Nonbeliever's questions about your faith

[anatess2]

6 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

I see! That makes sense.

Then there’s this thing about Priesthood Authority and Priesthood Keys...

[Madam_Mim]

I didn't want to imply that the prophets would try to force their rules on anybody with their revelations. I was only thinking about the idea of getting certain messages out for everyone to know. You know.. God being like "I HAVE to let the world know about this!" and then announce it through his prophets. Btw: I'm not suddenly a believer who wants those things to happen - those are just random thoughts. I was thinking how much it used to upset god in the bible when people worshipped other gods or didn't follow his commandments, so it must be frustrating for him to see billions of people who don't even know about this church or worship another god - he doesn't seem to do much to change that.

 

20 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

My understanding is that yes, each individual can receive their own personal revelations, but it IS up to each of us to accept it.

In fact, one of the cornerstones of conversion for those who are Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to receive such a revelation of the truth for themselves.  This is commonly explained to investigators of the church via this scripture.

Moroni 10:3-5

Oh right, I remember reading that. But what if you don't get a revelation of truth after praying about it? Or even worse: If you pray about it and feel that it's not true?

 

 

14 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Then there’s this thing about Priesthood Authority and Priesthood Keys...

Oh gosh.. there's more?! I'll read into that another time. 

 

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Oh gosh.. there's more?! I'll read into that another time. 

 

It's tightly tied to this thing about Revelation...

[unixknight]

12 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

I was thinking how much it used to upset god in the bible when people worshipped other gods or didn't follow his commandments, so it must be frustrating for him to see billions of people who don't even know about this church or worship another god - he doesn't seem to do much to change that.

No doubt it is incredibly frustrating...

But He is doing plenty about it!  He's sending missionaries all over the world to change that very thing.  Materials and information are freely available to anyone, and everyone is welcome at our meetings.

12 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Oh right, I remember reading that. But what if you don't get a revelation of truth after praying about it? Or even worse: If you pray about it and feel that it's not true?

It happens sometimes.  If we pray for answers and don't get them, sometimes it just means we need to be patient.  God operates according to His schedule, not ours.  

If we pray about something and feel it isn't true, then it's time to do a little study, a little more prayer, and to counsel with those whom we trust. 

[Guest Mores]

49 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

I didn't want to imply that the prophets would try to force their rules on anybody with their revelations. I was only thinking about the idea of getting certain messages out for everyone to know. You know.. God being like "I HAVE to let the world know about this!" and then announce it through his prophets. Btw: I'm not suddenly a believer who wants those things to happen - those are just random thoughts. I was thinking how much it used to upset god in the bible when people worshipped other gods or didn't follow his commandments, so it must be frustrating for him to see billions of people who don't even know about this church or worship another god - he doesn't seem to do much to change that.

Ah, I see your meaning now.  Ok.

• Yes, God wants the whole world to know.  And we do our best to get the word out.  But our abilities are limited when we represent less than 1% of the world population.  And our political clout is not so great beyond a few small population states.  We're only about 2% of the US population
• Yes, Biblically, many people went off to worship other gods.  But remember this was just the Israelites.  There were many other nations who knew "about" the Jews.  But they didn't listen to their prophets or follow the patterns of worship.
• Should everyone listen?  Yes, of course.  But the prophet can only speak to those who will listen.  Jesus, himself, was limited in that regard.  In fact, several times when a gentile came to Him, he refused to help them -- with a few exceptions where an abundance of faith was offered.

So, this last one is what I offer for people who say that they never received anything like revelation or any evidence that God is real.  He doesn't give it to you until after you've shown some faith.  

Quote

...I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

 -- Ether 12:6

What this translates to is: Ben Gates will not find any proof that the treasure exists until he performs actual work based on a possibility to show he is truly open to the possibility that it is real.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Mores

[Madam_Mim]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

No doubt it is incredibly frustrating...

But He is doing plenty about it!  He's sending missionaries all over the world to change that very thing.  Materials and information are freely available to anyone, and everyone is welcome at our meetings.

Missionaries... pfft. I'm thinking bigger here! Like giving the pope a revelation that makes him realize he's actually representing the wrong church! THAT would make an impact.

But seriously: (Not sure why I'm even thinking about ways to promote the church) At least where I live, hardly anyone knows what "Mormonism" even is. If you don't actively look for information, you'll never really hear or read anything about this belief. 

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

It happens sometimes.  If we pray for answers and don't get them, sometimes it just means we need to be patient.  God operates according to His schedule, not ours.  

If we pray about something and feel it isn't true, then it's time to do a little study, a little more prayer, and to counsel with those whom we trust. 

So if you pray for an answer and your answer is "yes, the church is true", you can stop praying about it.

If you pray for an answer and your answer is "no, the church isn't true", you have to keep on praying until your answer is yes? 😮 

[unixknight]

6 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Missionaries... pfft. I'm thinking bigger here! Like giving the pope a revelation that makes him realize he's actually representing the wrong church! THAT would make an impact.

I've imagined that scenario.  Firstly, I'm not convinced the Pope listens to God.  Second, if the Pope suddenly were to make an announcement that the true Church is the LDS Church... well,  let's just say I doubt he'd be allowed to get that far.  

6 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

But seriously: (Not sure why I'm even thinking about ways to promote the church) At least where I live, hardly anyone knows what "Mormonism" even is. If you don't actively look for information, you'll never really hear or read anything about this belief. 

Good things take time.  And those who aren't hearing the message yet won't be forgotten or left out.

6 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

So if you pray for an answer and your answer is "yes, the church is true", you can stop praying about it.

If you pray for an answer and your answer is "no, the church isn't true", you have to keep on praying until your answer is yes? 😮 

What about the first time you pray about it?  If the answer is 'no' you'd walk away, right?  You can stop praying about it at that point.  At least, that's what I would have done.

And if, on that first time, you pray about it and the answer is 'yes'?  Well, in my case, I joined the Church... but no I didn't stop praying about it.  I'm a human being, and yes, I occasionally feel doubts.  When I do, I pray again.  So far, the answer has always been consistent.

As for a case where someone first gets a 'yes' and subsequently gets a 'no' well, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which someone got conflicting answers.  I suppose that would be up to the individual to determine how best to handle it.  God exists whether the Church is true nor not... So He should always be the one we pray to for guidance directly.  This is why our Church doesn't have intercessors to pray through.  We're always supposed to go directly to the source ourselves, not through priests or anyone else.  That way, your relationship with God exists independently.

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, Madam_Mim said:

But seriously: (Not sure why I'm even thinking about ways to promote the church) At least where I live, hardly anyone knows what "Mormonism" even is. If you don't actively look for information, you'll never really hear or read anything about this belief. 

Do people here about Christ in Italy?  Do people here about honoring your father and mother?

While LDS Christians believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ's personal church and has the most Truth, all Truth and Goodness come from Him.  Anybody who preaches about Christ is doing God's will (even if it isn't the fullness).  Anybody who even teaches the importance of being honest is that that moment teaching His truths.  

Building line upon line.

Just now, Madam_Mim said:

So if you pray for an answer and your answer is "yes, the church is true", you can stop praying about it.

If you pray for an answer and your answer is "no, the church isn't true", you have to keep on praying until your answer is yes? 😮 

That's not my stance at all.  If you hear a specific answer one way or the other, you should listen.  If you don't hear a specific answer, keep asking / investigating.  

[Guest Mores]

36 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

So if you pray for an answer and your answer is "yes, the church is true", you can stop praying about it.

If you pray for an answer and your answer is "no, the church isn't true", you have to keep on praying until your answer is yes? 😮 

Third possibility: You pray and you get no answer.  Then you keep learning, pondering, praying.

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

So if you pray for an answer and your answer is "yes, the church is true", you can stop praying about it.

If you pray for an answer and your answer is "no, the church isn't true", you have to keep on praying until your answer is yes? 😮 

If you get a yes... you act on the yes...

If you get a no... you act on the no...

If you get nothing... you keep asking...  Profound difference

[Guest Scott]

8 hours ago, unixknight said:

I've imagined that scenario.  Firstly, I'm not convinced the Pope listens to God.  Second, if the Pope suddenly were to make an announcement that the true Church is the LDS Church... well,  let's just say I doubt he'd be allowed to get that far.  

The Pope and LDS prophet decide to team up and work together on making the world a better place.   They pull together and gather the most spiritual and intellectual members from each church and finally a God phone is invented where Church leaders can talk directly to God over the phone.  They decide to make two God phones and install one of each at the headquarters for each church.  

They decide to get together to discuss some youth issued and have a meeting at the Vatican.

After the meeting, the Prophet tells the Pope that he really needs to use the God phone, and he'd be happy to pay any charges for the call.

The Pope says sure and escorts him to the God phone.

Ten minutes later, President Nelson returns and said that he used the God phone for ten minutes. The Pope winces, and says, "I hate to tell you this, but that's an expensive call. I'm afraid the charges for that call will be a million dollars".

The Prophet nods solemnly, pulls out his checkbook, and writes a personal check to the Pope for a million dollars.

The next month, the Pope goes to see the Prophet in Salt Lake City. They have a nice visit, and the Pope tells the Prophet that now HE needs to make a phone call. The Prophet shows him to the other room, and hands him the phone.

A LONG time later, the Pope rejoins the Prophet. He apologizes for the long phone call and nervously asks the Prophet how much the charges will be.

The Prophet says "Don't worry about it; it's a local call".   

PS, no offence meant to any Catholics out there.  I actually have a lot of respect for Pope Francis.😉 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Scott

[Madam_Mim]

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right? 

And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received.
But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

 

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right? 

And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received.
But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

 

This was always my problem with the Moroni Promise. Missionaries present it as a kind of "panacea to doubt", but when you think about it it's not so simple. Like you say, the world is full of people who "know" that the doctrines they profess are true. And since some of those doctrines contradict each other we are force to accept that (however sincere they may be) at least some of these people are mistaken. The answer you'll get from a missionary (and from the equivalent in other faiths) will be something like: "Don't put your trust in what we or anyone else say: ask the Spirit."  But this doesn't actually help very much: if other people can be mistaken about what they think the Spirit (i.e. God) is leading them to "know", is it not possible that we could be mistaken too?

Edited March 28, 2019 by Jamie123

[Guest Mores]

5 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right? 

And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received.
But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

This goes to the basic reason we even have a mortal existence.  Are you familiar with wave physics?  Resonance?  If not, ask and I can explain.

There is this thing called "truth".  Things as they really are and as they really will be.  If we look at truth as a sound such as a musical note, then we also understand things like harmony and being "on key" or "in tune".  

We ourselves vibrate a different frequency.  Some are closer to the truth than others.  But when we change ourselves to the same frequency as truth, we feel resonance.  Upon hearing something truly profound, we often say,"That resonates with me."  It is that feeling of resonance that helps us find the truth.  I say "helps" because there are many caveats/conditions/exceptions that we learn as we mature and explore the world and experience life.

The reason we're here in a mortal life is to see how we well can attune ourselves to the truth.  Even if we never achieve perfection in this life, we can learn to "bend" ourselves to the truth a lot.  But too many will never bend.  Those that bend a little better than others have more of an advantage spiritually. Others bend towards the sound of error.  And they will be at a disadvantage spiritually.

Because everyone is different, we will have different spiritual progress and different spiritual results.  Do we have a spirit that will bend towards truth?  Or error?  We will resonate with ourselves (hence many people say "you need to be true to yourself") without a problem.  But who can change themselves to a universal truth?  Who can first recognize it.

This is why many people are not "told" they're on the wrong path.

1) That faith is the right path for them because that is as much as they can bend (as much truth as they can accept or handle).
2) They are actually told, but they simply choose to bend and resonate to a different frequency -- even if that frequency is error.

[unixknight]

5 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right? 

And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received.
But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

 

At the end of the day, when I'm making a personal choice on where to place my faith and what I believe, I can only go by what I personally know.  

I don't know how to account for the Baptist, Catholic, Muslim or Jew who says he/she has had a personal experience from God that led them to where they are.  I don't feel like I need to.  It doesn't threaten or detract from my own experience at all.  Why should it?  There's room in my beliefs for all of that.  What I know is that God spoke to me in a way uniquely effective in convincing me, and I listened.  My testimony is not meant to convert anyone else.  It was given to convert me, personally.  As for anyone else in any other belief... I don't know what went on in their heart or mind.  I don't know what God said to them.  I wasn't there.

I was there when God showed me what He wanted for me to do.  Nothing else in my personal history quite compares to that experience, and so I trust it.  

Of course, as a software developer, I'm used to thinking about alternatives.  "What if it wasn't what I thought it was?"  I've had people try to tell me that.  I've heard it form other Christians that it must have been from the Devil and not God, because surely God would have led me to be a Protestant/Catholic/whatever the person was.  Well, if that's so, then that would have to mean that I do not have the ability to distinguish between the voice of the Devil and the voice of my Creator.  That notion doesn't make sense to me at all. 

I've been told it was just some sort of hallucination by people who weren't there and who have precisely -zero- knowledge of the state of my psyche, my brain or my physiology.  Well, I don't find that to be likely either since I wasn't on any mind altering chemicals, have no medical history of such things, have no family history of such things, and it would have to mean I had a very specific hallucination at a very specific time that just happened to coincide with the exact moment in my life where such a change would have drastically altered my trajectory as it would have at no other point in my personal history, and hasn't happened since.

So that's what I know and I trust it.  Other peoples' experiences are other peoples' experiences.  I can reasonably say nothing more about them.

How does that impact you?  It isn't meant to convince you.  You're right to ask those questions.  If I were to tell you my story, you truly would have no reason to take my word for it over someone else's.  I suppose it could be that you hear enough conversion stories that you feel inspired to ask of God yourself.  James 1:5.  

[estradling75]

6 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right? 

And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received.
But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

 

Depends entirely on what you mean by proof...

Let me refer back to a prior statement I made... There are lots of things in this life we can not prove scientifically but we accept as true anyways.  Here is an example..  Love.

There is not a Love particle.  We can not put love in a beaker and measure it.  When science tries to "Prove" love they usually end up in Brain Chemistry and Hormones which is not love. But it is about as close as we get scientifically.  Thus Love can not be proven...

Yet tons of people will testify that Love is Real. (I would)  You ask them to 'prove" it and they will very likely have a powerful moving personal story that they take as proof.  This is not a scientific proof... this is a personal proof.  Those that do not believe in love will find it easy to ignore or discount.

Sometimes those that believe in Love and even claim powerful experiences with it will to justify horrible things in the name of LOVE...  Does someone else abuse of it invalidate it for everyone else?  I would hope not because that makes for a loveless world.

The Book of Mormon Promise is not a setup for a scientific proof... it is a setup for a personal proof. A personal proof that God answers.  That is a hugely powerful thing to have, but it is not scientific and it is not a guarantee of the person using it well.

 

[Madam_Mim]

@estradling75 I get what you're saying. But I assume god is not just an emotion or a feeling. So if he wanted to, couldn't he do something more convincing than making people "feel" his existence or talking to people through prayer? 

 

3 hours ago, unixknight said:

So that's what I know and I trust it.  Other peoples' experiences are other peoples' experiences.  I can reasonably say nothing more about them.

How does that impact you?  It isn't meant to convince you.  You're right to ask those questions.  If I were to tell you my story, you truly would have no reason to take my word for it over someone else's.  I suppose it could be that you hear enough conversion stories that you feel inspired to ask of God yourself.  James 1:5.  

I don't doubt that you've had this experience (and again, thanks for sharing). A few days ago, when I asked for your reasons for being so convinced about your belief, I didn't ask to somehow get convinced by those answers. I was only curious and reading them made me wish I could experience that too. Not because I have a desire to believe in a god but just to be able to comprehend what you were feeling. It made me wonder if I would suddenly be completely sure there is a god too or if I would think "weeell... it's still just a feeling after all".

Anyway, what I wanted to say is: I don't "blame" people from different religions for being equally convinced that they're following the right religion - I just don't get why god (if I just assume there is one) is making this so unnecessarily complicated for all of us.

 

4 hours ago, Mores said:

This is why many people are not "told" they're on the wrong path.

1) That faith is the right path for them because that is as much as they can bend (as much truth as they can accept or handle).
2) They are actually told, but they simply choose to bend and resonate to a different frequency -- even if that frequency is error.

Sorry for all the "god-criticism" today, but that first reason you mentioned doesn't make sense to me: So someone prays to god. God answers. God is aware that this person is not following the right church. He doesn't tell, because that person couldn't handle the truth. After death that person will get punished for following the "wrong" church (if we assume that person knew about the LDS church but rejected it). 

[Jamie123]

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Depends entirely on what you mean by proof...

Let me refer back to a prior statement I made... There are lots of things in this life we can not prove scientifically but we accept as true anyways.  Here is an example..  Love.

There is not a Love particle.  We can not put love in a beaker and measure it.  When science tries to "Prove" love they usually end up in Brain Chemistry and Hormones which is not love. But it is about as close as we get scientifically.  Thus Love can not be proven...

Yet tons of people will testify that Love is Real. (I would)  You ask them to 'prove" it and they will very likely have a powerful moving personal story that they take as proof.  This is not a scientific proof... this is a personal proof.  Those that do not believe in love will find it easy to ignore or discount.

Sometimes those that believe in Love and even claim powerful experiences with it will to justify horrible things in the name of LOVE...  Does someone else abuse of it invalidate it for everyone else?  I would hope not because that makes for a loveless world.

The Book of Mormon Promise is not a setup for a scientific proof... it is a setup for a personal proof. A personal proof that God answers.  That is a hugely powerful thing to have, but it is not scientific and it is not a guarantee of the person using it well.

 

Yes, but love is an abstract thing. Someone who doesn't believe in love is in a sense as correct as someone who does. It depends on individuals' models of reality. It is like asking (If you'll excuse me returning to statistics) whether Frequentism or Bayesianism is correct.

The things we are talking about though here are not abstract, but concrete matters of material fact. When Mormons tell you to "pray to for the spirit to reveal the truth", the "truth" they are referring to is not some wooly idea about "God loves you", but a whether Joseph Smith was a prophet, whether he really did dig up golden plates, whether 7th Century Israelites migrated to America.

There is a noumeal* reality behind these things, which is as true for any person as it is from any other person, independent of how they view the world. If Smith really was a prophet, and if he really did dig up gold plates, that is as true for the LDS nonmember as it is for the member. The LDS member would be right and the nonmember wrong.

*I've never actually read Kant, so I'm not totally sure I'm using this word correctly. By "noumenal" thing, I mean something that has a reality independent of what anyone thinks about it. If there are any philosophers here, please put me straight!

Edited March 28, 2019 by Jamie123

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

@estradling75 I get what you're saying. But I assume god is not just an emotion or a feeling. So if he wanted to, couldn't he do something more convincing than making people "feel" his existence or talking to people through prayer? 

 

He could...  Perhaps you should ask him why he does not

3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Yes, but love is an abstract thing.

Everything is abstract... until you can prove it..  And even then it is still abstract to people who choose not to believe it.

 

[Jamie123]

30 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Everything is abstract... until you can prove it..  And even then it is still abstract to people who choose not to believe it.

Hmmmm....if you can prove something, then it must by definition be true. That is what "proof" means. (I'm talking about real proof here - not what passes for proof in courts of law.) If someone makes a conscious decision not to believe it, despite having had the proof of it demonstrated to them, then they still really know it is true and their disbelief is a sham.

If you are talking about someone who has not yet received or understood the proof of something, then you do have a point; for him/her the truth of the matter is undecided. But I would suggest that even for that person the reality does exist - the uncertainty is not aleatory but epistemic. But if we follow that line, we're going to get into the Uncertainty Principle, Bell's theorem and a lot of other hard-to-understand stuff, which only really applies to quantum level things - not matters like the existence or otherwise of Joseph Smith's golden plates. Things like that are either true or not true, irrespective of what anyone believes or "knows" about them.

As an aside, what people often mean by "proof" is actually "argument". Many years ago an Elder told me: "We could prove to you that the BoM is true, but that would deny you the opportunity to show faith". Really??? I saw a video from FARMS a few years ago where a professional LDS archaeologist admitted he couldn't "prove" the BoM. If he couldn't, I don't think a 19-year-old wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate could! For sure he could have parroted off some argument he'd learned, but that's not really the same thing as proving it.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Jamie123

[unixknight]

38 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

I don't doubt that you've had this experience (and again, thanks for sharing). A few days ago, when I asked for your reasons for being so convinced about your belief, I didn't ask to somehow get convinced by those answers. I was only curious and reading them made me wish I could experience that too. Not because I have a desire to believe in a god but just to be able to comprehend what you were feeling. It made me wonder if I would suddenly be completely sure there is a god too or if I would think "weeell... it's still just a feeling after all".

Anyway, what I wanted to say is: I don't "blame" people from different religions for being equally convinced that they're following the right religion - I just don't get why god (if I just assume there is one) is making this so unnecessarily complicated for all of us.

Yah I know you weren't asking to be convinced.  I just used 'you' in my reply to illustrate what I was getting at. 

If you were to experience something like that, in whatever form it takes, I imagine how you interpret that experience is entirely up to you.  The key to all of this is agency... We have to be 100% free to determine how we interpret, react and act on these things.

For instance... If somehow I could show the world some form of absolute, irrefutable evidence of God's existence and of my belief system in particular, then on some level people would feel sort of obligated to accept it.  That isn't agency.  Further, it would require absolutely no faith.  What I mean is, it takes no faith at all to know that cats exist, that the Earth is round, or that 1+1=2.  We know these things to be true and require no 'faith' per se.  We just accept them because they're right in front of us.

Could God provide such evidence of His own existence?  Absolutely. Some may argue that He already has.  I don't think He has, because we need at least a tiny bit of faith to find Him.  Why?  Because faith takes courage.  Faith takes a certain humility that says "I accept that this is true, even though it hasn't gone out of its way to convince me."  Humility is the most basic component of Christianity.  To believe in God at all is to have enough humility to understand who we are and who He is.  We demonstrate that humility through faith, and that faith is then rewarded with certainty of Him.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Hmmmm....if you can prove something, then it must by definition be true. That is what "proof" means. (I'm talking about real proof here - not what passes for proof in courts of law.) If someone makes a conscious decision not to believe it, despite having had the proof of it demonstrated to them, then they still really know it is true and their disbelief is a sham.

No, not really. I don't think you can point to anything outside of a highly artificial situation or purely definitional linguistic matter that can be "proven" in this sense. Syllogisms like "All dogs are mammals and Fido is a dog, so therefore Fido is a mammal" are almost geometrically valid proofs, but that is simply a word game. I say that "foo" means "five", so therefore two plus three equals foo. You rarely or never get this in any real-life situation (maybe in law, but like I said, not in real-life situations).

The very idea of being able to "prove" something "beyond doubt" is an old Greek philosophical abstraction. The Greeks loved their abstractions, and used them to invent a lot of ideas that don't really interface with our experience of reality: Insubstantial spiritual substance, horses that are more horsey than any actual living horse, and so forth. If you want to understand why LDS doctrine departs so radically from traditional Christian doctrine in certain places, the observation that modern traditional Christian thought is highly derivative of Greek neo-Platonism goes a long way toward explaining the divide. (Thanks, Augustine!)

I mean, seriously, can you even imagine a Middle Ages Christian philosopher seriously contemplating that God the Father has a physical body, with arms and legs and feet and eyes and a mouth and a beard? Or that God himself might just come right on down from heaven some day and talk face to face with some farm boy? For those of that mindset, this is far beyond radical. More like laughable. It's no wonder Joseph Smith was not taken seriously by any theologian of his day and area. Think of how absurd you would sound to people in the time of King Alfred (assuming you spoke Old English), peasants and royalty alike, if you tried to describe modern life to them. They would laugh at you and call you mad.

[estradling75]

27 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Hmmmm....if you can prove something, then it must by definition be true. That is what "proof" means. (I'm talking about real proof here - not what passes for proof in courts of law.) If someone makes a conscious decision not to believe it, despite having had the proof of it demonstrated to them, then they still really know it is true and their disbelief is a sham.

Looks like you missed the point of the very first quoted post you made of me.  My very first statement in that post "It depends entirely on what you mean by proof"  Please go back and re-read the post until you realize just nonsensical your current post is as a response to my point.

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

He doesn't tell, because that person couldn't handle the truth. After death that person will get punished for following the "wrong" church.

That's not how it works either.  God gives just enough truth for us to take the next step.  If that person never takes the next step, why would he be given the knowledge to make 10 steps?

Another principle at work here is that we are all accountable for what we do with the light and knowledge we are given.  If we're given enough knowledge to take 10 steps, and we only take one of those 10, then we're punished for not taking the other 9.  But if we're only given enough to take one step, and we don't, then we're punished for not taking one step.

[anatess2]

12 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

What I still wonder is how this test (Moroni's promise) is proof for anything? I assume that in general you would agree that faith, no matter how convinced you may be, doesn't necessarily lead to truth, right?   

Not right.  Faith when applied honestly and humbly with a sincere desire to know God will ALWAYS lead to truth.

But, just because you're not in the "right Church" doesn't mean you don't have truth.  And, similarly, just because you're in the "right Church" doesn't mean you have a testimony of that truth.

The journey is in the honest, humble, sincere plea to God for truth in all things.  Truth will only come when one is ready to hear it.  Because, with the gift of truth comes the responsibility of covenants.  That is why, we learn line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little such that we are ready to accept and act on it.

 

12 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

And please don't take this the wrong way - I have no idea what you experience when you pray about this and I'm not trying to negate the answer you've received.
But I obviously can't tell the difference between your experiences and those of people from other religions who also receive answers from god when they're praying. Are you all talking to the same god? And why doesn't he tell them that their religion is wrong?

 

Each person hears the Spirit differently.  Some describe it as a warmth in the bosom, others describe it is a comfort, others describe it as a whisper, others describe it as peaceful.  I hear the Spirit like a certain clicking of the brain when my brain lies satiated in cool water... ahhh.... I'm botching that description.  I've tried and tried to explain it into words but it's impossible. I fail at it every time. 

So, I told you before that I was raised in the Catholic faith, right?  That journey in the Catholic faith was actually VERY VERY important and very instrumental to where I am now.  I was a very sincere devout Catholic and I have pleaded with God for confirmation and He has confirmed certain truths and very important truths.  If God would have told me to leave the Catholic Church, I would have been lost.  I was in a country of 85% Catholics.  I walked past the LDS building every time I went to school.  We played basketball at the LDS grounds.  We talked to the "Americans carrying purses" a lot... but that wasn't the time for me.  That time was for me to learn the fundamentals of my faith through Catholic teaching in harmony with the teaching of my parents.  I had the Spirit confirm truths to me.  None of those truths were negated when it was finally the time to challenge me with the restored gospel.  Rather, those truths were built upon, clarified, and magnified.   But looking back, I now see how God prepared me for today.  For example, I don't know why I've always had this dream of living in the USA.  I am a Filipino Patriot.  It runs thick in my veins.  I had a comfortable life in the Philippines. But for some reason, I was fascinated by America so much so that I had to be here.  I just had to.  I was in 2nd grade when I told my teacher - I'm not finishing class, I'm flying to America.  There were other big things - like my rebellious spirit.  My family is very devout Catholic and my dad is my hero.  I wouldn't dare to be against his favor.  But, I went through some dark periods in my life that forced me to rebel against his rules.  My boyfriend at the time was the reason I made it to the US.  Then 1 week before our wedding, I walked out on it.  No irreconcilable reason or anything.  I simply felt God did not want me to marry.  I couldn't tell anybody about that because they would think I'm cuckoo!  3 years later, I met my now husband.  LDS.  We got married, 3 years later, we still don't have kids.  I thought for sure I was barren.  Then a year later I got baptized LDS.  A few months after that I got pregnant... just in time to be able to get sealed in the Temple 3 weeks before my child was born - born under covenant.

Anyway... none of these things were evident to me at the time they were happening.  There are tons more things like that in my life that did not make sense when I was at that particular moment.  But looking back now, I see a beautiful pattern emerge of all those little promptings that I listened to and the little promptings that I didn't listen to and what impact they had on where I am now.  I have a sure testimony of God's hand in my life.