirituality they practiced. This realm will be glorious beyond our imagination, but, in comparison with the Celestial Kingdom will be as the moon is to the sun. Those here will experience the presence of the Son of God, but not the Father.

Telestial Kingdom: Populated by those who are mostly selfish and unresponsive to the things of God. Yet, these never became enemies of God or his church. This realm will also be wonderful, but significantly less than the Terrestial Kingdom.

Outer Darkness:aka Purgatory Reserved for the enemies of God and his church, and those who were very intentionally unrighteous. These are people who have 'walked with God', known His love, then turned against Him, preached against Him, knowing full well the consequences of these actions.

CHURCH MEMBERS:  Please correct any over-simplifications and misunderstandings I put above. Can't find the references but in all the kingdoms there will be many degrees of glory. Chap --no misunderstandings at all - just a few clarifications, additions and one reference to aid in understanding.

Responses in this funny green color. 😄

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If the initial experience in the outer darkness is akin to Catholic purgatory, I'm wondering if the eternal aspect might be the result of what Evangelicals call The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (the one sin Jesus identifies as unforgivable)?

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Just now, prisonchaplain said:

If the initial experience in the outer darkness is akin to Catholic purgatory, I'm wondering if the eternal aspect might be the result of what Evangelicals call The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (the one sin Jesus identifies as unforgivable)?

I would in no way compare Outer Darkness or any of the degrees of glory to Catholic purgatory.  For starters, Catholic purgatory is viewed as a temporary abode, not a final destination.  Outer Darkness is the final abode for those who commit the unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).

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41 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I would in no way compare Outer Darkness or any of the degrees of glory to Catholic purgatory.  For starters, Catholic purgatory is viewed as a temporary abode, not a final destination.  Outer Darkness is the final abode for those who commit the unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).

So, I had the 2nd part right. The first part you can take up with @Iggy. :popcorn:

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6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Pretty much.  Last time I checked, I had neither the tools, nor the skill, nor the job of figuring out who goes to heaven and who doesn't.  I don't think any human who ever walked the earth, save One, can give you a good answer.  

So good it feels to be free from all human judgment, Thank you

 

Styln

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5 hours ago, jerome1232 said:

We can tell you that one has to work quite hard to not make it to a degree of glory.

Which kingdom of God you will inherit is up to you, and how far you choose to advance along God's covenant path.

Your question can only be answered with another question. If you rephrased it to "Which kingdom of glory will I inherit in my fathers kingdom?" I would respond with "How much of God's truth are you willing to accept and to act upon?"

Please enlighten me, how many Kingdoms of God are there?

Please feel free to quote Biblical Scriptural references.

 

Styln

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1 minute ago, Styln said:

Please enlighten me, how many Kingdoms of God are there?

Quote

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Other scriptures linked to and explained here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/degrees-of-glory?lang=eng&letter=D

(feel free to ignore the ones not in the Bible)

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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

So... I took a visit over at mennoniteusa.org, and confirmed that your faith community believes in the resurrection and Kingdom of God to come. It also affirms punishment for those who reject fellowship with God, engage in unrighteousness, and who refuse his kingdom. My church (Assemblies of God) teaches much the same. If I may offer my crude understanding of the resurrection, from the perspective of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it would be thus:

 

Heavenly Realms:

Celestial Kingdom: Populated by those valiant in faith. Even within this kingdom, there will be degrees of glory, with the highest attaining exaltation--becoming like God.

Terrestial Kingdom: Populated by those sincere people who were mostly righteous, and who were sincere in whatever spirituality they practiced. This realm will be glorious beyond our imagination, but, in comparison with the Celestial Kingdom will be as the moon is to the sun. Those here will experience the presence of the Son of God, but not the Father.

Telestial Kingdom: Populated by those who are mostly selfish and unresponsive to the things of God. Yet, these never became enemies of God or his church. This realm will also be wonderful, but significantly less than the Terrestial Kingdom.

 

Outer Darkness: Reserved for the enemies of God and his church, and those who were very intentionally unrighteous.

CHURCH MEMBERS:  Please correct any over-simplifications and misunderstandings I put above. 

Thank you for your reply and moreover, your time to visit a Mennonite belief. Now I wonder who of all the many many beliefs are correct? It is so very confusing, who to believe, Mennonites, Catholics, LFDS, Evangelicals, JW's ?

 

Styln

 

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14 minutes ago, Styln said:

Please feel free to quote Biblical Scriptural references.

I can't imagine why I'd limit myself to The Bible when I have in addition to The Bible: The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, and all of the modern day prophets as sources for doctrine.

I believe this has been given before, this is a fantastic summary, with fantastic links.

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#overview

If you click scriptures it gives you the primary scriptural sources for this doctrine, in addition it provides talks given by modern day prophets on the subject, along with explanatory texts that are easy to understand under Learning resources.

Scriptural links below.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/15.40-41

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.20-39

Prophets talks on the subject:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/05/apostasy-and-restoration

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1978/10/an-eternal-hope-in-christ

Apostles talks on the subject:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/04/our-fathers-plan-big-enough-for-all-his-children

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/l-tom-perry_university-mortality/

Edited by jerome1232

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16 minutes ago, Styln said:

Thank you for your reply and moreover, your time to visit a Mennonite belief. Now I wonder who of all the many many beliefs are correct? It is so very confusing, who to believe, Mennonites, Catholics, LFDS, Evangelicals, JW's ?

*That* is a great question.  Might I suggest you take it to the ultimate source of Truth (God) and ask Him?  

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40 minutes ago, Styln said:

Thank you for your reply and moreover, your time to visit a Mennonite belief. Now I wonder who of all the many many beliefs are correct? It is so very confusing, who to believe, Mennonites, Catholics, LFDS, Evangelicals, JW's ?

 

Styln

 

Tongue in cheek answer:  http://www.ag.org (or http://www.paoc.org for you, my new Canadian friend).

Sincere answer:  Jesus proclaimed himself the Way, Truth and Life. He said no one comes to the Father but by Him. (John 14:6). Of the groups you mentioned,  Mennonites do not claim to be the only way to salvation. Catholics and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both claim to be Jesus' authorized church. As you have read here, neither would exclude from heavenly reward those who came to God's salvation through other avenues. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that their organization is the faithful and wise servant of God in these last days, and more or less teach that the only way to salvation from the coming War of Armaggedon is through them. So, the bottom line is that Jesus should be central to any true salvation. Personally, my faith community is my support and spiritual coach--not my means of reaching God.

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

*That* is a great question.  Might I suggest you take it to the ultimate source of Truth (God) and ask Him?  

I have and He has revealed the Truth. I guess I am seeking the opinions of others to understand better the various beliefs around the world.

 

Stytln

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52 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Tongue in cheek answer:  http://www.ag.org (or http://www.paoc.org for you, my new Canadian friend).

Sincere answer:  Jesus proclaimed himself the Way, Truth and Life. He said no one comes to the Father but by Him. (John 14:6). Of the groups you mentioned,  Mennonites do not claim to be the only way to salvation. Catholics and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both claim to be Jesus' authorized church. As you have read here, neither would exclude from heavenly reward those who came to God's salvation through other avenues. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that their organization is the faithful and wise servant of God in these last days, and more or less teach that the only way to salvation from the coming War of Armaggedon is through them. So, the bottom line is that Jesus should be central to any true salvation. Personally, my faith community is my support and spiritual coach--not my means of reaching God.

Glad you called me friend, thank you. This is what God has for all of us in the family.

 

Styln

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1 hour ago, Styln said:

I have and He has revealed the Truth. I guess I am seeking the opinions of others to understand better the various beliefs around the world.

Ok, sharing time then!

For LDS perspective, "How do I know what is True?" is one of the best questions a person can ask.  Obviously people have a bunch of different views on God, and conflicting views cannot all be correct.  There is ultimately only one Truth.  To investigate things and find out what it True, we have a few tools:

- Scriptures

- Study / Investigate / thinking things through 

- Prayer / asking God / listening to His answer    <<- This is the most important tool that should guide all others.

So a person should first pray, then read scriptures and study things out, and then again ask God "is [insert X] your Truth?".  And then of course, listen for the answer (it'd be silly to leave that part out!).

Speaking for myself: I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints first and foremost because this is where God tells me His Truth is.  Secondly, because the ideas/values taught here most match my own study of scripture and just thinking things through.  Continuing revelation, the big-picture Plan of Salvation, and emphasis on individual choice are each huge hitters for me, that I find missing elsewhere.  I'm not an LDS Christian because of loving the culture or pressure from friends (I actually had a lot of culture clashes for many years).   I'm here because this is where I find Truth.   

Now that being said, I also do love studying other faiths and talking to people from all walks of life!  I'm a huge inter-faith nerd.

Edited by Jane_Doe

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