Jesus appearance to Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow

[dprh]

I don't see 2nd Corinthians as forbidding solitary visits from Jesus or Heavenly Father.  I see it as saying that you don't necessarily have to accept the word of a single person if they say they were visited.  I had an institute teacher (gospel classes for college-age students) who held the position that as members of our Church, we do not really need to have a testimony of Joseph's First Vision because there was only one witness.  But like @Moresquoted in John 8 that Jesus testified of Himself and His Father was the second witness, I think the Holy Ghost can be our second witness when praying about Joseph's First Vision.

 

[anatess2]

Hi @Robert Rost, I'm going to make this thread so much easier and simpler for you.  Instead of looking at Matt 24 or the letter to the Corinthians, I think the more relevant scripture for you is Matt 16.  This is actually what we're talking about here.

None of us here can prove to you that Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith or Lorenzo Snow.  None of us here can prove to you that the Book of Mormon is true.  As a matter of fact, none of us here can prove to you that Jesus is God.  And neither can the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists.  So, when you ask any Christian - prove to me that Jesus is God - what do they say?  Do they whip out the Bible and show you passages and tell you what they mean and then tell you if you don't believe what they say then you're going to hell?  Do they tell you to attend their Church and listen to their pastors and follow what they say?  Or do they say, ask God?  Because, if it's any other answer besides Ask God, then they're really just playing on a fool's errand to get you to believe them without knowing for yourself the truth of the matter.

And that's why I believe Matt 16 is the more appropriate scripture.  When asked, "who do people say Jesus is?", they all have different answers.  Even Peter used other people's answers until Jesus made him ponder on the question for himself.  And that's when Peter finally said Jesus is the Christ.  And to this, Jesus told him that Peter's knowledge is not something he received from other people or the scriptures but rather a revelation from God Himself.

So, did Jesus appear to Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, Stephen, Mary Magdalene, Paul, etc. etc.?  Nobody can tell you the truth of those things.  You will have to ask God Himself to reveal the truth to you just like He revealed the truth to Peter as recounted in Matt 16.

 

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, Robert Rost said:

Well then why do so many Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists oppose LDS doctrine as heresy and label it as non-Christian.   Seems to me if LDS doctrine and beliefs are scripturally supported there wouldn't be ANY opposition.   The baptized Christians who oppose it far out number the 11 or 12 million LDS adherents.

Since when did the popular vote of man deterimine God's Truth?

[Robert Rost]

On 5/30/2019 at 2:25 PM, dprh said:

I don't see 2nd Corinthians as forbidding solitary visits from Jesus or Heavenly Father.  I see it as saying that you don't necessarily have to accept the word of a single person if they say they were visited.  I think the Holy Ghost can be our second witness when praying about Joseph's First Vision.

 

The Holy Ghost or God's lack of judgement against Bin Laden and Al-Bagdadi.  Both of them killed non-Muslims, which if you consider Christianity to be true, that makes Islam a false religion.  So why would God allow pagans or infidels to kill Christians on September 11th with no action taken against their tribe, UNLESS what they are killing for is true.   If God said that He will fight our battles for us then failure to earthquake them out of existence for killing for a false religion would make His word invalid, or validate Muslim beliefs and killing for that belief.

Now here is my take personally, I used to be LDS until a baptist question me about Brigham Young's statements about men on the moon.  Upon asking the Sugar House branch president about this, he threatened me with abduction.  His exact words "We'll haul you in".   Seems to me that the person he really should threaten is the baptist female who was getting me to reaffirm my belief system.  He did not, which makes me question the concept that all ministers in the LDS faith are called of God.  I am an honorable discharged veteran of the military so I can say that I don't think he was threatening the right person.  And given that freedom of religion is guaranteed I have a right to question doctrine and validate it.  If you consider that people in the Old Testament were killed for willfully following a false prophet, I not only have a right to reaffirm and validate a prophet's authenticity, I have a moral obligation which if I fail to fulfill would cost the lives of my family.

Essentially what you guys are doing is undermining people's obligation to authenticate Smith to the point it could cost them their lives.  And worst of all you mislead your own families.  You are traitors to your own families in getting them to undermine God's Word.  But so do the Baptists and Methodists, as they teach doctrines which are in complete contradiction with the Bible.   So, you are no worse or no better than they.

[anatess2]

5 hours ago, Robert Rost said:

The Holy Ghost or God's lack of judgement against Bin Laden and Al-Bagdadi.  Both of them killed non-Muslims, which if you consider Christianity to be true, that makes Islam a false religion.  So why would God allow pagans or infidels to kill Christians on September 11th with no action taken against their tribe, UNLESS what they are killing for is true.   If God said that He will fight our battles for us then failure to earthquake them out of existence for killing for a false religion would make His word invalid, or validate Muslim beliefs and killing for that belief.

Now here is my take personally, I used to be LDS until a baptist question me about Brigham Young's statements about men on the moon.  Upon asking the Sugar House branch president about this, he threatened me with abduction.  His exact words "We'll haul you in".   Seems to me that the person he really should threaten is the baptist female who was getting me to reaffirm my belief system.  He did not, which makes me question the concept that all ministers in the LDS faith are called of God.  I am an honorable discharged veteran of the military so I can say that I don't think he was threatening the right person.  And given that freedom of religion is guaranteed I have a right to question doctrine and validate it.  If you consider that people in the Old Testament were killed for willfully following a false prophet, I not only have a right to reaffirm and validate a prophet's authenticity, I have a moral obligation which if I fail to fulfill would cost the lives of my family.

Essentially what you guys are doing is undermining people's obligation to authenticate Smith to the point it could cost them their lives.  And worst of all you mislead your own families.  You are traitors to your own families in getting them to undermine God's Word.  But so do the Baptists and Methodists, as they teach doctrines which are in complete contradiction with the Bible.   So, you are no worse or no better than they.

You got a really strange understanding of what God’s Judgement looks like.  Did you forget that Jesus was killed by the Romans with the Jews yelling out to crucify him?   And they even told Jesus that if He’s really the Son of God then he could just save himself.  Did he? 

Yes, it is your obligation to authenticate Joseph Smith’s claim.  Nobody can authenticate it for you.  You have to kneel down and ASK GOD to reveal the truth to you.  Now, why aren’t you doing so?

[Jane_Doe]

18 hours ago, Robert Rost said:

The Holy Ghost or God's lack of judgement against Bin Laden and Al-Bagdadi.  Both of them killed non-Muslims, which if you consider Christianity to be true, that makes Islam a false religion.  So why would God allow pagans or infidels to kill Christians on September 11th with no action taken against their tribe, UNLESS what they are killing for is true.   If God said that He will fight our battles for us then failure to earthquake them out of existence for killing for a false religion would make His word invalid, or validate Muslim beliefs and killing for that belief.

Now here is my take personally, I used to be LDS until a baptist question me about Brigham Young's statements about men on the moon.  Upon asking the Sugar House branch president about this, he threatened me with abduction.  His exact words "We'll haul you in".   Seems to me that the person he really should threaten is the baptist female who was getting me to reaffirm my belief system.  He did not, which makes me question the concept that all ministers in the LDS faith are called of God.  I am an honorable discharged veteran of the military so I can say that I don't think he was threatening the right person.  And given that freedom of religion is guaranteed I have a right to question doctrine and validate it.  If you consider that people in the Old Testament were killed for willfully following a false prophet, I not only have a right to reaffirm and validate a prophet's authenticity, I have a moral obligation which if I fail to fulfill would cost the lives of my family.

Essentially what you guys are doing is undermining people's obligation to authenticate Smith to the point it could cost them their lives.  And worst of all you mislead your own families.  You are traitors to your own families in getting them to undermine God's Word.  But so do the Baptists and Methodists, as they teach doctrines which are in complete contradiction with the Bible.   So, you are no worse or no better than they.

You logic hear is... very strange.  You seem to jump rapidly from topic to unrelated topic.  Hence I'm not sense sure what your real actual focus is here to respond to.

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

You logic hear is... very strange.  You seem to jump rapidly from topic to unrelated topic.  Hence I'm not sense sure what your real actual focus is here to respond to.

He's not really interested in discussing anything.  He's just throwing a bunch of crap on a wall and seeing what sticks.  If he falls flat on his face, he ignores it and moves on to something he believes will stick.

IOW, he's just a troll.  Yes, we've been patient.  We've worked at logic and opening the scriptures.  We've confounded him again and again.  So, we're allowed to judge him on this.  He's a troll.  I don't care if he''s an anti-Mormon or not.  He's simply not interested in a real back and forth.  Definition of a troll.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Mores

[Anddenex]

On 5/31/2019 at 3:24 PM, Robert Rost said:

The Holy Ghost or God's lack of judgement against Bin Laden and Al-Bagdadi.  Both of them killed non-Muslims, which if you consider Christianity to be true, that makes Islam a false religion.  So why would God allow pagans or infidels to kill Christians on September 11th with no action taken against their tribe, UNLESS what they are killing for is true.   If God said that He will fight our battles for us then failure to earthquake them out of existence for killing for a false religion would make His word invalid, or validate Muslim beliefs and killing for that belief.

Now here is my take personally, I used to be LDS until a baptist question me about Brigham Young's statements about men on the moon.  Upon asking the Sugar House branch president about this, he threatened me with abduction.  His exact words "We'll haul you in".   Seems to me that the person he really should threaten is the baptist female who was getting me to reaffirm my belief system.  He did not, which makes me question the concept that all ministers in the LDS faith are called of God.  I am an honorable discharged veteran of the military so I can say that I don't think he was threatening the right person.  And given that freedom of religion is guaranteed I have a right to question doctrine and validate it.  If you consider that people in the Old Testament were killed for willfully following a false prophet, I not only have a right to reaffirm and validate a prophet's authenticity, I have a moral obligation which if I fail to fulfill would cost the lives of my family.

Essentially what you guys are doing is undermining people's obligation to authenticate Smith to the point it could cost them their lives.  And worst of all you mislead your own families.  You are traitors to your own families in getting them to undermine God's Word.  But so do the Baptists and Methodists, as they teach doctrines which are in complete contradiction with the Bible.   So, you are no worse or no better than they.

The Holy Ghost or God's lack of judgement against Bin Laden and Al-Bagdadi. 

This doesn't provide any logical or faithful premise. This is what is called a "false dichotomy." Look it up so you can gather your thoughts and premise a little better.

Both of them killed non-Muslims, which if you consider Christianity to be true, that makes Islam a false religion.

If a person considers or believes in Christianity any other religion that is not Christian would be a false religion. The idea of killing a non-believer and being a false religion is moot, irrelevant to what make a religion false.

So why would God allow pagans or infidels to kill Christians on September 11th with no action taken against their tribe, UNLESS what they are killing for is true. 

Another false dichotomy. It wasn't only Christians who were killed on September 11th. You will once again want to think more thoroughly through your logic.

 If God said that He will fight our battles for us then failure to earthquake them out of existence for killing for a false religion would make His word invalid, or validate Muslim beliefs and killing for that belief.

I would have thought you would have used something more dramatic than an earthquake.  What about a meteor shower, now that would be more epic! How God validates appears to be very different than what you are presenting.

Now here is my take personally, I used to be LDS until a baptist question me about Brigham Young's statements about men on the moon. 

OK, you let the opinion of a prophet (and we know prophets have their own thoughts and opinions). You might want to read one more time the Parable of the Sower.

Upon asking the Sugar House branch president about this, he threatened me with abduction.  His exact words "We'll haul you in".   

I doubt this very much. As of now, your thoughts and opinions haven't been very genuine. I would think this experience follows the same suit.

Seems to me that the person he really should threaten is the baptist female who was getting me to reaffirm my belief system.  He did not, which makes me question the concept that all ministers in the LDS faith are called of God. 

As I doubt this experience, the reality though is that he shouldn't threaten anyone. Reaffirm your belief system -- Parable of the Sower (excellent parable by the way).  How a person threatens someone is unrelated to being called of God. David was called of God, and did some horrible things. But I doubt once again you thought through this premise.

I am an honorable discharged veteran of the military so I can say that I don't think he was threatening the right person. 

Thank you for your service; although a person's service doesn't specify who should or should not be threatened.

And given that freedom of religion is guaranteed I have a right to question doctrine and validate it.  If you consider that people in the Old Testament were killed for willfully following a false prophet, I not only have a right to reaffirm and validate a prophet's authenticity, I have a moral obligation which if I fail to fulfill would cost the lives of my family.

Well, yes of course. No one here said otherwise. We all have the same moral obligation. We all also have the same moral obligation to recognize BS when we read it.

Essentially what you guys are doing is undermining people's obligation to authenticate Smith to the point it could cost them their lives.

This is clearly false. It is also my obligation to authenticate your words, and I have found them to be wanting.

And worst of all you mislead your own families.  You are traitors to your own families in getting them to undermine God's Word.  But so do the Baptists and Methodists, as they teach doctrines which are in complete contradiction with the Bible.   So, you are no worse or no better than they.

I think this emoticon correctly responds to these last statements --