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Traveler

How did we get here?

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Before I stat this post and thread I want to make a couple of confessions.  First – I will not following up after tomorrow for some time.  I made a commitment that I intend to keep.  It is not my preference – this is a great ski season and my commitment is going to interrupt it.   Do not be concerned this is not a bad thing – just not what I would plan if it was up to me.  The second is that I believe this thread to be related to another thread I intend to title as the “Temptations of Christ” in the LDS Gospel Discussion” forum – I am making two threads because they are two topics, that though related (to me) and are tightly coupled in ways that may not be obvious -- I do not intend to try to explain why rather than bring up what I think are important issues.  BTW this also relates a bit to my post titled “Why politicians are wealthy”.

Finally:  I did vote for Trump in 2016.  Not because I was excited about him but because I saw him as a “Washington outsider” that would shake things up in Washington – making life a little more difficult for swamp creatures.   I hoped he would be elected but then replaced after one term.  At the time – it seemed like a good and viable idea.  What I did not count on was how imbedded, evil and corrupt the parasitic swamp creatures were into life blood our freedoms, liberties and democratic process of our nation.

I find myself siding mostly with Alan Dershowitz.    I am appalled with the corruption on such display – mostly by the Democrats.  The House preceding has been an appalling affront to justice.  Even if Trump is guilty of all that they say – their process and handling is, as I see it, both unjust and tantamount to treason.   On the other hand, there is no doubt in my mind that Trump is a narcissist and likely a sociopath.   

So I am understood here are definitions:

Narcissist:

Quote

“A narcissist is essentially somebody who is self-­obsessed to an extreme degree,” Darrel Turner, PhD, a forensic psychologist in Louisiana, tells Health. “This is someone who has a high level of confidence and belief in themselves, but to a very unhealthy and harmful extent—to the point at which it actually distorts their sense of reality about themselves, other people, and the world around them. It can also lead them into manipulative and exploitative behavior, because they will prioritize their own needs above anyone else’s.”

Sociopath:

Quote

Sociopaths—people who are actually diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder—have many narcissistic characteristics, but this psychological disorder is typically much more dangerous. “Whereas a narcissist may occasionally harm people as a consequence of their self­-prioritization, the harm they cause to others is usually unintentional,” explains Turner. “More often than not, it’s a consequence of their self­-obsession rather than the motivator which drives them. A sociopath, on the other hand, essentially ‘gets off’ by hurting other people.”

So here we are.  The Democrats should lose, ought to lose and better lose; simply because their efforts are the greatest threat to the freedoms and liberties I think I have ever seen for our country.

But If Trump wins – He will think himself invincible and convincing a sociopath that they are invincible is never a good idea.  I see no possible good outcome from this impeachment.  Sometimes; I am most impressed at how cleaver Satan can set a table such that there is no possible good to come from it.  My only hope is that G-d will have compassion and mercy on this country and somehow thwart what is otherwise the enviable result – regardless of whatever mankind plans to be possible.

 

The Traveler

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The terms "narcissist" and "sociopath" have lost all meaning. I take that back. What they mean in 2020 is "Person A is a meany face and said things I don't like." Or, "Person A is my ex, and they did things that hurt me." In reality, you and I aren't qualified to make those kind of assessments of someone. In fact, only a trained mental health counselor is after interviewing the person several times. 

Just because someone is selfish, or mean or abrasive hardly means they are a "sociopath" or a "narcissist".  

Edited by MormonGator

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The terms "narcissist" and "sociopath" have lost all meaning.

Indeed.  The most recent example being Traveler's post, where he gives the dictionary definition as "people who are actually diagnosed", and then assigns the label to Trump, absent an actual diagnosis.

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44 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Indeed.  The most recent example being Traveler's post, where he gives the dictionary definition as "people who are actually diagnosed", and then assigns the label to Trump, absent an actual diagnosis.

Since you insist - I will give a partial reply with an example.  The example is Trump calling Elizabeth Warren, Pocahontas.  First - this is done without any concern for indigenous peoples that were on this land before us.  The second - is that this is done for the single purpose of causing harm - which he obviously delights in doing.

I could be wrong - but perhaps someone would provide an example where Trump has said or done anything in public for anyone that did not directly benefit him.   Or an example where Trump has ever apologized for causing someone else harm - even by mistake.

I could be wrong and perhaps you know the better  -  but to me the first excuse of a sociopath is the desire or right to and then delight in revenge.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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26 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Since you insist - I will give a partial reply with an example.  The example is Trump calling Elizabeth Warren, Pocahontas.  First - this is done without any concern for indigenous peoples that were on this land before us.  The second - is that this is done for the single purpose of causing harm - which he obviously delights in doing.

I could be wrong - but perhaps someone would provide an example where Trump has said or done anything in public for anyone that did not directly benefit him.   Or an example where Trump has ever apologized for causing someone else harm - even by mistake.

I could be wrong and perhaps you know the better  -  but to me the first excuse of a sociopath is the desire or right to and then delight in revenge.

 

The Traveler

What you described makes him classless and rude, not a sociopath. 

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10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

apparently classless and rude... is the new sociopath...

Sad but true. Now "sociopath" means "person I don't like." 

And I'm not a Trump supporter by any stretch. Him (and sadly, many of his followers/zealots/acolytes) are grown up high school bullies. But just because I think that way about them-and I do-doesn't mean they are sociopaths. 

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Sad but true. Now "sociopath" means "person I don't like." 

And I'm not a Trump supporter by any stretch. Him (and sadly, many of his followers/zealots/acolytes) are grown up high school bullies. But just because I think that way about them-and I do-doesn't mean they are sociopaths. 

Well, you don’t have to be so OCD about it . . . :nownow:

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I could be wrong - but perhaps someone would provide an example where Trump has said or done anything in public for anyone that did not directly benefit him.   Or an example where Trump has ever apologized for causing someone else harm - even by mistake.

Be careful of unrighteous judgment.  Trump is a public guy ever since he was a kid.  Everything he does is scrutinized by the public even when it is private.  That said, Trump has done many things in private that the public does not publicize to add to their image of Trump because ... it doesn't sell newspapers.  Here's a few thoughts from people whose lives he has touched that nobody talks about.


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't think you need a degree in psychology to see that Trump is a narcissist. Sociopath is a strong accusation, and I don't think anyone here is qualified to make that assessment. Personally, I think a sociopathic president would have us months-deep in a full-blown ground war by now. 

This whole affair has been difficult to watch. The House did the right thing by starting the impeachment proceedings (Mueller basically put the ball in their hands with his report), but I feel like they moved too fast and failed to use and enforce subpoena powers. It's like subpoenas don't mean anything anymore, and that problem pre-dates Trump. The GOP was never interested in holding a fair Senate trial. The burden was on the House to present a stronger case. 

Before the election, I said that a Trump victory might destroy the GOP. I haven't changed my mind. A day will come, in one year or five, when Trump will no longer be president. That day will be a reckoning for the GOP. They'll have to face what they turned themselves into for the sake of their dear leader's approval/endorsement. And whenever a Dem gets back to the White House, there will be some dangerous precedents in place for what an executive can get away with.

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2 hours ago, Godless said:

I don't think you need a degree in psychology to see that Trump is a narcissist. Sociopath is a strong accusation, and I don't think anyone here is qualified to make that assessment. Personally, I think a sociopathic president would have us months-deep in a full-blown ground war by now. 

This whole affair has been difficult to watch. The House did the right thing by starting the impeachment proceedings (Mueller basically put the ball in their hands with his report), but I feel like they moved too fast and failed to use and enforce subpoena powers. It's like subpoenas don't mean anything anymore, and that problem pre-dates Trump. The GOP was never interested in holding a fair Senate trial. The burden was on the House to present a stronger case. 

Before the election, I said that a Trump victory might destroy the GOP. I haven't changed my mind. A day will come, in one year or five, when Trump will no longer be president. That day will be a reckoning for the GOP. They'll have to face what they turned themselves into for the sake of their dear leader's approval/endorsement. And whenever a Dem gets back to the White House, there will be some dangerous precedents in place for what an executive can get away with.

I agree with your overall takeaway; especially your last paragraph.  I would perhaps quibble—or at least use caution with—the word “narcissist”.  Like “sociopath”, the word technically denotes a specific mental disorder.  People can have either sociopathic or narcissistic tendencies (or obsessive-compulsive, for that matter) without actually meriting an actual diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder or OCD.  

I’m also unconvinced that impeachment proceedings were warranted in the first place, since (as I understand it) the actual articles of impeachment bore virtually no relation to anything in the Mueller report.  The Dems have been talking impeachment since Trump was inaugurated, but knew they didn’t have anything; and even after the Mueller report weren’t ready to move forward on impeachment.  It wasn’t until this Ukraine phone call in late summer that (in desperation) they figured they finally had something they could hang a case on.  I’m not convinced the Senate had an obligation to hold a full trial on such patently politicized and technically deficient articles.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Be careful of unrighteous judgment.  Trump is a public guy ever since he was a kid.  Everything he does is scrutinized by the public even when it is private.  That said, Trump has done many things in private that the public does not publicize to add to their image of Trump because ... it doesn't sell newspapers.  Here's a few thoughts from people whose lives he has touched that nobody talks about.

When someone is running for a public office - we must make a judgment.  I agree that we ought to be careful.  For such things I employ several methods - but I do admit that I put a lot of stock from the advice of scripture.  One scripture I feel gives good insight is when Nicodemus said , "Does our law allow that we judge a man before we have heard him speak."

I understand this to mean that we listen carefully to what a person says.  Especially, that what they say, is consistent with their behavior.  And especially how they treat others.  You may be interested to know that one of the most notorious criminals and organized crime boss in the history of the USA (Al Capone) was a rather violent person that had many put to death and was not concerned such that he would kill himself when he felt like it.  And yet during the Great Depression he was very giving and helped the poor of Chicago - much of which was behind the seen. 

Also I employ the opportunity to share notes with professionals - I have a next door neighbor and a brother-in-law that are psychiatrists - and a sister-in-law that is a clinical psychologist. 

To be sure - our economy is much better off than had any Democrat associated with Washington had any influence.  They all predicted that the economy would be a disaster - and that the poor would be worse off than ever.  Trump has proven that the Democrats and most Republicans do not understand the economy very well at all.  And it would seem that the best program to help the poor is a strong economy and need for workers.  The same concerning foreign affairs.   But Trump has not drained the swamp - or for that matter even come close.  Under his watch it would seem that corruption and bad management has been uncovered (at least that which we all ready knew) - but to my knowledge, not a single individual has been held responsible for any of the corruption and bad management - not even one.  And who would have thought that someone would actually go after Hillary - But they would be a Democrat????

 

The Traveler

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8 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have a next door neighbor and a brother-in-law that are psychiatrists - and a sister-in-law that is a clinical psychologist. 

And this makes you qualified to diagnose Trump as a sociopath?

Why don't you understand how weak this line of reasoning is?  You should be withdrawing your label of 'sociopath' and saying things like "Ok, we armchair quarterbacks can't accurately diagnose a mental illness from someone we only see on TV, but I bet if he saw a professional, that would be the diagnosis."

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Why don't you understand how weak this line of reasoning is? 

In fairness to Traveler (who I do think is wrong, but is a nice guy) I think we all do things like this. I know I do. 

He's wrong in the big picture, but sometimes having a dad who is an attorney or a mom who fixed cars her entire life does provide you with some knowledge that the other guy might not have. 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

In fairness to Traveler (who I do think is wrong, but is a nice guy) I think we all do things like this. I know I do. 

He's wrong in the big picture, but sometimes having a dad who is an attorney or a mom who fixed cars her entire life does provide you with some knowledge that the other guy might not have. 

Right... but any doctor worth their degree would not make such a diagnoses based on media sound bites.  If they are they are  doing so they are not entitled to the assumption of expertise that such a doctor would normally be granted.. They are just another politically inclined random person

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

And this makes you qualified to diagnose Trump as a sociopath?

Why don't you understand how weak this line of reasoning is?  You should be withdrawing your label of 'sociopath' and saying things like "Ok, we armchair quarterbacks can't accurately diagnose a mental illness from someone we only see on TV, but I bet if he saw a professional, that would be the diagnosis."

 

If something waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and acts like a duck - I will say that I believe it is a duck.  I do not believe someone requires a PHD in Biology to be able to voice an opinion that something is likely a duck.  I am open to arguments - especially those that disagree.  In fact I welcome your input - Thank You!  I am very interested with how you perceive his behavior - especially if you can reference some tangible data and examples.  I offered one.

However, if the totality of your argument is that I am unqualified to identify things that look like a duck - I honestly do not see that as much of an argument.  I should apologize because I said I have no doubt of Trump's narcissism and being a sociopath - that was a misstatement - I should have said little doubt.  I am open to any better explanation for his public persona and character.   Perhaps we can agree that except for one or two Democratic candidates (that do not seem to have much of any support) --  Trump is likely to be the best realistic option available to the people.  But though I feel he may be the best candidate at this point - I am very concerned with what he will do if he thinks he is invincible.  

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Right... but any doctor worth their degree would not make such a diagnoses based on media sound bites.  If they are they are  doing so they are not entitled to the assumption of expertise that such a doctor would normally be granted.. They are just another politically inclined random person

I believe I understand your statement.  Never-the-less, I would not work for Donald Trump - nor would I encourage my daughter or sister to date him.  I have made every effort to be clear why I think and respond the way I do.   I do not hate Trump - I am not an never Trumper - I think Romney ought to be kicked out of office and investigated as much or more than Trump.  These are all thoughts and impressions.  I do understand that others see things differently.  I am very interested - not so much that an opinion is different but why.  But I am not so impressed in the notion that I should not have opinions of a politician's character because I lack a college degree to be able to properly have an opinion concerning someone's character.  

Now if someone has an opinion that Trump is of high moral character and is able to respect and be kind towards his perceived enemies and thus is qualified to represent someone of religious concerns (as I am).  I would be most interested why.  Certainly anyone that believes them self to be a devout Christian that is happy and supportive of Trump being their president - I really want to know why.  And for the record - I am not at all impressed with the concept or notion that something awful ought to be supported and applauded because there is something worse.  Anything can be justified with that logic - ANYTHING!!!  I do understand the lessor of two evils.  And that the Democrats will present who they will - and that we must then decide.  

For me - there is not an option of my choice - and I am not happy about it.

 

The Traveler

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On 2/1/2020 at 1:27 PM, Traveler said:

I believe I understand your statement.  Never-the-less, I would not work for Donald Trump - nor would I encourage my daughter or sister to date him.  I have made every effort to be clear why I think and respond the way I do.   I do not hate Trump - I am not an never Trumper - I think Romney ought to be kicked out of office and investigated as much or more than Trump.  These are all thoughts and impressions.  I do understand that others see things differently.  I am very interested - not so much that an opinion is different but why.  But I am not so impressed in the notion that I should not have opinions of a politician's character because I lack a college degree to be able to properly have an opinion concerning someone's character.  

Now if someone has an opinion that Trump is of high moral character and is able to respect and be kind towards his perceived enemies and thus is qualified to represent someone of religious concerns (as I am).  I would be most interested why.  Certainly anyone that believes them self to be a devout Christian that is happy and supportive of Trump being their president - I really want to know why.  And for the record - I am not at all impressed with the concept or notion that something awful ought to be supported and applauded because there is something worse.  Anything can be justified with that logic - ANYTHING!!!  I do understand the lessor of two evils.  And that the Democrats will present who they will - and that we must then decide.  

For me - there is not an option of my choice - and I am not happy about it.

 

The Traveler

It doesn't matter what your opinion of Trump's character is.  It's a TV caricature.  I gave you videos of people who know him personally.

It's crazy that you compare him to Al Capone with no evidence but your "impressions".  Al Capone was the head of a crime syndicate and had many people killed.

Trump Derangement Syndrome is real folks.

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15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It doesn't matter what your opinion of Trump's character is.  It's a TV caricature.  I gave you videos of people who know him personally.

It's crazy that you compare him to Al Capone with no evidence but your "impressions".

Don't forget, he also has "a next door neighbor and a brother-in-law that are psychiatrists - and a sister-in-law that is a clinical psychologist."

 

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