Questions re the sin to suffering rate

[askandanswer]

The discussion about the fate Judas and the fate of David leads me to think about the question of how is it decided how much suffering is required to pay for how much sin. Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts on who sets the sin to suffering rate and how it is determined? (More importantly, does anybody know how to rig the rate?  ) It seems that at least one of the factors that varies the rate is the amount of faith/knowledge/understanding one has, with whosoever sinning against the greater light receiving the greater condemnation. That being true, has the rate stayed the same over time, or is it a higher rate for those who are of what we have sometimes been told is a royal generation, reserved for the last days and who have greater light than those of previous generations?

[zil]

4 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

does anybody know how to rig the rate?

Repent early and often.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

The discussion about the fate Judas and the fate of David leads me to think about the question of how is it decided how much suffering is required to pay for how much sin. Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts on who sets the sin to suffering rate and how it is determined? (More importantly, does anybody know how to rig the rate?  ) It seems that at least one of the factors that varies the rate is the amount of faith/knowledge/understanding one has, with whosoever sinning against the greater light receiving the greater condemnation. That being true, has the rate stayed the same over time, or is it a higher rate for those who are of what we have sometimes been told is a royal generation, reserved for the last days and who have greater light than those of previous generations?

Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts on who sets the sin to suffering rate and how it is determined?

Yes, it is God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ who set the rate. How that is determined -- nothing in scriptures specifies the sin to suffering ratio, except that people will suffer even as Christ who bled from every pore. So, the suffering is intense for David and Judas.

We know they aren't redeemed for at least a 1000 years, end of millennium. I would assume for Judas and David this includes time in spirit prison (but that is my theory).

It seems that at least one of the factors that varies the rate is the amount of faith/knowledge/understanding one has, with whosoever sinning against the greater light receiving the greater condemnation.

This is true. For a person who sins against greater knowledge will have more suffering. A three-year-old that steals something in comparison to a teenager, the suffering will be different as they learn how to make things right. The three-year-old next day will be fine. The teenager may suffer the rest of their life (to a degree of thinking "how stupid I was, I knew better) until death knowing in whom they trust.

For those who do not sin against the light, like Nephi, will suffer to some degree like Nephi, but at death will be in paradise and will be wrapped in the arms of glory.

(More importantly, does anybody know how to rig the rate?  )

Yes, accept the atonement every day while we are living. The rate of suffering in comparison to those who spend time in hell, is much better for those who do not.

That being true, has the rate stayed the same over time, or is it a higher rate for those who are of what we have sometimes been told is a royal generation, reserved for the last days and who have greater light than those of previous generations?

No, we are all within the same bounds of mercy and justice. Our period of time in the flesh doesn't matter. In order for God to not be a respecter of persons, the time we are born should not have any affect pertaining to the rate of suffering and sin.

Our knowledge though will. So for those of us born in the gospel of Jesus Christ, having been taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, having received the ordinances of Jesus Christ. We have a more likely scenario to endure harder times if we sin. Our suffering will be greater due to the knowledge we had.

The time though doesn't appear to change. This appears to be the same for all who were born before the millennium.

[NeuroTypical]

Sin might bring suffering, but not all suffering is caused by sin.  And sin brings other consequences, both short and long term, besides suffering.

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Repent early and often.

.......if only i could think of something i need to repent of.

Repentance being essential for salvation i guess I'll have to sin, at some point in my life, in order to have need to repent.

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

We know they aren't redeemed for at least a 1000 years, end of millennium. I

I'm reminded of the teachings that 1,000 years is as one day with God and that time is only measured by man

[Vort]

I understand that A&A asks this question at least partially tongue-in-cheek, but I assume there's a real question there, too. I think it's a great question, because it points up the difference between our limited mortal understanding of time and the duration and importance of events vs. an eternal perspective.

From a strictly time-bound POV, it's clear that any suffering over any finite period of time is insignificant in comparison with the infinite duration of eternity. In this view, any suffering for sin at all is ignorable, because hey, we live forever. Strange, then, that the scriptures warn us constantly of the wages of sin.

I think Section 19 is applicable in this discussion. Here, the Lord tells us that he uses descriptors that may be misunderstood by us, and that he does so "that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." So "Endless punishment" is of finite duration; "Endless" is the Being inflicting the punishment, so that it serves as a description on the quality of the punishment, not the duration.

What we're missing here is any real notion of what constitutes the "quality" of a punishment or affliction. Alma the Wicked Younger told of his own excruciating punishment, the deathly wages of his own sins, which he himself called "eternal torment". That it ended after so brief a time—for what are three days in the course of eternity?—is not the point, and ultimately of no moment. It got the job done.

The punishment itself is not of endless duration, but I would argue that the consequences of that punishment might well be. As for the suffering-to-sin rate, I deeply believe that's a misguided way of thinking about things, even though it's how pretty much all of us consider it. Even if it were an appropriate way of approaching the issue, it's something that we can't answer. In the end, it isn't even relevant, because Christ "pays the price" that must be paid, and we get off scot free.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Vort

[Anddenex]

21 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm reminded of the teachings that 1,000 years is as one day with God and that time is only measured by man

True. I am only providing that as an idea. One day or a thousands years will have the same result for those who experience hell for that time. They will experience what Christ experienced. That day will still be significant to them.

You and I, hopefully we will live a life that paradise is our rest, and we don't have to worry about that "one" day.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The discussion about the fate Judas and the fate of David leads me to think about the question of how is it decided how much suffering is required to pay for how much sin. Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts on who sets the sin to suffering rate and how it is determined? (More importantly, does anybody know how to rig the rate?  ) It seems that at least one of the factors that varies the rate is the amount of faith/knowledge/understanding one has, with whosoever sinning against the greater light receiving the greater condemnation. That being true, has the rate stayed the same over time, or is it a higher rate for those who are of what we have sometimes been told is a royal generation, reserved for the last days and who have greater light than those of previous generations?

I believe this is a great question – not because it concerns doctrine so much as it demonstrates what little understand many of us have concerning sin.  I have come to understand that there are two very different consequences of sin.  The first consequence is what we all think about – it is the pain and suffering that we cause in others.  Most think this is the great reason that we should not sin – since we should lover one another we ought not cause them any pain.  So with this understanding of sin comes the idea that those that initiate the sin (and initiate the suffering in others) should also be punished and caused to suffer.

Immediately if one thinks about this idea of revenge punishment they will see the great flaw in punitive suffering.   For those that do not see the logical problem – let me explain.  If sin is the causes of suffering in others – then causing others to suffer is a kind of sin.  This means that the punishing of suffering with suffering is a kind of sin (or propagating sin) and causing suffering in others.  Divine goodness is about ending suffering not propagating it.  I have come to believe that one of the elements that caused Lucifer to become Satan was a proclivity towards bringing others to suffer for causing suffering.

I believe there is a second element of sin much greater than the first.  This is that sin causes damage (in many forms) to the sinner.  So powerful is this damage that even the atonement of Christ cannot heal the damage.  Only by the cooperation and repentance of the sinner can the atonement of Christ have an effect.

@Rob Osborn is correct in his understanding that sin – any sin damages a person and causes them to turn for the glory of divinity.  We will all come to understand what suffering we cause in others but some will not realize the damage we do to ourselves.   The damage we do ourselves has no time constraint – it is not punishment it is consequence and as long as we allow that damage to remain and cause us spiritual sickness – we will remain forever in it bondage – as slave to forces that bind us, take away our agency and makes us slaves (addicts) of sin.  

 

The Traveler