I Would Like Opinions On An Activity My Kids Did In Primary

[CrimsonKairos]

How and when should you bear a cross upon your being and when are you worthy to do so? And when are you unworthy to do so?

Being worthy to wear cross jewelry? Wow, that seems a bit "out there" to me. You wear it if you want to remind yourself of the awful ordeal that Christ underwent for our sakes.

I believe that if LDS members are to wear a cross there should be some very strict rules about how it is obtained and displayed.

Are you serious? What, are we only to obtain them from a DeseretBook-affiliated retailer? Wow, you seem to be taking the wearing of the cross to an extreme, imho.

Being mortal until death, did the Heavenly Father judge Jesus? Is this the fear that people do not want to embrace and see the cross as a symbol of judgement?

I didn't understand this part. What do you mean by "Heavenly Father judging Jesus?"

[susieSA]

My kids brought a Christmas tree ornament home. It was a nail with a red ribbon tied around it. They had a little poem that said what it symbolized: the nail is obvious and the ribbon represented his blood.

Not to totally disregard what everyone else has said in previous posts....

But this seems really strange to me as a Christmas tree ornament...

I mean isn't the whole point of celebrating Christmas the birth of the Saviour & not His death?

[hanne_line]

<div class='quotemain'>

My kids brought a Christmas tree ornament home. It was a nail with a red ribbon tied around it. They had a little poem that said what it symbolized: the nail is obvious and the ribbon represented his blood.

Not to totally disregard what everyone else has said in previous posts....

But this seems really strange to me as a Christmas tree ornament...

I mean isn't the whole point of celebrating Christmas the birth of the Saviour & not His death?

You are so right susie:D

Easter would be the right time for that nail, perhaps???

Hanne Line

[Annabelli]

<div class='quotemain'>

How and when should you bear a cross upon your being and when are you worthy to do so? And when are you unworthy to do so?

Being worthy to wear cross jewelry? Wow, that seems a bit "out there" to me. You wear it if you want to remind yourself of the awful ordeal that Christ underwent for our sakes.

I believe that if LDS members are to wear a cross there should be some very strict rules about how it is obtained and displayed.

Are you serious? What, are we only to obtain them from a DeseretBook-affiliated retailer? Wow, you seem to be taking the wearing of the cross to an extreme, imho.

Being mortal until death, did the Heavenly Father judge Jesus? Is this the fear that people do not want to embrace and see the cross as a symbol of judgement?

I didn't understand this part. What do you mean by "Heavenly Father judging Jesus?"

I just cannot hear Pres. Hinckley say Bros. & Sis. let me remind you to purchase a cross at the Dollar Tree Store and look at it often. You will receive bargin upon bargin when you do so. It doesn't matter how you display your cross because it's not official doctrine anyway and you will not be allowed to bring it in the Temple. Just loop a red ribbon on it and try to stay off drugs.

[CrimsonKairos]

I mean isn't the whole point of celebrating Christmas the birth of the Saviour & not His death?

Without the cross, there would be no need for Christ's birth or resurrection.

Like Christ said in 3 Nephi, God sent Jesus into the world to be lifted up upon the cross.

Annabelli, I have to confess that I haven't understood most of what you've said in this thread. Oh I know what the words mean that you used, but I don't get you. Who said anything about getting a "bargain" cross or that the cross wasn't official doctrine? By the way, if I have a cross on a ring, I can wear that in the temple so...I don't know what you're talking about.

I've never had someone ask me as part of my temple recommend interview, "Do you affiliate with or endorse the display of any cross symbolism on your person?"

[rosie321]

I believe that if LDS members are to wear a cross there should be some very strict rules about how it is obtained and displayed

Why do we need more restrictions? Why should we have stipulations on what kind of cross we might have or not have? I don't understand why this would be necessary. The pharisees and saducees loved to come up with detailed laws and they demanded strict obedience to them. One of the great things about the LDS church is the concept of free agency. Where men are free to act and choose for themselves. If you don't like the cross -don't wear it, don't have it in your home. If you feel crosses should be displayed certain ways then you're free to display it in that manner.

As far as saving the cross or nails for Easter

Without the cross, there would be no need for Christ's birth or resurrection.

How can we truly comprehend the great gift God gave us? How can we understand the magnititude of the gift that we celebrate at Christmastime ( which is not even believed to be Christ's birthday).

The spirit of Christs birth, live, atonement, and resurrection should be alive in our hearts everyday not pulled out at certain times of the year.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

My kids brought a Christmas tree ornament home. It was a nail with a red ribbon tied around it. They had a little poem that said what it symbolized: the nail is obvious and the ribbon represented his blood.

Not to totally disregard what everyone else has said in previous posts....

But this seems really strange to me as a Christmas tree ornament...

I mean isn't the whole point of celebrating Christmas the birth of the Saviour & not His death?

There are a few Christmas Carols that remind us of Jesus' birth and death.

The Holly and the Ivy

The holly and the ivy,

When they are both full grown,

Of all trees that are in the wood,

The holly bears the crown

[Refrain:]

O, the rising of the sun,

And the running of the deer

The playing of the merry organ,

Sweet singing in the choir.

The holly bears a blossom,

As white as lily flow'r,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

To be our dear Saviour

[Refrain]

The holly bears a berry,

As red as any blood,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

To do poor sinners good

[Refrain]

The holly bears a prickle,

As sharp as any thorn,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

On Christmas Day in the morn

[Refrain]

The holly bears a bark,

As bitter as the gall,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

For to redeem us all

[Refrain]

The holly and the ivy,

When they are both full grown,

Of all trees that are in the wood,

The holly bears the crown

[Refrain]

M.

[Gwen]

interesting, never heard that one.

[susieSA]

There are a few Christmas Carols that remind us of Jesus' birth and death.

The Holly and the Ivy

The holly and the ivy,

When they are both full grown,

Of all trees that are in the wood,

The holly bears the crown

[Refrain:]

O, the rising of the sun,

And the running of the deer

The playing of the merry organ,

Sweet singing in the choir.

The holly bears a blossom,

As white as lily flow'r,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

To be our dear Saviour

[Refrain]

The holly bears a berry,

As red as any blood,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

To do poor sinners good

[Refrain]

The holly bears a prickle,

As sharp as any thorn,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

On Christmas Day in the morn

[Refrain]

The holly bears a bark,

As bitter as the gall,

And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,

For to redeem us all

[Refrain]

The holly and the ivy,

When they are both full grown,

Of all trees that are in the wood,

The holly bears the crown

[Refrain]

M.

Thanks for that Maureen...

You totally missed what I was trying to say... But anyway....

[prisonchaplain]

I don't see where I said to ignore the cross.....I think the question was....the poster who is a Mother with children in primary was wondering or asking if this was a good idea for children...who are primary aged....

I watched a cartoon version of the Passion of the Christ (only it was done in the early 90s and was G-rated). It was very tasteful, but I was eagle-eyed on my children, to be sure they wouldn't be disturbed. If a lesson is done right, 6+ year olds are well ready to handle the death and resurrection of Christ.

[CrimsonKairos]

Amen.

Sadly, all too often it is the adults who can't handle it.

[Gwen]

my kids have all seen the lamb of god. for one of our chruch's productions i thought it was rather vivid and very emotional. we've talked to the kids about it numerous times. the only problem we had with showing it to the kids is the oldest is very dramatic, likes to act things out and all. he was about 3 or so the first time he saw it, he went around saying something that you would swear was another language and then would spit in your face. now it's kinda funny actually. we had to have a talk about if you are gonna act out a character the "bad guys" aren't really the ones you want to be. we were able to put a stop to it. we've also had to teach the reverence that comes with jesus and that we don't "play" some things. we do act out stories sometimes but it's not in make it up as you go play time. if that makes any since.

their primary teachers came to us once and asked how we'd like the scripture stories taught (my kids are the primary), that the scriptures can be graphic. we agreed they can be, don't try to make it graphic but if it's in there teach it. my older boys knew what lepercy (?sp) was before they started school, lol even had a game which included lepercy. they know what happened after daniel got out of the lions den, and what david did after the stone hit goliath.

meanwhile the neighbor kid the same age told me johna was a cucumber. ???lol?? to each his own.

[checkerboy]

I have no beef with someone that wants to incorporate other religion's icons into their own worship.

Have a cross or don't. I could care less. This thread though was about incorporating something that may be offensive to others into a primary activity. Now while I generally believe that most people shouldn't take offense at trivial matters, this is a point I would have to say crosses that line.

We have been instructed to teach certain things and I believe that adding something like this to a primary activity was probably not too well thought out.

But again it really isn't too big a deal as long as we are teaching our children correct principles.

The thing that really bothers me is this quote:

The atonement was not Gethsemane.

The atonement was not the Tomb of Aramithaea.

The atonement was made on the cross.

Accept it, everyone. Read the scriptures. Stop going off the false traditions of your fathers/mothers and get doctrinal.

I will not accept that Crimson, that is just false doctrine.

The atonement began in the Garden. If you don't believe it do some scripture reading yourself.

I would suggest D&C 19 particularly verses 16-19.

The atonement finished with Christ's death obviously, but just because that death happened on a cross doesn't mean the cross is the important part of the atonement.

[tiancum]

You're beating a dead horse Checker. (i teased CK about it earlier)

We've had this debate....LOTS. It got pretty heated.

Yer not gonna change his mind.

[checkerboy]

I am not trying to change his mind. I am just trying to make sure that others that read this aren't confused.

[prisonchaplain]

The Atonement starts with the heart of God, who so loved the world He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. Gethsemane is a powerful place of prayer, and of Jesus' final acceptance of his horrific destiny--be mindful that the passion and the suffering will forever be imprinted upon his memory. BUT, the cross is the bottom line. That is where Jesus said, "It is finished."

[peanutgallery]

Wow. I didn't realize this would turn into a debate over the cross. It's been an interesting read though.

Someone posted that there is no temple recommend question asking if you wear a cross. In a sense there is though. One of the questions is, "Do you sustain the leaders of the church?" Part of sustaining is heeding their counsel. The leaders of the church have specifically told us not to wear crosses or display them. By doing so, you would be going against their counsel and not sustaining them. Several years ago the prophet told us not to wear more than one earring in our ears (among other things regarding our appearance.) That was devastating to me. I had one ear pierced 6 times. It took me a while, but I decided to be obedient and I removed 5 earrings. Would I still get a temple recommend with 6 earrings? Yes, I would, but would I truly be sustaining my prophet?

It's not following blindly. It's having faith and knowing that our Father in Heaven uses the leaders of our church as his mouthpiece. When you ignore their counsel, you are ignoring the counsel of Heavenly Father.

And BTW, I am not perfect; just trying my best. Don't think I am judgemental. I am only posting my thoughts and realize that other may have very different opinions. That's fine with me. It makes us all interesting.

[tiancum]

The leaders of the church have specifically told us not to wear crosses or display them.

THey have?? HOly cow

Cut and paste sista...I wanna see

[Aphrodite]

This is a very interesting topic. At first. the nail and ribbon seemed a bit like, woah. But now I have read the posts I think, actually, its quite an original idea. People should know about christs suffering, including children. Its important. Not just THAT he died but HOW he died is important too.

As for the cross debate..Im with CK on this. I dont see what the big deal is. I have a cross and I wear it sometimes. To me it symbolises my christianity. My brothers girlfriend bought it for me so I wear it as it was a gift, and very thoughtful of her as she knows I go to church. It actually feels good to wear it, and it DOES make me remember who I am and what I am-a christian. If only we were to wear a cross instead of garments. Much nicer and a much better way to remember. You can put your hands on it and feel it-its comforting and it really brings you to mind about the atonement and what christ did for us. I personally am all for the cross. And no I dont believe its the same as revering a gun that killed your mother or whatever. That is a ridiculous comparison. Christ's death was specific and for a reason, and the cross has been a symbol of christianity for centuries. I think the only reason we're not supposed to wear the cross (tho where it says that Id be interested to see-in the scriptures??? I dont think so) is to make us look different from all the other christian churches. I think we should blend more and wear the cross to unite us with our christian counterparts. we're accused of not being christian enough. A cross would put paid to all that.

[Canuck Mormon]

I see a problem with the ornament if it's given to young children (jr. Primary)

With the cross I see no problem. I wear a CTR ring, some people wear a cross, big deal. Whatever has you keep Christ in your thoughts.

I'm not sure, but I think it was Pres. David O. McKay who cautioned young women from wearing crosses around their necks. That was long before my time, as well as others. I have not heard anything recently on this subject.

As far as where the atonement took place, I think it began in Gethsemane but was completed on the cross. That's my view, definatly not doctrinal.

[peanutgallery]

The leaders of the church have specifically told us not to wear crosses or display them.

THey have?? HOly cow

Cut and paste sista...I wanna see

From LDS.org which I consider pretty accurate.

Cross

The cross is used in many Christian churches as a symbol of the Savior's death and Resurrection and as a sincere expression of faith. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we also remember with reverence the suffering of the Savior. But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.

And from Pres. Hinckley

President Hinckley further explained, “On Calvary he was the dying Jesus. From the tomb he emerged the living Christ. … Because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of his death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when he said, ‘If ye love me, keep my commandments’ (John 14:15)” (pp. 6, 7).

[prisonchaplain]

As an outsider, I'd take these quotes to mean that for LDS, the cross is not the symbol of your church, not that it is an absolutely prohibited icon, without tremendous meaning. President Hinckley wants to emphasize the resurrection, rather than the death in this excerpt, but he surely recognizes the death, and its importance.

Tutor me: Is not the Sacrament meeting, in part, a rememberance of Jesus' death?

[CrimsonKairos]

I have no beef with someone that wants to incorporate other religion's icons into their own worship.

Have a cross or don't. I could care less.

First off, I think you meant to say that you "could not care less," because if you could care less, you still care to some degree.

Second, are you suggesting that the cross is not a symbol used within the LDS religion? That we're somehow so much more enlightened and better that we don't need the cross?

I will not accept that Crimson, that is just false doctrine.

Wrong.

The atonement began in the Garden.

Wrong. Christ's preparation to atone was what occurred in Gethsemane, but the sacrifice for sin took place on the cross.

If you don't believe it do some scripture reading yourself. I would suggest D&C 19 particularly verses 16-19.

I get so tired of that answer. Have you ever read past D&C 19? Ever read any scriptures about the atonement besides D&C 19?

It makes me sick, really, that we have so many scriptures and all you and others can focus on is one scripture in D&C 19, ripped from context, raped of meaning, and forced to serve the false tradition of our parents that we can't let go of.

Here are some scriptures for you, bro, just from the D&C alone. Maybe you should read and ponder them before you thrust D&C 19:16-19 out as the banner of your "true" understanding of the atonement.

For, behold, I will bless all those who labor in my vineyard with a mighty blessing, and they shall believe on his words, which are given him through me by the Comforter, which manifesteth that Jesus was crucified by sinful men for the sins of the world, yea, for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart. (D&C 21:9)

I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one. (D&C 35:2)

Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. (D&C 45:52)

To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. (D&C 46:13)

Behold, I, the Lord, who was crucified for the sins of the world, give unto you a commandment that you shall forsake the world. (D&C 53:2)

And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138:35)

So uh, checkers, what do you make of that? Was Joseph Smith out of his mind when he received those revelations that don't mention Gethsemane at all? But wait, there's an even clearer one that defines...defines...the atonement as consisting of the crucifixion. Period.

That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. (D&C 76:41, 69)

What's that? He wrought the atonement through the shedding of his own blood? And he sweat blood in Gethsemane? Not the same thing. Let's see what "shedding blood" means in the scriptures, yes?

Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (Gen. 9:6)

Does that refer to sweating blood from pores, or does it refer to killing?

What man soever...killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat...he hath shed blood (Lev. 17:3-4)

So it's pretty clear that shedding blood is not a reference to Christ's capillaries bursting and forcing blood through his pores as occurred in Gethsemane. Christ's shed blood refers to his life blood, losing his life. If you aren't allergic to the Bible and Book of Mormon, there are lots of great scriptures to inform you more. Here are a few.

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (Eph. 2:16)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col. 1:14-20)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Col. 2:14)

And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. (1 Ne. 11:33)

Perhaps most importantly, we have Christ's own words concerning his atonement, and what it consisted of.

Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil— (3 Ne. 27:13-14)

Hmmm, no mention of Gethsemane. I wonder why only Mosiah 3:7 and D&C 19:16-19 refer to the incident where Christ bled from every pore? Why would we only have two...just two...scriptures talking about Christ bleeding from every pore, if that was part of the sacrifice for sin foreshadowed in the Law of Moses ritual of the Day of Atonement?

And why, pray tell, is Gethsemane not even mentioned in the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles' 2001 declaration "The Living Christ?"

Um, here's a thought: Maybe because Gethsemane is not where Christ paid the price for our sins. Maybe because over the years, well-meaning but misguided church members have interpreted D&C 19 out of context and propagated their false doctrine through numerous Sunday School classes and Seminary lessons until everyone I ask today tells me that the atonement happened in Gethsemane alone.

So if you're going to suggest someone read the scriptures, try it for yourself first. You might be surprised at all the doctrine you never knew was there.

The atonement finished with Christ's death obviously, but just because that death happened on a cross doesn't mean the cross is the important part of the atonement.

The atonement was the sacrifice for sin. The sacrifice for sin has always involved killing and the death of an innocent, spotless sacrificial victim.

Christ did not die in Gethsemane.

Christ did not drink from the bitter cup in Gethsemane (read 3 Nephi to see where Christ says so himself, although there are New Testament scriptures that say so as well).

So no, the atonement did not "begin" in Gethsemane. The atonement began when Jesus was arrested by wicked men, and ended with his uttering the words, "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit."

You might wanna research your doctrine beyond the seminary answers you no doubt love and cherish. There's much more that you haven't even tapped into. Good luck. And please stop spreading unscriptural doctrines.

There is no scripture that says, explicitly, "Christ atoned for our sins in Gethsemane."

There are more than a dozen scriptures that say explicitly, "Christ atoned for our sins on the Cross."

You do the math.

One last reminder of what the scriptures say about the atoning sacrifice for sin:

...Jesus was crucified by sinful men for the sins of the world, yea, for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart. (D&C 21:9)

Jesus Christ was not tortured in Gethsemane by wicked men for the sins of the world, nor did Jesus have his blood shed by wicked men in Gethsemane. I'll tell you what I know:

I know that Jesus Christ died so that my sins might too.

[CrimsonKairos]

But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.

Let me be clear. I don't wear a cross or have a cross tattoo. For me the cross is almost too sacred to wear, though I totally understand the attraction and desire to wear a cross necklace or have a cross ring or what have you. I respect people who wear a cross, I don't look down on them as misguided or shallow.

President Hinckley further explained, “On Calvary he was the dying Jesus."

Yeah, and Jesus died so we could be forgiven of our sins. What's so horrible about reminding ourselves and others that Jesus died for us? I guarantee you that the only reason Pres. Hinckley or any other prophet advises against our Church adopting the cross in our meetinghouse architecture and in the jewelry our members wear, is simply to set us apart from the other Christian churches out there.

Because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of his death as the symbol of our faith.

Perhaps not THE only symbol, but there is no prohibition against using the cross as A symbol of our faith.

Look, I use the cross as a symbol of the atonement that sets me free from the sins of my past. I'm not saying you should use the cross to symbolize everything about Christ. The cross is, however, a potent symbol of the sacrifice for sin that ransoms you and me and all who repent.

Joseph Smith taught this:

"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, ed. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Press, 1938), p. 121 (emphasis added). Joseph Smith said that he "published the foregoing [answer] to save myself the trouble of repeating the same a thousand times over and over again." (Ibid.))

So you can interpret Pres. Hinckley's remarks in any way you wish to. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to explain how it can be wrong to carry a symbol of the single most important act in time or eternity, to wit, the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross, where wicked men shed his blood, that our sins might be blotted out.

[CrimsonKairos]

President Hinckley wants to emphasize the resurrection, rather than the death in this excerpt, but he surely recognizes the death, and its importance.

Of course he does! He is a special witness of Jesus Christ just as the New Testament apostles were. I believe that Pres. Hinckley has felt the prints of the nails in the hands and feet of our resurrected Lord. He can testify that Jesus lives in a very literal and personal way.

Tutor me: Is not the Sacrament meeting, in part, a rememberance of Jesus' death?

It's all about remembering Christ's death.

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. (1 Cor. 11:26)

It's funny, but so many LDS members think the sacrament water represents the blood Christ sweat in Gethsemane. This is in no way true.

We eat the bread first to remember the physical pain of his death on the cross, and we drink the water second to remember how wicked men shed his blood unjustly on Calvary.

In the scriptures, Gethsemane happened before Calvary.

But wait, in the sacrament tokens we remember Calvary first and what, rewind to Gethsemane with the water?

It's so sad how confused too many LDS members are, especially when there is no excuse for it since we have the scriptures before us to teach us the truth.