Temple Sealing Cancellations

[zil2]

1 hour ago, SteelerFan said:

Good discussion Zil2, and point(s) taken. I just thought the jump all the way to the comparison in regards to the 2nd wife's behaviour, feelings, understanding, etc acting in some way like the adversary was a bit too out there, extreme and overkill. Not appropriate or necessary, in my humble opinion.

Thanks.  And again, I'm sorry my bluntness offended.  I tend to like it when the Lord whacks me upside the head with a 2x4 - it's so much easier not to doubt when that happens...   Obviously, I've let that come through here.  And I will try to remember that newbies don't know me and that such things can easily be mistaken for ill will.

1 hour ago, SteelerFan said:

Whether it's two or twenty women discussing a subject, be careful, the Lord has a funny way of putting us in situations we once thought we had all figured out. You may change your opinion and perspective if you are given the opportunity or misfortune someday, possibly in this life, to find yourself in the same situation as wife 2. Experience is the great humbler. 

You needn't tell me this.  There is zero chance I will end up in the situation of wife 1 or wife 2 in this life, but I know well that the Lord will allow us to go through our own nightmares so that we can learn to choose the good and refuse the evil, or in better terms, learn to choose God no matter what, above all else.

[Hearttoheart]

I have been reading peoples opinions on this topic and come to a very sad conclusion…firstly due to personal experiences I  am sad at the way in which the second wife has been condemned and demonised, name called and a long list of things she must do to be worthy! 
Secondly…is the church not meant to be understanding, forgiving and full of love and acceptance of everyone, not judgmental and cruel and blatantly cold. 
from my own personal experience I chose not to be sealed to my husband who is already sealed to his first wife because I didn’t feel right doing that when he is married already in the temple, I have experienced on many occasions in the past (not my current husband) what it feels like to be just an option and have to fight for someone you love and share them. I do not want to spent eternity feeling that way! It’s a very dark place. I never once asked my husband to have his sealing cancelled to his first wife, my husband chose to do that all by himself. I did however pray about it and was ready to accept that if the sealing was not cancelled then there is still some unfinished buisness with his previous wife whether  in this life or the next! God knows everything that I can and can’t handle  And I know I couldn’t ever be in that situation again( even in heaven) God knows my heart and knows who I am that’s all that matters I trust him. Not the opinions of people who don’t know me or my situation. Same for the people in question, instead of being judgemental, (not a trait of Jesus) try opening your heart. (Which is ) I love my husband and would never force him to chose and maybe one day I will feel in my heart it’s right but for now I have my (free agency ) to decide for my self what I feel is the right thing even if to everyone else it’s wrong.  Just one other thing if I was rich I would treat the cleaner exactly the same as the ceo regardless of degrees and money, just because no one is better than anyone else…,likewise The god I know would treat the convert exactly the same as the people born into the church, regardless of their level of understanding with patience and love. one day we will all be judged not on who knows the most doctrine and scriptures but what’s inside your heart! ❤️ 

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Hearttoheart said:

I have been reading peoples opinions on this topic and come to a very sad conclusion…firstly due to personal experiences I  am sad at the way in which the second wife has been condemned and demonised, name called and a long list of things she must do to be worthy! 
Secondly…is the church not meant to be understanding, forgiving and full of love and acceptance of everyone, not judgmental and cruel and blatantly cold. 

Hearttoheart, I'm wondering: Was there any specific thing anyone said that you disagreed with? Or was it just the tone you didn't like? I realize that you sympathize with the wife; I think it would take a heart of stone not to have any sympathy for her position. But a sympathetic person can be wrong. Do you see anything wrong with how she is treating her husband and/or in her very approach to the issue?

[Just_A_Guy]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:35 AM, SteelerFan said:

[1] Do any of the women that have commented if favour of the first wife have any actual personal experience with their husband being sealed to two or more women at the same time? [2]And for the men, would you be ok with your wife being sealed to another man while still being sealed to you? It seems as if the second wife has been demonised as someone who needs repentance, humility, understanding, is selfish, etc., all the while, the first wife is laughing her guts out all innocent and in her element. Please answer the question with a yes or no. Please. Conjecture absolutely not necessary for these particular questions. Thank you.

1.  I’m not a woman (obviously!), but I would respectfully push back against the ideas  that a) a universal policy is inherently wrong just because it hits a particular subset of people in a particularly visceral way, or b) that people who are not directly effected by a policy are unable to weigh in on the objective pros, cons, real-world effects, and theoretical rationales behind said policy.

2.  I’d be fine knowing my wife were still administratively sealed to a prior spouse, if I were confident that from both an emotional and theological standpoint, the bond between my wife and her ex was well and truly “over”.  

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

2.  I’d be fine knowing my wife were still administratively sealed to a prior spouse, if I were confident that from both an emotional and theological standpoint, the bond between my wife and her ex was well and truly “over”.  

I have to wonder if this is not the "Real" issue.

The scriptures are clear God will not compel anyone... You choose to live his laws and gain his blessing or you choose not to and loose those blessing and face consequences.  Yet when it comes to Seallings people forget this...  They think God will some how break his own rules and start compelling people to be in relationships and situations  they do not want to be in.  I totally understand why it would be concerning issue I would totally have it myself if it were true... but it is a made up issue, stemming from a flawed understanding of the nature of God...  That is the theological side.

The emotional side, that is the human side, that is trickier.   If we have charity we want our spouse and their ex's to become better people.  Our spouse needs to become a better person just like we do for the sealing matter at all.  And if the ex becomes a better person as well, then what?  Well repentance does not mean we will gain that "exact same" opportunity that we blew up because of our sinful ways. Repentance and Forgiveness do not mean that old relationship have to be reestablished exactly the way they were before

[zil2]

43 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Yet when it comes to Seallings people forget this... 

They forget in both directions: The one you outlined, and something like, "I don't have to do anything.  I'm guaranteed a spot in the Celestial Kingdom cuz I'm sealed."

[SteelerFan]

The first wife asked for the divorce in the first place. Maybe an option for consideration could or should be, just cancel the sealing and let all parties move on? 

[zil2]

7 hours ago, SteelerFan said:

The first wife asked for the divorce in the first place. Maybe an option for consideration could or should be, just cancel the sealing and let all parties move on? 

Sure, but:

1. Husband is the person asking questions.  Therefore, we can only give advice to Husband.

2. Presumably Wife 2 still has a good (or redeemable) relationship with Husband.  So theoretically, we can pass advice through Husband to Wife 2.  (And hopefully Husband chooses which advice to pass on and how to present it since Husband knows Wife 2 well.)

3. Presumably, Wife 1 doesn't give a flying squirrel about what Husband thinks right now.  So how do we give advice to Wife 1?  If I could give advice to Wife 1, it would be to return to Christ, exercise faith, humble herself, repent, seek and extend forgiveness, and strive to keep her covenants.

It is not bashing anyone to say they need to do these things, because these are things we all need to do in one degree or another.  Does it sound like Wife 1 is being spiteful?  Yeah, sure, but the solution is the same as for Wife 2 who is letting her offended heart keep her and Husband from blessings they could already have.  And no doubt, Husband has need of the same things.  These things invite Christ's healing power.  Blame all around?  Sure; that's what the repentance and forgiveness are for.  Harm received all around?  Sure; that's what forgiveness and turning to Christ are for.

No one can force anyone to do anything (at least, not righteously).  So each party needs to focus on what they can do in their own heart and mind, and then on what (if anything) they can help the other parties to do - but those other parties will each have to choose it themselves.

And, since you already know I'm blunt, I'm going to ask a blunt question:  What were you hoping for?  Did you want us to break out the virtual pitchforks and drive Wife 1 to the stake and set her alight?  What good would that do?  Would that really help Husband and Wife 2 to move forward in a positive way?  Do you want us to put Husband and Wife 2 on a pedestal of innocence and lament their helplessness at the evil claws of Wife 1?  That would be a lie, and it would not help Husband or Wife 2 to move forward in a positive way.  I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what else we can tell anyone except to avail themselves of the help Christ offers - and that comes when you offer him a broken heart and a contrite spirit, in faith...

Edited July 15, 2023 by zil2

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, SteelerFan said:

The first wife asked for the divorce in the first place. Maybe an option for consideration could or should be, just cancel the sealing and let all parties move on? 

That certainly seems reasonable on the surface.  But part of the reason we're in the societal drama that we face is that the family and the sanctity of marriage is about on par with people's preference to work the sewage treatment plant.

Marriage is in the toilet because of how easy it has become to get a divorce.  And no-fault divorce is a big part of it.  Imagine if sealings are equally easy to cancel.  Maybe they already are, and soon LDS divorce numbers will be no better than the world at large.

I hope you don't take this as a reflection on you and your situation.  I don't know enough of your background to determine much of anything.  But statistically speaking...

[Traveler]

@SteelerFan

First – welcome to the form – glad you are here.  Thanks for the topic.  I read through most of this thread and I think that perhaps I have a very different perspective.

I believe that regardless of circumstances that it is foolish to assume that any happiness or joy can be achieved in waiting for someone or something else to change.  I believe that if anyone has come to the conclusion that something ought to change to make anything better – the only logical possibility is that any change must begin with oneself.  The logic here is that changing oneself is the only possible change anyone can make or act upon expect or demand.  If one is not willing to change themselves or cannot conceive and any possible change they can make – it is foolish to think or hope that any change will ever occur.

 

The Traveler

 

[scottyg]

For what it's worth, these assignments are hard ones for the Apostles to handle. Imagine being tasked with making decisions that affect other individuals and families throughout the eternities. It is a wonderful thing to exercise the sealing power to bind on earth and bind in heaven...and an awful one to be the one to loose on earth and loose in heaven.

[estradling75]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:39 PM, scottyg said:

For what it's worth, these assignments are hard ones for the Apostles to handle. Imagine being tasked with making decisions that affect other individuals and families throughout the eternities. It is a wonderful thing to exercise the sealing power to bind on earth and bind in heaven...and an awful one to be the one to loose on earth and loose in heaven.

Indeed the task for the General Authority over such things is to find and communicate the will of God.  That is a huge task and I wouldn't want it.  But by that same thought the very people entrusted with those tasks are people that I trust more than I would trust myself to get it right.  After all God tells us in Amos that by his mouth or the mouth servants it is the same.  And God is responsible for making that true.

 

So when we understand this we realize that the OP is wishing that God would have just given them what they asked for.  I think we can all empathize with this desire for God to just give us what we want.  While understanding that it is completely and totally wrong and that we need to repent and humble ourselves.

[Vort]

I just responded on another thread with the same basic thoughts I have on this topic. We absolutely fail to understand what a husband/wife sealing means in any but the most rudimentary terms. If we had a real comprehension of eternity, eternal life, and the real effects of the sealing power between husband and wife and between parent and child, it would completely overturn all our current preconceptions. I expect the very idea of dissolving a sealing with a spouse because s/he was mean to us would become untenable, to the point that we would stagger at the idea that we would ever have supported or even contemplated such a thing.

It's clear that no unclean thing can dwell with God in a kingdom of glory. This applies as much to the telestial kingdom as to the terrestrial or the celestial. But the celestial have something far greater and more profound than I expect those of the other kingdoms can even clearly understand. Those who qualify to receive the gift of eternal life will, in every case and without exception, be so Godly that they will attain a state of complete perfection, "even as [our] Father which is in heaven is perfect." Whatever petty wranglings we have dealt with in this sphere, or for that matter even weighty matters of real moral import, will not trouble such beings. They will have, in Joseph Smith's words, "walk[ed] such things under [their] feet." This doubtless includes marital squabbles. In the celestial realm, there is no envy or jealousy or spite. In that case, Alice can be sealed to Bob and receive all the blessings, joy, marital intimacy, and eternal increase of such a sealing, regardless of whether or not Bob is also sealed to Cathy.

On the other hand, if one does not live so as to qualify to receive the gift of eternal life, then as far as we understand, the marital sealing covenant is of no effect. So it literally does not matter to Alice whether Bob is sealed to Cathy or Cathy to Bob. As long as Alice and Bob receive the gift of eternal life, that's all that matters to them, at least as far as their relationship with each other goes. In that case, Bob's sealing to an unworthy wife is of no consequence; the ligature between Bob and Cathy ceases to exist, not having been sealed by the holy spirit of promise.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

So when we understand this we realize that the OP is wishing that God would have just given them what they asked for. 

He gave Joseph what he asked for and look what happened.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

This applies as much to the telestial kingdom as to the terrestrial or the celestial.

Indeed.  How many times have we heard people say "If God allows polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, I'd rather go to the Terrestrial Kingdom!"

Well, if you say so.