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NeuroTypical

By NeuroTypical
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beefche
beefche

Sometimes, it isn't just about bringing a company to its knees. I boycotted a particular fast food chain because of my abhorrence for their commercials. I knew my 3 or 4 times/year spending $10 wouldn

zil2
zil2

As my dad liked to say, you can't please all the people all the time, but with a little effort, you can make them all mad.

Vort
Vort

This. I did a strange thing about six months or a year ago. I've always enjoyed Fleetwood Mac for their musicality and Stevie Nicks for her awesome voice. I read an interview in which Nicks said

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Carborendum

Carborendum

Posted
Posted

Snow White

  • Conservatives hate this movie already because of wokeness.
  • Lliberals hate this movie because the Queen is played by an Israeli actress.
  • Movie aficionados hate this movie already because of bad CGI and set design.
  • Peter Dinklage has weighed in saying it is dismissive of short people

Is there anyone that this movie has not offended before anyone has even seen it?

$209M budget.  Probably already spent about $100M in promotion.  Even if we don't count distribution fees, this is going to be one of the biggest movie boondoggles in history.

I wonder if anyone is going to see it besides critics.

LDSGator

LDSGator

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Snow White

  • Conservatives hate this movie already because of wokeness.
  • Lliberals hate this movie because the Queen is played by an Israeli actress.
  • Movie aficionados hate this movie already because of bad CGI and set design.
  • Peter Dinklage has weighed in saying it is dismissive of short people

Is there anyone that this movie has not offended before anyone has even seen it?

Exactly. Like I’ve always said the extreme left and right are the same people. They look for reasons to be angry and unhappy and what a surprise-they always find them. 

Phoenix_person

Phoenix_person

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

 

  • Lliberals hate this movie because the Queen is played by an Israeli actress.

 

To be fair, most of us can't stand Gal Gadot for reasons that have nothing to do with her ethnicity and and everything to do with her "acting". Her being a probable Zionist (as opposed to merely ethnically Israeli) makes it easier to avoid her work, but we weren't exactly seeking out her filmography to begin with.

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I wonder if the “boycott/hate everything” crowd ever gets tired of it. It honestly must be exhausting waking up every day and getting angry. Not being funny, being serious 

I come from a beer industry background. When I was in the biz, EVERYONE in craft circles was boycotting Anhueser Busch (ABI) and Molson-Coors. All of their products, from the top down. When ABI bought one of Houston's larger craft breweries, there was an uproar. I had to tell a good friend of mine that I could no longer give her employer my bar's tap space because of a policy that I had helped create before her employer even existed. That was a pretty big breaking point for me that really solidified my current "enjoy what you like" stance towards beer. I enjoy ethical consumption more than I enjoy beer and fried chicken, which is why I avoid ABI, Chik Fil A, etc despite the fact that I enjoy some of their products. There's other beer and other chicken sandwiches. But I try my best to avoid telling people what products or entertainment they shouldn't consume and let them enjoy the things they like. Ethical consumption is awesome, but should be arrived at voluntarily as much as possible.

It's also a balancing act of compassion and principles vs enjoyment. If, "hypothetically" speaking, my favorite Minneapolis brewery uses COVID as an excuse to hire all new taproom staff after the previous staff tried to unionize, what message does it send to my friends in the biz if I continue to patronize them (especially in a state with several great union-made options)? What message does it send my queer friends if they see me in the Chik Fil A drive through? Again, more important things than beer and chicken. Call it "virtue-signalling" if you want, but in a world where so many people feel alone and unsafe, I'm determined not to give anyone a reason to doubt that I'm a safe person to be around. And a chicken sandwich seems like a stupid hill to die on, personally.

Edited by Phoenix_person
LDSGator

LDSGator

Posted
Posted

There’s a strong streak of elitism/moral purity to those who scream the loudest about boycotts. They want everyone to look at them and see how moral and righteous they are.
 

That’s why they always tell everyone what they are boycotting instead of just privately doing so. It is, of course, their right to do whatever they wish-but we can usually see right through them. 
 

Phoenix_person

Phoenix_person

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This is simply a veiled racism.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

Don't mistake my anti-Zionism for antisemitism. It's true that there's an unfortunate amount of overlap in some circles, and I call it out *every* time I see it from either political side. The people of Israel aren't our enemy any more than the people of Palestine are. Hamas and the State of Israel are both enemies of humanity with massive amounts of blood on their hands. Sometimes the people on the ground see enough and try to wash the blood off their hands. I consider Gal Gadot a probable Zionist because I don’t see a willingness to acknowledge the difficult dialectics of the conflict, only a willingness to perpetuate it. 

I've known people who served in the IDF. I've become very close friends with one of them. Their experiences probably informed my opinions of the Israel/Palestine conflict more than my own time in the Middle East did. I don't envy the PTSD they have to endure, and my own is pretty effing awful. I don't know what Gadot's experiences were in the IDF in comparison to others, but some of the IDF vets I've talked to have horrible nightmares about the things they saw, and in some cases were implicit in. I never personally did anything in Iraq worth losing sleep over, but I've lost plenty of sleep over the things I saw that were done by my countrymen at the behest of the Bush administration. It's even harder for IDF folks because they *actually* have an existential threat at the gates. That fact isn't lost on me, nor is the fact that THE STATE of Israel has had its hands in all sorts of shady interventionalist dealings all over the world for decades. I was 18 years old when I realized that to multiple foreign populations, we're the baddies for reasons that, frankly, are pretty valid. I saw it first-hand. So did my IDF friends, in their own ways. The difference is that it's a lot easier for them to justify their government's actions than it is for me to justify my own. And STILL, they wake up at night screaming from images of disembodied Palestinian children that won't leave their brain. The Israeli friend that I still keep in touch with hates Bibi more than I hate Bush. She also hates Hamas, obviously, but she's sickened both by things she saw during her time in service and things happening there now. Neither of us know what the path forward is over there. Thankfully, she's living in Germany now, but she still has family in Israel. They had a close call with some Hamas rockets just last week. 

NeuroTypical

NeuroTypical

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I come from a beer industry background.

Heh - I come from a blue dog union printer background.  In the '70's my dad would take me to the union shop and I'd help him type his dues cards with the old manual typewriter.  Little 5 yr old me was also responsible for bringing the old man a beer at regular intervals.   At the time, the union was running a boycott against Coors beer.  Overnight, and with much cursing and swearing, we became an Olympian house.  Most of the rest of the boycotters were moving to Schlitz, but it sounded like a German name and my dad wouldn't hold with buying German beer.  I remember the poster on the shop wall - a guy urinating into a river that flowed into the Coors bottling plant, with the caption "It's all downhill from Colorado."  A while later the strike ended, but my dad stuck with Schlitz.   (Little mormon churchgoing me had nobody who could relate with such an upbringing.)

20 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I consider Gal Gadot a probable Zionist because I don’t see a willingness to acknowledge the difficult dialectics of the conflict, only a willingness to perpetuate it. 

Could you give us your definition of "Zionist"?   I hear these definitions, and wondered what yours is.

- A Zionist is someone who believes in Israel's right to exist, and right to defend itself from aggression. 
- A Zionist is someone who expresses patriotic sentiments about the state of Israel and it's moral correctness when compared with those of its neighbors. 
- A Zionist supports genocide, here, read my pamphlet on "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".  (And they own all the banks too.  And Hollywood.)
- Zionists are Israelis who took their holocaust trauma and basically became the same Nazis that brutalized them in the 1930s. 

It sort of sounds like you're saying a Zionist is someone who likes Israel, but doesn't criticize it in ways that you think it should be criticized.  But I want to make sure I hear it from you.

Edited by NeuroTypical
The Folk Prophet

The Folk Prophet

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I wonder if the “boycott/hate everything” crowd ever gets tired of it. It honestly must be exhausting waking up every day and getting angry. Not being funny, being serious 

I put it to you:

Which takes less effort. Going to a movie, or not going to a movie?

I mean it's kind of a weird question to me when you put it in terms of "exhausting". It's not exhausting to NOT do/buy/consume something. :D

Phoenix_person

Phoenix_person

Posted
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

There’s a strong streak of elitism/moral purity to those who scream the loudest about boycotts. They want everyone to look at them and see how moral and righteous they are.
 

That’s why they always tell everyone what they are boycotting instead of just privately doing so. It is, of course, their right to do whatever they wish-but we can usually see right through them. 
 

Exactly. I have my "lists", but that's nobody's business but mine and that of anyone who cares to ask why I avoid certain businesses and products. It's not about being angry all the time, it's about what I call "radical compassion", and it boils down to two very simple rules:

1) Love everyone (I think your scripture says something to this effect)

2) Don't be afraid fight to for what you love, even if that means flipping the occasional money changer's table. 

Edited by Phoenix_person
LDSGator

LDSGator

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I put it to you:

Which takes less effort. Going to a movie, or not going to a movie?

I mean it's kind of a weird question to me when you put it in terms of "exhausting". It's not exhausting to NOT do/buy/consume something. :D

Lol. 
 

We all know people who spend their time hating everything. That, my friend, surely gets exhausting. 

 

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I have my "lists", but that's nobody's business but mine and that of anyone who cares to ask why I avoid certain businesses and products.

Same. I’m more vocal about the sports teams and music I dislike. You know, the really important stuff. 

Traveler

Traveler

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Don't mistake my anti-Zionism for antisemitism. It's true that there's an unfortunate amount of overlap in some circles, and I call it out *every* time I see it from either political side. The people of Israel aren't our enemy any more than the people of Palestine are. Hamas and the State of Israel are both enemies of humanity with massive amounts of blood on their hands. Sometimes the people on the ground see enough and try to wash the blood off their hands. I consider Gal Gadot a probable Zionist because I don’t see a willingness to acknowledge the difficult dialectics of the conflict, only a willingness to perpetuate it. 

I've known people who served in the IDF. I've become very close friends with one of them. Their experiences probably informed my opinions of the Israel/Palestine conflict more than my own time in the Middle East did. I don't envy the PTSD they have to endure, and my own is pretty effing awful. I don't know what Gadot's experiences were in the IDF in comparison to others, but some of the IDF vets I've talked to have horrible nightmares about the things they saw, and in some cases were implicit in. I never personally did anything in Iraq worth losing sleep over, but I've lost plenty of sleep over the things I saw that were done by my countrymen at the behest of the Bush administration. It's even harder for IDF folks because they *actually* have an existential threat at the gates. That fact isn't lost on me, nor is the fact that THE STATE of Israel has had its hands in all sorts of shady interventionalist dealings all over the world for decades. I was 18 years old when I realized that to multiple foreign populations, we're the baddies for reasons that, frankly, are pretty valid. I saw it first-hand. So did my IDF friends, in their own ways. The difference is that it's a lot easier for them to justify their government's actions than it is for me to justify my own. And STILL, they wake up at night screaming from images of disembodied Palestinian children that won't leave their brain. The Israeli friend that I still keep in touch with hates Bibi more than I hate Bush. She also hates Hamas, obviously, but she's sickened both by things she saw during her time in service and things happening there now. Neither of us know what the path forward is over there. Thankfully, she's living in Germany now, but she still has family in Israel. They had a close call with some Hamas rockets just last week. 

One of the problems I have with atheists is their misunderstanding that this universe is extremely hostile to life as we know it.  Even here on this planet where life is so abundant, well over 90% of all species that have existed here are now extinct.  Of all the species remaining – they are all just one generation away from extinction.    One of the most significant threats to mankind is mankind itself.

We are entering an era of humanity where life, especially the means of maintaining human life (heterosexual relationships) are diminished and discounted – even despised.   There should be no surprise that human life (including children both born and unborn) are being sacrificed on an altar of narcissism, selfishness and a celebration of “pride”.

The worse part of war is what we call collateral damage.  Especially when vulnerable collateral is used as a tactic of war or part of war’s spoils. 

I have no solution to mitigate the ravages of war regardless of who or what initiated a war  -- But I agree with Winston Churchill when he said that there are worse things than war, and they all come from having lost a war.  

 

The Traveler

Carborendum

Carborendum

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Don't mistake my anti-Zionism for antisemitism.

I'm not mistaking.  

Let me be clear.  I don't think you're racist.  I think you just don't know any better. Consider NT's question about definitions.

Just so I'm not showing my bias, here is the AI Definition:

Quote

A Zionist is someone who supports the existence of a Jewish state in Israel and the right of Jewish people to self-determination in their historic homeland. The term "Zionism" comes from Zion, a hill near Jerusalem.

The alternative of wanting this Jewish state is ... "From the River to the Sea."  If you think that is an innocent rally cry, you really don't understand the Middle East.

Phoenix_person

Phoenix_person

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Could you give us your definition of "Zionist"?   I hear these definitions, and wondered what yours is.

- A Zionist is someone who believes in Israel's right to exist, and right to defend itself from aggression. 
- A Zionist is someone who expresses patriotic sentiments about the state of Israel and it's moral correctness when compared with those of its neighbors. 
- A Zionist supports genocide, here, read my pamphlet on "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".  (And they own all the banks too.  And Hollywood.)
- Zionists are Israelis who took their holocaust trauma and basically became the same Nazis that brutalized them in the 1930s. 

All of these are correct, in their own way. Definition A isn't exclusive to Zionist Israelis, but it's also true there's an unsettling pipeline from Definition A to Definition D. Most Zionists won't admit it, but some Zionists have their own idea of "from the river to the sea", and there's a lot of concern that what's been happening in Gaza and Lebanon is viewed by some in the IDF and Israeli government as a step toward that eventual goal of total eradication. Conversely, plenty of Israelis believe that both Israel AND Palestine have an inherent right to exist. Those Israelis will swiftly correct you if you call them Zionists. Modern actions by the State of Israel don't reflect a coexisting reality. And no, the actions of Hamas don't either, but remind me again which one we keep sending more weapons to?

In short, the Israeli left-right dynamics are probably more complicated than our own, but nationalism is generally dangerous regardless of who's practicing it.

27 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It sort of sounds like you're saying a Zionist is someone who likes Israel, but doesn't criticize it in ways that you think it should be criticized.  But I want to make sure I hear it from you.

A Zionist is someone who believes in Israel's right to exist and to defend itself from aggression. That's it. Are all Zionists bad? No. I kind of view them the same way I do the Evangelical Right: with general suspicion until they can prove that they haven't added any militant ethnosuperiority complexes to their sense of national pride.

NeuroTypical

NeuroTypical

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

To be fair, most of us can't stand Gal Gadot for reasons that have nothing to do with her ethnicity and and everything to do with her "acting". Her being a probable Zionist (as opposed to merely ethnically Israeli) makes it easier to avoid her work

20 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

A Zionist is someone who believes in Israel's right to exist and to defend itself from aggression. That's it.

I guess I'm missing it.  What's your problem with Gal Gadot being a Zionist?  Are you not a Zionist yourself?  Or do you think Israel has no right to exist, and should not be able to defend itself from aggression?

 

22 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

All of these are correct, in their own way.

Oof.  So I guess that claim begs several other questions. 
- Do you believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a real thing that Jews had which acted as their roadmap for global domination?
- Do you believe Jews own all the banks and hollywood?

 

Phoenix_person

Phoenix_person

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I guess I'm missing it.  What's your problem with Gal Gadot being a Zionist? 

I don't think I ever said I explicitly have a problem with her brand brand of Zionism, whatever that may be. That last part was the point. It's understandable that Jewish people all over the globe have strong feelings about Hamas. There were also multiple Jewish-led pro-Palestine rallies over the past year and change. I have no expectations for any Jewish or Israeli person, celebrity or otherwise, to have public stances on this issue. But my side recognizes the ones who do. And I fear we may be approaching "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentalities. Not me specifically, to be clear. But the silence (or at best, passive sympathy) from some Israeli nationals regarding what their government is doing to the Palestinian people in the name of retribution and national security is becoming more deafening with each dismembered Arab child. If they don't want to stir controversy by speaking up, that's fine. But if Israelis truly want to peacefully coexist with Palestinians rather than eradicate them completely, then they may want to start speaking up while there are still innocent Palestinians that can be saved.

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Are you not a Zionist yourself? Or do you think Israel has no right to exist, and should not be able to defend itself from aggression?

I already stated that this definition of Zionism is not exclusive to those who call themselves Zionists. Yes, I believe Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. No, I do not consider myself a Zionist. I'm ultimately on Team Two State, but while shots are still being fired, I'm on the side of the Palestinian children being killed by American weapons because of the actions of Iranian-backed terrorists. 

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oof.  So I guess that claim begs several other questions. 
- Do you believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a real thing that Jews had which acted as their roadmap for global domination?
- Do you believe Jews own all the banks and hollywood?

No and no. But that doesn't mean the Israeli government doesn't have blood on their hands. This paper gives a very balanced and quite fascinating breakdown of the history of both the Israeli government *and* the PLO intervening in Latin American politics. 

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/notes/2009/N2685.pdf

And as much as I respect Israeli tradition and their sacred ties to Jerusalem in particular, if their war for independence took place in 2024 instead of 1948, even some hardened conservatives would probably call it genocide. Both of my parents are big news junkies, and I'm old enough to have heard stories about refugee camps in places like Jordan and Lebanon in the 90s. But I wasn't old enough to understand why there were so many refugees, or even where they were fleeing from, and I was raised in a culture that taught me that Israel could do no wrong. Our modern digital age is both a blessing and a curse. War hits you a lot harder when you can watch it live on TikTok instead of reading about it in a newspaper. The curtain is down, and now anyone with an internet connection can see the devastation that war causes. THAT'S why there are concerns about some of the motives behind the Israeli government's actions. They literally fled their homes just to turn around and violently remove someone else from theirs. I don't fault today's Israeli citizens for that. My IDF friend's grandmother was orphaned in a concentration camp and was taken to Israel by an adoptive family. I can't begin to comprehend what that must have been like. I also can't bring myself to use that as a justification to displace the Palestinian people. The amount of pain and suffering on both sides of this conflict is horrific, and it breaks my heart to see people actively call for the eradication of either side. I'm not pro-governments, I'm pro-people. And right now the Palestinian people are suffering tremendously and wildly disproportionately for the actions of their radical terrorist government.

Carborendum

Carborendum

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Her being a probable Zionist (as opposed to merely ethnically Israeli) makes it easier to avoid her work

3 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

I consider Gal Gadot a probable Zionist because I don’t see a willingness to acknowledge the difficult dialectics of the conflict, only a willingness to perpetuate it. 

5 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I don't think I ever said I explicitly have a problem with her brand brand of Zionism

I'm having trouble figuring out what you really mean.  I can only conclude that some of these statements were simply mistaken wording.

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