Thoughts about the Moscow murders

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Heard from other sources methamphetamine can make one paranoid and delusional.

Yep

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Where are you seeing that?

From an interview on Fox with a former roommate that said he knew that the suspect used drugs.  He was asked how he knew and he said that they did drugs together.   They did not say what the drugs were.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

What types of drugs lead toward violent and homicidal behaviors in your opinion?  I think methamphetamine is one of them.  Heard from other sources methamphetamine can make one paranoid and delusional.

Talking to a pharmacist – all drugs have side effects.  Psychotropic drugs by nature alter moods.  The FDA closely validates prescribed drugs and their side effects but they do not monitor the side effects of mixing drugs especially with illegal or recreational drugs.  The pharmacist told me that statistically of someone is taking 5 or more drugs that at least one of the drugs will interfere with one or more of the others – producing additional side effects.  I asked specifically about marijuana mixed with other drugs – especially prescribed psychotropic drugs for mental issues (including depression).  His response is that there is no released research data – which means that it should not be experimented with.   

The problem is that HIPAA has made releasing what drugs anyone is using is unlawful.  I think HIPAA should be suspended when violent crimes are committed so common denominators can be identified studied so all doubts can be removed.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

asked specifically about marijuana mixed with other drugs – especially prescribed psychotropic drugs for mental issues (including depression).

I get that you are worried about drug use, but try to remember that 99% of people on drugs for depression who smoke pot don’t kill people. Maybe the guy was just evil. 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I get that you are worried about drug use, but try to remember that 99% of people on drugs for depression who smoke pot don’t kill people. Maybe the guy was just evil. 

There are two things that concern me.  My Concern Number 1: Is there a cocktail of drugs that comprise a common denominator?  If there is not a drug cocktail – what recipe of factors most defines the greatest common denominator.  Every person (especially those classified as accountable) have “natural man” (evil) reactions but 99.999% of those do not kill people.  Historically there are societies that have illuminated murder.  There are societies in history that do not even have a word in their vocabulary for murder.  We need a clear and accurate picture of every detail that comprise the “Common Denominator” of these horrific offences that seem to be increasing in our society.

My Concern Number 2: If the cause of something is not known and understood it cannot be fixed, altered, improved, used or be addressed in any way to guarantee benefit and eliminate or lesson undesired results.  As an engineering consultant this is the most important point I would attempt to make with my clients.   If we do not have accurate metrics, we cannot make good discissions – only bad decisions.

As strange as it may seem these two concerns are the basis of just about everything that concerns me.  And we seem to be living in a generation that fears or for whatever reason dislikes truth of causes.  Sometimes we will hide the elements of truth even from ourselves.  The things we want to hide and keep secret are most likely to be of less harm than being open and truthful about them.  I think we make a greater evil trying to hide and cover up evil than committing the evil in the first place.   I speculate that with the Moscow there was one target murder and three additional murders to cover up the first.

If pure evil exist it is given legs with ignorance. 

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

there a cocktail of drugs that comprise a common denominator? 

No, probably not. Or we’d have even more shootings, given how many people take antidepressants. Especially in Utah, which has among the highest antidepressant usage in the country. 

46 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If there is not a drug cocktail – what recipe of factors most defines the greatest common denominator

Easy. Human evil doesn’t need drugs. Sometimes people just make evil choices. That simple. 

[mirkwood]

I've been in a few nasty fights at work with people who were "just on marijuana."  

[mirkwood]

37 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Especially in Utah, which has among the highest antidepressant usage in the country. 

Most recent numbers I could find show that West Virginia is #1 in antidepressant prescriptions.  Utah came in at #16.

[LDSGator]

15 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Most recent numbers I could find show that West Virginia is #1 in antidepressant prescriptions.  Utah came in at #16.

If I’m wrong, fine. But Utah has been much much higher in the past. And no, I don’t think the church has anything to do with it. 
 

This is from Utah itself. Maybe Utahans need to be on MORE mental health pills instead of suffering like this.
 

It’s heartbreaking, not funny. 
 

https://www.upr.org/utah-news/2022-06-01/utah-tops-mental-illness-list-outranks-states-across-the-country?_amp=true

 

https://kslnewsradio.com/1976756/utah-adults-have-highest-mental-illness-rate-in-country/amp/

Edited January 10, 2023 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I get that you are worried about drug use, but try to remember that 99% of people on drugs for depression who smoke pot don’t kill people. 

Well, 99% of anyone doing anything won't be killing people.  An honest question to you though: Do you believe folks under the influence of MJ are less likely to break laws or harm themselves or others, than those not under the influence?

I ask because I occasionally hear the sentiment from folks, but the claim conflicts both with people I know firsthand, and what cops tell me.

People I know firsthand:
- I have a distant relative who actually led police on a high speed chase (helicopter and television coverage too) while high.  This was a decade ago in Utah.
- I personally know two people who decided to use medicinal or recreational MJ to lighten their moods and treat anger issues, and they both report outcomes that did not match expectations.  One guy put it this way: "I used to be mad at my wife and marriage, then I became mad at my wife and marriage and poor and stupid."

Whenever I've had the opportunity to ask, every single cop I've encountered, have a couple of stories of having to fight with people who are high.

To be clear - I also have a handful of stories from folks who tell me they've had absolutely zero negative outcomes with MJ.  Lots of stories like "I got high a lot in college, then graduated and got serious about life and everything is fine".  Those stories outweigh my negative stories by 2-1.  But another way to put that: For every 3 people I personally know who have tried MJ, a full third of them ended up with a negative outcome.  Including the high speed chase guy.

[LDSGator]

25 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Do you believe folks under the influence of MJ are less likely to break laws or harm themselves or others, than those not under the influence?

Honestly? Yes, and I’m sorry because I know it’s not what you want to hear. I think the overwhelming majority of people who smoke weed do so to relax and unwind. Not smoke weed then beat their spouses, stay up 8 days straight and rob liquor stores or get into fights in bars. 
 

Now, having said that, I do think weed usage can be sinful and yes, some people take it to an extreme. Having seen firsthand the agony that DUI causes (a friend lost their nephew to one. https://andrewmcmorrisfoundation.org Is his foundation.) I have no sympathy for those who do that. The monster who killed the little boy was drunk, not on weed, for the record. He’s rotting in jail thank God. 

However, I know too many people who smoke pot and lead regular lives. It also has to be said that I know people who are teetotalers and cheat on their spouses and are horrible people filled with hate and anger. I don’t know of anyone who smokes weed before a boxing or jujutsu class to get energy flowing. It doesn’t work like that. We’re not talking about cocaine or meth here*. 

*I have known of people who snort a line of coke before working out for “energy”. I find it dangerous and stupid. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Sorry, I guess I worded my question poorly.  I'm thinking about the impact and influence MJ has on someone.  I'm occasionally told MJ makes you mellow and peaceful and less likely to be up to no good.  Or MJ helps with mood disorders or anger management.  So, a better question would be, do you believe that?  Do you believe that random person X, with various problems Y and Z, can toke it up a bit and find their problems Y and Z are reduced?

Because that guy had an impact on me.  There he was, living in happy smoke filled legalized MJ Colorado.  He had an unhappy marriage and a bad temper.  He decided to take the advice he was given, which was something like "Marijuana helps you manage your temper.  It makes you more laid back."  So he got some, spent around 6 months trying to self-medicate himself and his marriage some relief.  I met him shortly after the end of that 6 months.  His marriage was at the point of failure, his wife had kicked him out, he realized he hadn't changed a single bit, except to be (as he put it), poorer and stupider because of the cost and time spent high.

I don't automatically think ill of someone just because they do something like get high.  Maybe I used to, but again, I've met enough to discover they're all humans like me. 

I'm down with some legitimate medical uses of MJ, like nausea treatment for cancer patients, and there's some indication it helps quiet voices in some types of schizophrenics.  But as an anger control medicine?  Dude eventually ended up divorced, and he's out there today, thinking if he had spent less time high, and more time working on himself, he'd still be married.

Does that make any sense?

 

(And the only thing I want to hear, is the truth.  )

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

I could have easily misread as well, sorry about that. 

5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Do you believe that random person X, with various problems Y and Z, can toke it up a bit and find their problems Y and Z are reduced?

Yes, to a degree. I do not believe that someone can be “cured” from serious mental illness by just smoking weed. However, I do strongly believe it can help reduce symptoms of anxiety, OCD, etc. 

 

8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Because that guy had an impact on me.  There he was, living in happy smoke filled legalized MJ Colorado.  He had an unhappy marriage and a bad temper.  He decided to take the advice he was given, which was something like "Marijuana helps you manage your temper.  It makes you more laid back."  So he got some, spent around 6 months trying to self-medicate himself and his marriage some relief.  I met him shortly after the end of that 6 months.  His marriage was at the point of failure, his wife had kicked him out, he realized he hadn't changed a single bit, except to be (as he put it), poorer and stupider because of the cost and time spent high.

That’s really sad. From what you’ve described it sounds like it didn’t work like it was supposed to. I’m sure there are cases like that, but there are also cases where it has worked for the issues he described. If you use something as a crutch without addressing the underlying problems, the thing won’t work after a while. 
 

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm down with some legitimate medical uses of MJ, like nausea treatment for cancer patients, and there's some indication it helps quiet voices in some types of schizophrenics.  But as an anger control medicine?  Dude eventually ended up divorced, and he's out there today, thinking if he had spent less time high, and more time working on himself, he'd still be married.

Again, that is really sad. But in my own experience around people who smoke pot nothing like that happens. Weed is a depressant, which means it’s chills you out. I would think it would actually work quite well with who you are describing. Nothing is 100%, not to sound cruel or dismissive. Divorce is one of the worst things in the world, my heart breaks for him. 

Just so I don’t come across as naive I absolutely think people misuse weed, either in recreation or medically. However I think it helps far, far more than it hurts. 

Breaking down what you said I think I misread you more than you didn’t communicate it well. 

[Ironhold]

7 hours ago, LDSGator said:

If I’m wrong, fine. But Utah has been much much higher in the past. And no, I don’t think the church has anything to do with it. 
 

This is from Utah itself. Maybe Utahans need to be on MORE mental health pills instead of suffering like this.
 

It’s heartbreaking, not funny. 
 

https://www.upr.org/utah-news/2022-06-01/utah-tops-mental-illness-list-outranks-states-across-the-country?_amp=true

 

https://kslnewsradio.com/1976756/utah-adults-have-highest-mental-illness-rate-in-country/amp/

About a decade or so back (and a few computers ago...) I read a study which suggested that high altitudes had an effect on brain chemistry due to the thinner oxygen supply. Basically, past a certain altitude it was as if you were taking downers or sedatives. For people who had ADHD, anxiety, and other such issues that left them super-charged the higher elevations sometimes meant that they no longer needed their medications to function. But for people who are already "normal", the effect can be akin to a malaise or even a depression. 

Sadly, I no longer have my link to this study and so was never able to follow up. 

[LDSGator]

22 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

About a decade or so back (and a few computers ago...) I read a study which suggested that high altitudes had an effect on brain chemistry due to the thinner oxygen supply. Basically, past a certain altitude it was as if you were taking downers or sedatives. For people who had ADHD, anxiety, and other such issues that left them super-charged the higher elevations sometimes meant that they no longer needed their medications to function. But for people who are already "normal", the effect can be akin to a malaise or even a depression. 

Sadly, I no longer have my link to this study and so was never able to follow up. 

:: shrugs :: could be. It’s odd because high religious commitment generally leads to increased feelings of happiness.

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

About a decade or so back (and a few computers ago...) I read a study which suggested that high altitudes had an effect on brain chemistry due to the thinner oxygen supply. Basically, past a certain altitude it was as if you were taking downers or sedatives.

Are you saying that if you are high you are down?