Freedom, Family, and The Gospel

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jonah said:

I don't believe with the church teaching about eternal life being living life as a God.

Why is this anti nonsense being allowed on the LDS Gospel Discussion forum? For that matter, why is it (and its author) allowed on the TH forum at all?

[Carborendum]

51 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

From reading the copied post it seems they simply lack the idea that we are Literal Children of Heavenly Parents.  This understanding would change the whole flow of their logic and conclusions.  After all what is found to be logical ultimately depends on what one accepts as fundamental truths

This is a good point.  I had thought in the past that it was simply a disbelief.  But based on Jonah's response to my Romans reference, it seems that they can understand it just fine.  They just refuse to accept it.

That's why we call them creedal Christians.  They believe in their creeds more than they do in the Bible, it seems.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Why is this anti nonsense being allowed on the LDS Gospel Discussion forum? For that matter, why is it (and its author) allowed on the TH forum at all?

I share similar sentiments.  But technically he hasn't broken any rules of the board that they can confirm.  I would think that the constant threadjacks would be evidence of "trollish" behavior.  But apparently the mods disagree.  I would think the evidence of sock puppets would also be breaking the rules.  But apparently, they didn't find the evidence compelling.

Tollish behavior can be evinced in the post you responded to.  I had offered a peace offering by pointing at something we apparently agreed on -- based on his own words.  But instead, he chose to re-focus the discussion to a point of disagreement that had not even been brought up in the thread.

CARB: I'm glad we agree on this.
JONAH: What?!?! We agree on something?!? Then I must be wrong.... uhmm... LOOK!  See here!  We disagree!  I told ya.  See?

I would have thought that finding a point of agreement would have been a good thing.  But apparently he would rather focus on disagreements.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Carborendum

[Just_A_Guy]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

Why is this anti nonsense being allowed on the LDS Gospel Discussion forum? For that matter, why is it (and its author) allowed on the TH forum at all?

Meh.  A little skeptical questioning on the forums keeps our apologetic abilities sharp.  A little dishonesty/disingenuity by a supposed “Christian”, reminds us of who we’re dealing with.

My issue (speaking personally) is when some anti or wannabe preacher insists on making themselves the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.  Hijacking threads (as seems to have happened here), is just tacky.

[Carborendum]

On 9/5/2020 at 9:43 AM, Connie said:

That’s a very interesting perspective. I’m reminded of books like Orwell’s 1984 and Huxley’s A Brave New World where there just are no families. In A Brave New World babies are manufactured. Everyone belongs to everyone. Isn’t that a big goal of socialist/communist ideals? The state is your father/mother or your big brother who watches out for you.

Or just the idea that’s been floating around for years now that you should “create your own family.” I have a sister who has in many ways rejected the family she grew up in and considers her friends to be more her family than her actual family.

In high school, everyone understood that 1984 was a story about government overreach and tyranny.  But many in my class had no idea that Brave New World was a DYStopian novel.  They thought it was a Utopian novel.  SMH.

Yes, the fact is that freedom comes from family in a very real physical sense.  It likewise has similar qualities in eternity.  

Many wonder about the Church's opposition to communism vis-a-vis the endorsement of the Law of Consecration (and stewardship).  Maybe it isn't just about economics and property rights.  It is about family.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Carborendum

[Vort]

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

In high school, everyone understood that 1984 was a story about government overreach and tyranny.  But many in my class had no idea that Brave New World was a DYStopian novel.  They thought it was a Utopian novel.  SMH.

That's because it included lots of promiscuous sex. What could be more utopian for the typical high schooler?

[Jonah]

On 9/23/2020 at 11:54 AM, Traveler said:

Perhaps you could explain clearly the difference between being one with G-d and living life as a G-d

I believe in only one God, not two or three Gods.  Being one with God is living in union with him.
Marriage is a man and a woman becoming one flesh, but this doesn't mean the man becomes
a woman nor does a woman become a man.

https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/BECOMING-ONE-WITH-GOD.HTML has a longer
explanation.

[Jane_Doe]

51 minutes ago, Jonah said:

I believe in only one God, not two or three Gods.  Being one with God is living in union with him.
Marriage is a man and a woman becoming one flesh, but this doesn't mean the man becomes
a woman nor does a woman become a man.

https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/BECOMING-ONE-WITH-GOD.HTML has a longer
explanation.

Catholics Christians and LDS Christians both believe in ONE God, the Father, Son, and Spirit being 3 different divine persons.  The difference in the pov's is in the *how* these three are one. 

For LDS Christians, living with God and full embodying His Goodness is indeed being one with God.  In that regard, husband and wife are one, despite still being separate persons.

For Catholic Christians, three are one through a special God-only substance (see the Athanasian Creed).  Man doesn't have this substance, so while he may live with Him and exemplify His goodness, he still doesn't have this substance.  

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, Jonah said:

I believe in only one God, not two or three Gods.  Being one with God is living in union with him.
Marriage is a man and a woman becoming one flesh, but this doesn't mean the man becomes
a woman nor does a woman become a man.

https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/BECOMING-ONE-WITH-GOD.HTML has a longer
explanation.

You speak as though you believe that G-d is singularly unique.  The ancient Hebrew term of one single unique induvial is "Yhead".  The ancient Hebrew for two or more unique individuals united by covenant is "Ehad".  The ancient Hebrew word for one as you referenced in the marriage of a man and a woman is "Ehad".  Are you aware that all ancient references in the Bible use "Ehad" in describing "one G-d"?    In all the ancient texts - even those considered too corrupt to be referenced as scripture - there is not a single reference that uses "Yhead" in the reference to a single unique G-d.   In other words - as much as you have a right to your opinion in this matter - it is completely without a single president in ancient scripture from which all Old Testament scripture used by Jews and Christians.

The only major world religion that I have encountered that can demonstrate a singularly unique G-d from their sacred scripture is Islam.  

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:04 PM, Traveler said:

In other words - as much as you have a right to your opinion in this matter - it is completely without a single president in ancient scripture from which all Old Testament scripture used by Jews and Christians

In regards to monotheism,  there are a few passages which support it.

Isaiah 43:10 -  "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen:  that ye may
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall
there be after me"

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first,
and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"

I am not aware of any Jew (who doesn't identify as a Christian) which believes Jesus and the Holy
Spirit are God.  So in that sense, he would believe in a singularly unique God.

To be honest with you, I don't understand how the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate personages
but yet they are one Godhead and one God.  But I understand Joseph Smith considered them as 3 Gods
in one Godhead. From reading some portions of the Book of Mormon, it too considers them as one God
and never as 3 Gods.

[Jane_Doe]

59 minutes ago, Jonah said:

In regards to monotheism,  there are a few passages which support it.

Isaiah 43:10 -  "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen:  that ye may
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall
there be after me"

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first,
and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"s.

Both of those passages apply equally to Creedal Christians and LDS Christians.  Both on monotheists, albeit not in a super-simple way like in Islam.

59 minutes ago, Jonah said:

To be honest with you, I don't understand how the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate personages
but yet they are one Godhead and one God.  But I understand Joseph Smith considered them as 3 Gods
in one Godhead. From reading some portions of the Book of Mormon, it too considers them as one God
and never as 3 Gods.

1 God, 3 divine persons.  

The LDS Christians this is one via unity (see John 17).  For Creedal Christians it's one via a shared substance (see the Athanasian Creed).

 

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Both of those passages apply equally to Creedal Christians and LDS Christians.  Both on monotheists, albeit not in a super-simple way like in Islam.

1 God, 3 divine persons.  

The LDS Christians this is one via unity (see John 17).  For Creedal Christians it's one via a shared substance (see the Athanasian Creed).

 

Exactly.  I have very little tolerance for people who ask question but clearly don't pay any attention to the answer.  He knows we believe in the bible, yet he gives bible verses as if he thinks we are unaware and hearing them for the first time.  Yes we believe in the bible, but better yet we actually read the bible and have an understanding of it.

And the idea that someone can read the creedal definition of God... and say yeah I understand that.. but then say godhead is just not understandable is laughable at best.

 

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Jonah said:

To be honest with you

😂

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, Jonah said:

In regards to monotheism,  there are a few passages which support it.

Isaiah 43:10 -  "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen:  that ye may
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall
there be after me"

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first,
and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"

I am not aware of any Jew (who doesn't identify as a Christian) which believes Jesus and the Holy
Spirit are God.  So in that sense, he would believe in a singularly unique God.

To be honest with you, I don't understand how the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate personages
but yet they are one Godhead and one God.  But I understand Joseph Smith considered them as 3 Gods
in one Godhead. From reading some portions of the Book of Mormon, it too considers them as one God
and never as 3 Gods.

As I have said a number of times before - you are trying to put modern interpretations to ancient cultures.   Since you may not grasp what I have been posting lets try another example.  This time at the trial  of Jesus when the Jews cried out "We have no king but Caesar".  So following your line of thinking - Who was Herod and what was his title among the Jews?  An obvious contradiction proving the scripturas false?  not hardly - just a misunderstanding inherent in our modern culture. 

The Book of Mormon was based in Jewish tradition.  I could refer you to prominent Catholic scholars that explain the concept of Suzerain Servant Vassal treaties in Ancient Middle Eastern Kingdoms to demonstrate this is not a concept unique to Joseph Smith.

 

The Traveler 

[Carborendum]

On 9/29/2020 at 11:12 AM, Jonah said:

I believe in only one God, not two or three Gods.  Being one with God is living in union with him.
Marriage is a man and a woman becoming one flesh, but this doesn't mean the man becomes
a woman nor does a woman become a man.

https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/BECOMING-ONE-WITH-GOD.HTML has a longer
explanation.

Jonah, I wish you would actually post more like this one.  At least this is you being you.  This is not you copy-pasting other people's words and making nonsensical questions about things you care nothing about.  This is not you beating around the bush trying to hide your feelings behind the thin-electronic-line of forum rules so you don't get kicked off.

Instead, this is your own testimony about your own beliefs and your own words.  And I'd really welcome you telling people about how you feel about YOUR beliefs. It had a firm declaratory statement of your belief.  It had a logical framework to support your beliefs and it was a clear and direct response to the idea posed to you.

No one likes it when you believe you are an authority on OUR beliefs. This includes constantly trying to tell us why we're wrong in our beliefs.  Telling us we're wrong would require that you first, understand our beliefs.  You don't.  But I'd really hope you'd take the time to learn them.  I think you'd find a lot more common ground than you think.

[Carborendum]

I've continued to ponder this topic.  I've had some random thoughts that are still forming.  I don't know how to verbally describe how they fit together.  But they do. 

Milton Friedman spoke of how wealth is not normally made by individuals.  JD Rockefeller, and Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg are exceptions, not the rule.  Wealth is made generationally. An immigrant family like my father's side of the family came to America with nothing.  And they gradually rose up in the earnings with each generation.  Now, four generations later, my youngest children are going to private schools.  A couple of my siblings are in the 1%.

We know that slaves were not free.  But even non-slaves didn't have freedom when there was no inheritance. 

The rise of the bourgeoisie was not the first instance of non-royalty having inheritance.  Tradesmen taught their children their trade.  Knowledge was inheritance.  The analogue to the gospel is that when our children receive the blessings of the temple and "inherit" a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we have given them spiritual freedom.  In nations of extreme poverty, they may or may not be able to pass on skills to their children.  But a testimony of the gospel is something they can pass on.

I begin to have more respect for the old-school Catholics who would declare "I was born a Catholic and I will die a Catholic" even when they hardly ever go to Church or even know much about their faith.  There parents were Catholic and their grandparents were Catholic.  And that is what mattered.  It was the faith of their fathers.  I used to make fun of such people.  But I"m coming to believe there was an important principle in this type of faith.  It was about family.  And it really was important.

I can't help but be more and more grateful to the blessing of the sealing power.  When we are sealed, there is a power there we don't fully appreciate.  I've mentioned this before.  And I'll -----mention it again.

-------------------------------------

I was sealed to my parents when I was 8 years old.  My biological sister was 10 years old.  One day in my teens the family was looking at a photo album.  Someone noted,"Hey Carb and Harp look like Americans here."  What everyone noted was that there was a very "foreign" look to us in the family photos of earlier years.  But that year when I was 8 years old, the photos showed two very "American" looking Korean kids.  No one could describe it properly.  But everyone noticed it.  

We'd been in America for years already.  Speaking fluent English and forgetting our Korean within 6 months.  Eating an American diet for many years.  Wearing American clothing.  Using American hairstyles, etc.  For several years.  But that didn't explain the stark difference within a single year's time between two photographs.

I asked what year it was.  Then I asked,"Wasn't that the year we were sealed?"  Most of the family rolled their eyes.  But a few pondered it for a bit.  I still believe that sealing is not just about the afterlife.  It actually does something to us here.

-------------------------------------

Being Sealed and staying true to our covenants is at the core of the covenant path to the Savior.  And it is through the Savior that we can receive liberty and Eternal life instead of captivity and death.

I think the greatest gift of freedom we can give (inheritance) is the gift of a powerful testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Eternal Family = Liberty and Eternal Life.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Carborendum