2 Reasons I Loathe The Last Jedi (Non-political Reasons, Too)

[Fether]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

People griping about Episode V are grasping at straws.  It is pretty obvious on that fight scene how Luke was bumbling, completely unprepared for the fight having his hand chopped off there in the end even as Vader was simply trying to beat him to the point that Luke will join Vader.  He left the scene defeated.  When did Mary Rey Sue leave a fight defeated?

Yes, and there are countless explanations behind all the problems in the new trilogy...  but no one cares

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

My aim is not to convince anyone that the original trilogy is bad, but to show people are just high in nostalgia. To be honest, I love all the Star Wars movies. In another post i said that episodes 1 and 4 where my Least favorite, but I still really enjoyed both of them.

That's insulting.  Like we have zero brains to follow a story.

Star Wars is not about nostalgia.  Star Wars is about a fictional universe that has been built and relatively stayed consistent throughout decades due to the meticulous management of canon.  Yes, there are some misses.  But, with the size of the expanded universe, it is quite amazing how it has stayed pretty consistent all throughout these years such that you can put any new giant story arc in there - e.g. Thrawn - and he becomes a solid character that is consistent with the rest of the universe.

This is what YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.  And so now @unixknight and I will have to take away your Star Wars Fan card.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Fether said:

Yes, and there are countless explanations behind all the problems in the new trilogy...  but no one cares

All countless explanations that has ZERO foundation in the 2 movies and accompanying books.  Nobody cares because IT IS STUPID.

Edited December 4, 2018 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

All of Luke’s family was murdered and yet I can’t think of a single tear shed.

 

Too soon?

[Vort]

27 minutes ago, Fether said:

@unixknight @anatess2

I have the same feelings that you do. But why don’t the holes and rediculiusness of the original trilogy get you as fired up?

The begginung of return if the Jedi is  nonsensical. But it is still dang cool and episode 6 is still one of my most favorite episodes.

All of Luke’s family was murdered and yet I can’t think of a single tear shed.

Or when Leia’s entire home world is destroyed? No emotional reaction at all.

Why are all these things completely exempt from harsh criticism?

EDIT: D'oh. NT pre-empted me. Nuke this post, please, like Owen and Beru.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Vort

[anatess2]

29 minutes ago, Fether said:

@unixknight @anatess2

I have the same feelings that you do.

Doubt it.

 

29 minutes ago, Fether said:

But why don’t the holes and rediculiusness of the original trilogy get you as fired up?

 

Who said that?  Where were you the past 30 years?  In your mother's womb still?  Star Wars fandom bickering is LEGEND.  Even my son, who is only 15, can bicker with the rest of them on how "The Empire Did Nothing Wrong".

But these issues are not character-breaking issues because each character still remains true to their established characteristics.  The canon remains solid.  All your "complaints" are simply bad directing, bad acting, bad scriptwriting... and doesn't move the canon one iota.  Jarjar being annoying doesn't change canon. 

What could move the canon is the introduction of the midichlorians.  And that bickering was vicious.  But whether the force is measurable or not doesn't change the established arc that there are force-sensitive people and they learn to do those fancy things with their force sensitivity through training and become Jedi (or Sith).  Then they become Superman-esque as they get better with their training and become Jedi Masters (or Sith Lords).  Otherwise, they remain just... force sensitive.  Like Leia.

TLJ goes beyond bickering.  It destroyed the canon and in the process, made Luke Skywalker - the primary character of the universe - stupid.  I mean, seriously... you got your primary character develop from moisture farmer to Jedi and... he doesn't become a Jedi Master equal to or greater than Yoda?  Not even a Great Sith Lord like his father?  STUPID.

So yes.  The bickering fandom united to give JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, and Kathleen Kennedy a can of whooping taking Solo down with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by anatess2

[Fether]

Yea... I still think ALL the Starwars movies are fantastic

[unixknight]

27 minutes ago, Fether said:

The begginung of return if the Jedi is  nonsensical. But it is still dang cool and episode 6 is still one of my most favorite episodes.

What part do you mean?

27 minutes ago, Fether said:

All of Luke’s family was murdered and yet I can’t think of a single tear shed.

Why would there be?  The death of Beru and Owen wasn't meant to be a huge emotional scene.  We'd only just been introduced to all these characters so why would we react with a bunch of emotion?  The point of their death was to take away Luke's reason to bow out of the story and remain on Tatooine.  That was its narrative purpose.

27 minutes ago, Fether said:

Or when Leia’s entire home world is destroyed? No emotional reaction at all.

Again, why would there be an emotional reaction?  The narrative purpose of the destruction of Alderaan was to establish the destructive potential of the Death Star in order to build tension later when the Rebel base is threatened.  

See what I'm getting at?  Elements of a film should serve a specific purpose to progress the plot, establish character, foreshadow or build tension.  These examples you're giving here do exactly what they're supposed to do.  

27 minutes ago, Fether said:

Why are all these things completely exempt from harsh criticism?

They're not exempt.  I think you're just expecting them to do the wrong thing.  We've been very comfortable acknowledging the flaws in the original trilogy.  It's just that they don't suffer from any major narrative flaws that would ruin them the way Episode VIII does. 

You want me to take a couple swipes at them to prove I'm not just being nostalgic?

Episode V:

Episode V suffers because Han Solo and company's arc doesn't have a clear, specific goal other than to escape the Empire, but what does that look like?  We see the Millennium Falcon docked with the medical frigate at the end, so I guess that means they made it, but narratively they could have had that happen before reaching Bespin.  They didn't just to contrive more story.

Luke's confrontation with the Wampa is pointless and contributes nothing to the story, other than to give Luke a chance to demonstrate his progress with the Force by using it to recover his lightsaber when he's hanging in the cave.  Other than that it doesn't change the plot at all.  Both Luke and Han are still at the Rebel base when they need to be, at the beginning of the Imperial assault.

Episode VI:

It makes little sense for Luke to have accompanied Han's team to the surface of the Sanctuary Moon only to subsequently turn himself over to Vader.  He could have done that directly at any time.  Why do it right before the Rebel's final assault?  It's a narrative contrivance to force his confrontation with the Emperor to coincide with the battle.  It doesn't change anything in the plot except that he's in the Ewok village and can use the Force to levitate C-3P0 and convince the Ewoks to cooperate.

Nobody's saying they were perfect movies.  In fact, if my objections were solely being driven by nostalgia, why am I not beating up on Episode VII as well? 

25 minutes ago, Fether said:

Yes, and there are countless explanations behind all the problems in the new trilogy...  but no one cares

Doesn't matter unless it's onscreen, as @anatess2 pointed out.  A film must be able to stand on its own.  

[NeuroTypical]

Now, the Phineas and Ferb Star Wars movie special thing was just amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US-AYcJxM_w

The Mos Eisley Spaceport!  Now with 14% more scum and villainy!

Edited December 4, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

46 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Luke's confrontation with the Wampa is pointless and contributes nothing to the story, other than to give Luke a chance to demonstrate his progress with the Force by using it to recover his lightsaber when he's hanging in the cave.

I understood it was included to explain Luke's facial scarring.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

I understood it was included to explain Luke's facial scarring.

It also gets him hurt and in a state to have a hallucinogenic style force dream telling him to go to Daggobah.

Of course that gets kind of ruined later when force ghosts just start appearing willy nilly. But....in the moment it made sense.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

I understood it was included to explain Luke's facial scarring.

Which is to say, Mark Hamill had been in an automobile accident before filming began.

[unixknight]

26 minutes ago, Vort said:

I understood it was included to explain Luke's facial scarring.

Right, but strictly from a narrative perspective, it doesn't contribute to the plot.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by unixknight

[Fether]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

What part do you mean?

Jabas palace. The rescue mission of Han. The HISHE video I posted above explains my feelings perfectly

Edited December 4, 2018 by Fether

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, unixknight said:

You call that a 'meh' picture of Ms. Fisher?  She's gorgeous!

I call the picture 'meh', not Carrie.

Conversely:

or

...for example (among a myriad of others) are better (more flattering) "pictures" (subjectively).

4 hours ago, unixknight said:

Those pictures aren't objectifying.

However, discussing women by who's prettier is.

4 hours ago, unixknight said:

These images are perfectly fine.

Apparently you are under the impression I thought I was posting inappropriate images. That's a bit strange.

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

However, discussing women by who's prettier is.

 

Meh.  Some women are prettier than others.  Fact.  There's no point avoiding that simple truth.  Pretty is subjective so every woman can be pretty to somebody somewhere.  It's not objectifying to state preference.  It's objectifying to make somebody's looks as the sum total of what they are and not just a part of who they are.  I don't see anybody here deriding either Rey or Leia for the organization of their facial features.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

[unixknight]

52 minutes ago, Fether said:

Jabas palace. The rescue mission of Han. The HISHE video I posted above explains my feelings perfectly

See, I don't think that's narrative breaking.  Sure, you might be able to think of a better way, in-universe-for the characters to do something, but that kind of thinking can  be applied to absolutely any movie. 

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I call the picture 'meh', not Carrie.

Conversely:

or

...for example (among a myriad of others) are better (more flattering) "pictures" (subjectively).

However, discussing women by who's prettier is.

Apparently you are under the impression I thought I was posting inappropriate images. That's a bit strange.

See, in this set I like Daisy Ridley's picture better.

I don't think making a statement like "I think x is prettier than y" is objectifying anybody.  Now, if you were discussing them like they were inanimate objects, that's different.  And no, it had nothing to do with being inappropriate, they were just examples of something that WOULD be objectifying.  Where did you get that idea?

[Fether]

11 minutes ago, unixknight said:

See, I don't think that's narrative breaking.  Sure, you might be able to think of a better way, in-universe-for the characters to do something, but that kind of thinking can  be applied to absolutely any movie. 

Oh for sure!

But It isn’t that I can come up with a better plan, it’s that I can’t even figure out what their plan was.

But just try this. Sit down with a copy of the movie playing and write out what you think their intended plan was. And how would it have played out if it went perfectly? Why did they do what they did prior to all being captured  following the release of Han Solo?

I can’t figure out what the plan was. 

And I’m not COMPLETELY trying to get you to see my point. If you could provide an explanation, I would be thrilled  

Edited December 4, 2018 by Fether

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Fether said:

Oh for sure!

But It isn’t that I can come up with a better plan, it’s that I can’t even figure out what their plan was.

But just try this. Sit down with a copy of the movie playing and write out what you think their intended plan was. And how would it have played out if it went perfectly? Why did they do what they did prior to all being captured  following the release of Han Solo?

I can’t figure out what the plan was. 

And I’m not COMPLETELY trying to get you to see my point. If you could provide an explanation, I would be thrilled  

None of this is relevant to why TLJ broke Star Wars.

Just thought I'd let you know.

[JohnsonJones]

Rian Johnson is Mormon?

Or at least has a connection to Mormons?

Rian Johnson and MoTab Music and the Spoken Word

Hmm, maybe this doesn't help the conversation.  Anyways, I think his birthday is coming up.  December Birthdays always kind of stink because everyone tries to combine a Christmas gift with your birthday gift.  Hopefully he gets gifts for his birthday AND Christmas this year.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Fether]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

None of this is relevant to why TLJ broke Star Wars.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Wasn’t intending it to 👌

[unixknight]

34 minutes ago, Fether said:

Oh for sure!

But It isn’t that I can come up with a better plan, it’s that I can’t even figure out what their plan was.

But just try this. Sit down with a copy of the movie playing and write out what you think their intended plan was. And how would it have played out if it went perfectly? Why did they do what they did prior to all being captured  following the release of Han Solo?

I can’t figure out what the plan was. 

And I’m not COMPLETELY trying to get you to see my point. If you could provide an explanation, I would be thrilled  

Challenge Accepted!

• Lando is inserted ahead of time into Jabba's staff
• The droids arrive to relay Luke's message, informing Jabba that Luke intends to negotiate for Han's release (Plan A, this isn't expected to work)
• Leia (in disguise) arrives with Chewie, who is her ticket into Jabba's inner sanctum.  She releases Han form carbonite intending to escape with him (Plan B)
• Luke arrives to  use Jedi mind control to get Jabba to release Han and Chewie.  (Plan C)  Note that all of these approaches thus far are nonviolent in nature.
• With all the characters captured, it is now time to improvise a new plan, which is what these characters do best.

[JohnsonJones]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Challenge Accepted!

• Lando is inserted ahead of time into Jabba's staff
• The droids arrive to relay Luke's message, informing Jabba that Luke intends to negotiate for Han's release (Plan A, this isn't expected to work)
• Leia (in disguise) arrives with Chewie, who is her ticket into Jabba's inner sanctum.  She releases Han form carbonite intending to escape with him (Plan B)
• Luke arrives to  use Jedi mind control to get Jabba to release Han and Chewie.  (Plan C)  Note that all of these approaches thus far are nonviolent in nature.
• With all the characters captured, it is now time to improvise a new plan, which is what these characters do best.

It's been a long time, but if I recall that movie, wasn't the last option also a plan.  If I recall Luke had his robot conceal his laser sword and it tossed it too him after a pre-arranged signal or something to that effect.

[unixknight]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

It's been a long time, but if I recall that movie, wasn't the last option also a plan.  If I recall Luke had his robot conceal his laser sword and it tossed it too him after a pre-arranged signal or something to that effect.

It  may have been.  I always had the impression the lightsaber was stashed in R2 as a contingency.