G-ds and Heaven

[Traveler]

Over the years my concepts of G-d and heaven has evolved.  There is criticism of the LDS concept of the resurrection surrounding the idea that good LDS members will get their own world over which they will be g-ds in complete control.  I believe such arguments are dark lies intended to be distractions from light and truth.  This thread is intended to express LDS thoughts of G-d(s) and his kingdom of heaven – and if desired the contrast with counter concepts from understandings of other religious doctrines.

In the resurrection revelation I think there are two possibilities.  One is a resurrection into the “Kingdom” of G-d and the other is to a place that in scripture is called “Outer Darkness” or “Perdition”.   I have struggled greatly with the concept of “Outer Darkness” concerning its inhabitants.  Beyond Lucifer and his fallen “angles” I have not concluded who else will remain unsaved without salvation and fallen.  There are some seemingly reference to perdition, but I am not sure that any descendants of Adam and Eve (including Cain) qualify.   Perhaps another thread can deal with such concepts.

There are two concepts of G-d and heaven that I believe are fundamental principles of truth championed in scripture and modern LDS revelation.   The first is the “oneness” of G-d the Father and His Celestial Saints.  The second is the degrees of “Glory” that describe all the residents of G-d’s “kingdom” of Heaven.  In addition, I believe that there is a fundamental ordinance of the laws of heaven that is structured around what is pronounced as “Agency” in scripture (mostly in modern LDS scripture and revelation).

I am quite content with the concept of divine “oneness” and am somewhat dumbfounded with any and all objections that G-d’s Saints are united in inseparable and the complete non-distinguishedness of such beings.  I do not believe than any non-Celestial being can understand or recognize any differences in G-d the Father and any of His Celestial Saints.  I am under the impression that gender is well defined within the class of Celestial beings, but I am not sure that such definitions are as well defined outside of G-d and his Celestial Saints.

I have speculated that LGBTQ+ concepts may exist in heaven but not withing the Glory of G-d and his Celestial Saints.  What possibilities of such things in other Glories may be possible to varying degrees.

This particular post is getting rather long so I will conclude with the concept that G-d the Father and His Celestial Saints have exercised their “Agency” to become highly disciplined and beings of incredible “order”.  And yet there is a lack of need to define the discipline or order in any “written” or “spoken” form.  That G-d the Father and His Saints are the only completely liberated and free beings in the existence over which G-d the Father resides.

It is my intention that this thread can be used to express and discuss (question) speculations of this subject.  I am concerned that some believe speculations to be evil.  Rather, I see speculations am a means of study and preparation for possible revelation (personal and otherwise) on truth and light.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have speculated that LGBTQ+ concepts may exist in heaven but not withing the Glory of G-d and his Celestial Saints.  What possibilities of such things in other Glories may be possible to varying degrees.

Even the least position in the telestial kingdom is a part of a kingdom of God's glory. It is thus of necessity pure and sinless. So if by "LGBTQ+" concepts you mean activities or ideas that have to do with same-sex sexual relations, I would assume that no such activities or ideas can exist in a place of moral purity.

[NeuroTypical]

When I think about leanings/tendencies/urges/passions/intense emotions/mortal desires, I think about what Brigham Young said about his temper:

Quote

Many men will say they have a violent temper, and try to excuse themselves for actions of which they are ashamed. I will say, there is not a man in this house who has a more indomitable and unyielding temper than myself. But there is not a man in the world who cannot overcome his passion, if he will struggle earnestly to do so. If you find passion coming on you, go off to some place where you cannot be heard; let none of your family see you or hear you, while it is upon you, but struggle till it leaves you; and pray for strength to overcome. As I have said many times to the Elders, pray in your families; and if, when the time for prayer comes, you have not the spirit of prayer upon you, and your knees are unwilling to bow, say to them, “Knees, get down there”; make them bend, and remain there until you obtain the Spirit of the Lord. If the spirit yields to the body, it becomes corrupt; but if the body yields to the spirit it becomes pure and holy (DBY, 267).

Do not get so angry that you cannot pray; do not allow yourselves to become so angry that you cannot feed an enemy—even your worst enemy, if an opportunity should present itself. There is a wicked anger, and there is a righteous anger. The Lord does not suffer wicked anger to be in his heart; but there is anger in his bosom, and he will hold a controversy with the nations, and will sift them, and no power can stay his hand (DBY, 269).

When my feelings are aroused to anger by the ill-doings of others, I hold them as I would hold a wild horse, and I gain the victory. Some think and say that it makes them feel better when they are mad, as they call it, to give vent to their madness in abusive and unbecoming language. This, however, is a mistake. Instead of its making you feel better, it is making bad worse. When you think and say it makes you better you give credit to a falsehood. When the wrath and bitterness of the human heart are moulded into words and hurled with violence at one another, without any check or hindrance, the fire has no sooner expended itself than it is again re-kindled through some trifling course, until the course of nature is set on fire (DBY, 266).

I tend to think you can replace the words like temper/angry/passion, with an awful lot of words out there on various subjects (including the rainbow alphabet subjects), and still have the same good advice. 

I wonder if Brigham still has his temper in heaven?  I don't know.  Kind of the same thoughts for folks with various inclinations who live righteously and go to heaven.

Edited June 26, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[mikbone]

In my version of the Celestial Kingdom you are not necessarily given anything other than endless possibilities.  

The Celestial Kingdom is the only place where damnation does not occur - there are no limitations (other than sin).

You will not necessarily be given your own mansion or solar system.

But, you will have access to information, power, and raw materials.  Your ideas, diligence, love, etc, will determine your mansion - be it a nice tiny home. Or a galaxy of your personal design.

You do you.

Edited June 26, 2023 by mikbone

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Over the years my concepts of G-d and heaven has evolved.  There is criticism of the LDS concept of the resurrection surrounding the idea that good LDS members will get their own world over which they will be g-ds in complete control.  I believe such arguments are dark lies intended to be distractions from light and truth.  This thread is intended to express LDS thoughts of G-d(s) and his kingdom of heaven – and if desired the contrast with counter concepts from understandings of other religious doctrines.

In the resurrection revelation I think there are two possibilities.  One is a resurrection into the “Kingdom” of G-d and the other is to a place that in scripture is called “Outer Darkness” or “Perdition”.   I have struggled greatly with the concept of “Outer Darkness” concerning its inhabitants.  Beyond Lucifer and his fallen “angles” I have not concluded who else will remain unsaved without salvation and fallen.  There are some seemingly reference to perdition, but I am not sure that any descendants of Adam and Eve (including Cain) qualify.   Perhaps another thread can deal with such concepts.

There are two concepts of G-d and heaven that I believe are fundamental principles of truth championed in scripture and modern LDS revelation.   The first is the “oneness” of G-d the Father and His Celestial Saints.  The second is the degrees of “Glory” that describe all the residents of G-d’s “kingdom” of Heaven.  In addition, I believe that there is a fundamental ordinance of the laws of heaven that is structured around what is pronounced as “Agency” in scripture (mostly in modern LDS scripture and revelation).

I am quite content with the concept of divine “oneness” and am somewhat dumbfounded with any and all objections that G-d’s Saints are united in inseparable and the complete non-distinguishedness of such beings.  I do not believe than any non-Celestial being can understand or recognize any differences in G-d the Father and any of His Celestial Saints.  I am under the impression that gender is well defined within the class of Celestial beings, but I am not sure that such definitions are as well defined outside of G-d and his Celestial Saints.

I have speculated that LGBTQ+ concepts may exist in heaven but not withing the Glory of G-d and his Celestial Saints.  What possibilities of such things in other Glories may be possible to varying degrees.

This particular post is getting rather long so I will conclude with the concept that G-d the Father and His Celestial Saints have exercised their “Agency” to become highly disciplined and beings of incredible “order”.  And yet there is a lack of need to define the discipline or order in any “written” or “spoken” form.  That G-d the Father and His Saints are the only completely liberated and free beings in the existence over which G-d the Father resides.

It is my intention that this thread can be used to express and discuss (question) speculations of this subject.  I am concerned that some believe speculations to be evil.  Rather, I see speculations am a means of study and preparation for possible revelation (personal and otherwise) on truth and light.

 

The Traveler

If possible, please share one of these ideas which you consider sufficiently developed to consider a working principle upon which you act in faith, and a practical example that highlights its associated blessings -- thank you!

[laronius]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

Even the least position in the telestial kingdom is a part of a kingdom of God's glory. It is thus of necessity pure and sinless. So if by "LGBTQ+" concepts you mean activities or ideas that have to do with same-sex sexual relations, I would assume that no such activities or ideas can exist in a place of moral purity.

I think all such natural inclinations for these things (natural meaning not those who arrive at that state only because they have moved from one baser sin to the next) are a product of the fall and as such will be corrected in the resurrection.

[NeuroTypical]

22 hours ago, mikbone said:

Your ideas, diligence, love, etc, will determine your mansion - be it a nice tiny home. Or a galaxy of your personal design.

You do you.

I need to watch What Dreams May Come again.  

[Traveler]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:27 AM, Vort said:

Even the least position in the telestial kingdom is a part of a kingdom of God's glory. It is thus of necessity pure and sinless. So if by "LGBTQ+" concepts you mean activities or ideas that have to do with same-sex sexual relations, I would assume that no such activities or ideas can exist in a place of moral purity.

Greetings @Vort .  I would like to drill down and discuss your input.  I have surmised the Kingdom of Heaven logically following my understanding of scripture.  If I may explain.  The most critical principle of heaven, as I understand, is the principle of Agency.  I will call Agency the “prime directive” of heaven.  It is the principle that resulted in the war in heaven and the loss of Lucifer and his disciples.   Why?

My thinking is that agency is more than choice – more than choice agency is the ability and power to make a choice both real and eternal.  To me, there are two parts to agency.  The first is the inward desire (that is within us) of choice and the second is the outward power and ability (a gift from G-d) of making the choice an eternal reality.  Jesus told us that to look and lust requires that we already commit sin in our hearts.  But to look and lust does not make that choice in sin a reality – yet.  To turn choice into reality requires agency, which I believe to be the prime directive of heaven.

It is my understanding that of all the sins possible that there is only one sin that will bring about eternal perdition.  In scripture, perditious sin is a denial of light in truth is the presents of the Holy Ghost that unlocks and makes all truth available.  We are also told in scripture that the one sin that excluded Lucifer from heaven and earned his title of perdition was his unyielding opposition to agency.

It appears to me that there is a point at which – if we do not repent of sin (I assume any particular sin) that there will eventually come a time that we can no longer repent of sin (or particular sin).  I am not sure if the condition is that we cannot or will not repent – regardless the result is the same.  

It seems to me that those that inherit the Terrestrial and Celestial glory of heaven are those that repent of sins.  To inherit Celestial glory, it is my understanding that we must also take upon us (as an act of agency) the belief of Christ to become like (one with) Him and our Father in Heaven.  Those that inherit a Telestial glory are unclean and unrepentant of some sin or sins and cannot endure such presents.

Joseph Smith indicated that our earth in its present state is a telestial glory state.  The concepts and beliefs of what we understand to be LGBTQ+ seems to me to be a philosophy of this world that is telestial.  Logic, at least to me, implies that LGBTQ+ philosophy, along with many other philosophies that allow lies, contentions and other sexual sins (of various types of adulteries and fornications).   As I understand, those that inherit the telestial glory, though forgiven of their sins of mortality) are not clean and cannot endure whatever it is that is the presents of our Father in Heaven.

I am grateful for your input and hope to discuss more.

 

The Traveler

Edited June 27, 2023 by Traveler

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, CV75 said:

If possible, please share one of these ideas which you consider sufficiently developed to consider a working principle upon which you act in faith, and a practical example that highlights its associated blessings -- thank you!

I am not sure I understand your question.  It is my understanding that in this mortal life that all acts are acts of faith in that we lack sufficient knowledge to act otherwise.  Since knowledge is incomplete, we often rely on speculation and thoughtful impressions in part because of our faith. 

In my opening statement for this thread – I am quite confident for the ideas expressed in the first about 2/3 of my statement.  My thoughts about LBGTQ+ are somewhat speculation that I have offered for possible exchanges. 

The idea that the Celestial glory contains G-d the Father and his covenant Saints bound and existing in divine oneness – I believe to be a well developed teaching from scripture.  If you like we can drill down together and explore what it means for many to be one.

 

The Traveler

Edited June 27, 2023 by Traveler

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure I understand your question.  It is my understanding that in this mortal life that all acts are acts of faith in that we lack sufficient knowledge to act otherwise.  Since knowledge is incomplete, we often rely on speculation and thoughtful impressions in part because of our faith. 

In my opening statement for this thread – I am quite confident for the ideas expressed in the first about 2/3 of my statement.  My thoughts about LBGTQ+ are somewhat speculation that I have offered for possible exchanges. 

The idea that the Celestial glory contains G-d the Father and his covenant Saints bound and existing in divine oneness – I believe to be a well developed teaching from scripture.  If you like we can drill down together and explore what it means for many to be one.

 

The Traveler

Maybe I can ask another way: how would you, or any disciple of Christ in general, apply of one of the ideas you shared in daily living? 

[Traveler]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:43 PM, CV75 said:

Maybe I can ask another way: how would you, or any disciple of Christ in general, apply of one of the ideas you shared in daily living? 

I have thought and mediated on your intriguing question.  Thank you for asking – hopefully I have understood your question.  We are told in scripture that our mortal experience (daily living) is a unique experience like no other in our eternal progression.  This experience is also called a time of trial whereby we act on faith.  I believe we are flooded with choices that must be made in moments void of understanding the aggerate consequences.

But we are given spiritual assistance in dealing with these choices.  First, we all come into this life with the spirit of Christ with an ability to sense good from evil.  In the Book of Mormon – Alma – addresses this spiritual ability as a seed that when nourished allows us to build assurity what is good from evil.

Next, we enter into covenants that allow connection to our divine roots.  These covenants are anchors in eternal laws.  Perhaps the example of our weekly sacrament covenant demonstrates the connection.  We promise, by taking the emblems of the sacrament to “take upon the name of Christ” and to “always remember Christ”.

I believe that taking the name of Christ we are legally bound, similar to power of attorney, to act in and behalf of Christ.  In essence we become the example of what we believe as Christ to all with whom we associate.  This is not a provision by which we can judge the actions of others – as it is to be aware of ourselves.  In essence we conduct a scientific experiment on ourselves where, by our actions, we put our current understanding of Christ on trial by our choices. 

Let me take this a step farther.  Let’s say, that during our day we are faced with what we perceive as a wrong against ourselves or some other.  If, we become angry, we can evaluate from our understanding if this anger how well we understand Christ and how He would act.  I reference anger because for myself I have discovered that anger is seldom (if ever) Christ like.  That forgiveness, compassion and mercy seem (at least to me) a more Christ like response.

According to our covenant with G-d, as a Saint of G-d, if we discover that we have acted improperly we have the opportunity to repent.  I believe that repentance is both something within ourselves to desire to change and in addition an external effort to apologize to those we afflicted with our anger.

I have used anger because it is such a challenge to me personally – not so much any more as anger I express or show but at this point an anger within myself, kept to myself – That I can more easily overcome as I remember Christ and my covenants.

I am under the impression that becoming Christ like is not a means of deciphering the problems of others as it is seeing myself and having compassion and mercy for others.  The compassion and mercy for other is difficult for me.  I see this in me as a choice rather than a feeling – because I do not experience feeling as deeply as others.  My wife has such deep feelings and tells me I am the strange one and that most are like her.  Sometimes I think, that because I do not connect well with feelings, that it ought to be easier for me to choose compassion and mercy.   To be honest, I often find it illogical or unjust that some should be treated with compassion and mercy.  But then I remember that Jesus Christ sacrificed his life so that the unjust are forgiven their mortal errors.  I believe that very day is a struggle for a Saint of G-d in this mortal fallen life.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have thought and mediated on your intriguing question.  Thank you for asking – hopefully I have understood your question.  We are told in scripture that our mortal experience (daily living) is a unique experience like no other in our eternal progression.  This experience is also called a time of trial whereby we act on faith.  I believe we are flooded with choices that must be made in moments void of understanding the aggerate consequences.

But we are given spiritual assistance in dealing with these choices.  First, we all come into this life with the spirit of Christ with an ability to sense good from evil.  In the Book of Mormon – Alma – addresses this spiritual ability as a seed that when nourished allows us to build assurity what is good from evil.

Next, we enter into covenants that allow connection to our divine roots.  These covenants are anchors in eternal laws.  Perhaps the example of our weekly sacrament covenant demonstrates the connection.  We promise, by taking the emblems of the sacrament to “take upon the name of Christ” and to “always remember Christ”.

I believe that taking the name of Christ we are legally bound, similar to power of attorney, to act in and behalf of Christ.  In essence we become the example of what we believe as Christ to all with whom we associate.  This is not a provision by which we can judge the actions of others – as it is to be aware of ourselves.  In essence we conduct a scientific experiment on ourselves where, by our actions, we put our current understanding of Christ on trial by our choices. 

Let me take this a step farther.  Let’s say, that during our day we are faced with what we perceive as a wrong against ourselves or some other.  If, we become angry, we can evaluate from our understanding if this anger how well we understand Christ and how He would act.  I reference anger because for myself I have discovered that anger is seldom (if ever) Christ like.  That forgiveness, compassion and mercy seem (at least to me) a more Christ like response.

According to our covenant with G-d, as a Saint of G-d, if we discover that we have acted improperly we have the opportunity to repent.  I believe that repentance is both something within ourselves to desire to change and in addition an external effort to apologize to those we afflicted with our anger.

I have used anger because it is such a challenge to me personally – not so much any more as anger I express or show but at this point an anger within myself, kept to myself – That I can more easily overcome as I remember Christ and my covenants.

I am under the impression that becoming Christ like is not a means of deciphering the problems of others as it is seeing myself and having compassion and mercy for others.  The compassion and mercy for other is difficult for me.  I see this in me as a choice rather than a feeling – because I do not experience feeling as deeply as others.  My wife has such deep feelings and tells me I am the strange one and that most are like her.  Sometimes I think, that because I do not connect well with feelings, that it ought to be easier for me to choose compassion and mercy.   To be honest, I often find it illogical or unjust that some should be treated with compassion and mercy.  But then I remember that Jesus Christ sacrificed his life so that the unjust are forgiven their mortal errors.  I believe that very day is a struggle for a Saint of G-d in this mortal fallen life.

 

The Traveler

Thank you!

[Traveler]

I will extend this tread with my thinking concerning the various state of things upon the completions of the great plan of salvation.  One aspect of all this was for a long time quite confusing and a paradox for me.  I have thought that the prime difference between good and evil (light and dark) is the standard stuff.  Good is mostly things like honesty, kindness, love of G-d and keeping G-d’s laws and commandments.  Bad is mostly lying, cruelty, hate towards G-d (and others) and a disregard for G-d’s laws.  However, it seems that the war and division was not over such ideas of good and evil – but rather the prime difference was all about agency and how agency may be deployed. 

I assume the problem was not so much for agency used for “good” as it was about possible agency of others in unapproved manners.  I am thinking Lucifer was all about agency for himself but not for other – others that he believed would use their agency for things which he did not approve of.   Obviously, this is not exactly what is the conclusion of the religious community as a whole.   This little pandora’s box of agency is difficult to deal with once opened.  That is; what happens when agency is used to bring about undesirable things?  I will leave this discussion for later and deal with the various uses of agency.

I believe the first thing to understand is the idea of spirituality as the “light of truth”.  That which is spirit (spirituality) is that which emits light because it is light.  This is a most profound notion.  In science all matter, as we understand matter emits light.  All matter emits radio waves in the spectrum of light.  Radio waves exist at the lowest end of the electromagnetic spectrum.  There are no emissions lower than radio waves – by definition.  There is something in our universe that does not emit light that we can detect – we think.  We call this stuff dark matter and dark energy.  Every thing else (matter and energy) that we understand with our science and physics emits energy (light).

Let us talk about the possibilities of agency starting with “outer darkness”.  This is a state that very few in mortality will exercise their agency to achieve.  Maybe zero or fewer than we can count on our fingers?  I speculate that it is called “outer darkness” because that place does not emit or give off any light (spiritual light of truth).  The only definite descriptor of an individual we have is Lucifer or Satan – which is a being in which there is no light, only darkness.  Lucifer used agency to become Satan – the master of darkness.  I am thinking we call him darkness because he does not and cannot not emit any light.  Whatever light he encounters is completely used up or altered to become darkness.  He is perhaps something quite powerful in our universe?

The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that agency is to be exercised in the sphere in which G-d (a Celestial being) has placed intelligence.  We are also told that without agency – There is no existence”.  I speculate that G-d created the sphere of outer darkness so that dark intelligence can have a place to exist according to their agency.  Since G-d is a being of light – I speculate that G-d provides the light necessary so that their can be a place of outer darkness, but that light is used and changed by the beings there such that no light is ever emitted – ever – only darkness.  I also speculate that without G-d (a Celestial being of light) that outer darkness could be sustained.  Therefore, it is because of the compassion and mercy of G-d that there is a place for Satan and his angles of darkness.

Now I will give my thought of the kingdoms of “Glory” that are called telestial and terrestrial glories.  I speculate that these are kingdoms that emit some light.  In scripture this light is compared to the corresponding stars and moon of our earthly night sky.  Though the moon is brighter than any star these lights are insufficient to sustain life.  My assumption is that these kingdoms require the light of G-d (a Celestial being) in order to sustain those individuals that utilized their agency for such glories.   In essence they do not desire to be a being of a source of light like unto G-d – that sacrifices portions of His light to provide for those who exercise agency in a manner to rely upon that light provided by others to sustain their glory.  Yet they are willing to give off some light (of varying degrees like unto the stars and moon or our night sky) for others – perhaps within their level of glory or less?

This post is getting quite long – I will end this post here and leave my understanding of Celestial beings for perhaps another time.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Perhaps there is some OCD in my nature, and I feel compelled to complete thoughts concerning the final judgement and the plan of salvation.  In all current scientific notions, our universe will eventually “wind down” use up all available energy and become a cold dead universe of nothing but darkness.  Of course, the obvious question that our science cannot or fails to address is how our universe got so wound up with ordered energy in the first place – especially with our understanding of the second law of thermodynamics.  Our understanding of physics does not allow the existence of a steady state universe.

My thought is that all things that exist depends on the “intelligence” of Celestial entities (G-d) in order to act and have existence.  From the Doctrine and Covenants we learn that all intelligence is independent in the sphere in which G-d has placed it – to act for itself – else there is no existence.   I believe that that the term “sphere” is related to the kingdoms of glory as well as “outer darkness” where Satan presides.

I would submit that those that are resurrected Celestial act as one with G-d the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost to oversee, control and maintain all spheres of intelligence.  The proper notion, therefore, for Celestial beings is that they are G-ds in the same manner that G-d is G-d.   I am inclined to think that most views of heaven where the beings are critters of leisure playing harps and singing praises to G-d is most descriptive of the Terrestrial Glory.

I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more like unto the Celestial than many care to realize.  When Jesus spoke in the sermon on the mount about doing good to those that despitefully use you, loving your enemies and such – are notions to prepare all the Saints of G-d’s church to fulfill various callings to do with the various kingdoms (including outer darkness) to maintain those spheres for the intelligence that inhabit them.

I do not believe that there can be any sort of freedom, justice or laws to define any sphere without Celestial intelligence and divine Priesthood to govern our universe and it various spheres.   That those of Celestial glory will constantly be required to make sacrifices similar to the sacrifices of Christ to keep and maintain all spheres.

Because of the necessity of such sacrifice – I speculate that many will opt out of a Celestial glory for that which is Terrestrial or some other glory.

 

I had hoped for more discussion concerning this thread.  In part to make sure I have not left out critical ideas – especially ideas that could alter thinking concerning what glory we may be preparing for.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:55 PM, Traveler said:

Perhaps there is some OCD in my nature, and I feel compelled to complete thoughts concerning the final judgement and the plan of salvation.  In all current scientific notions, our universe will eventually “wind down” use up all available energy and become a cold dead universe of nothing but darkness.  Of course, the obvious question that our science cannot or fails to address is how our universe got so wound up with ordered energy in the first place – especially with our understanding of the second law of thermodynamics.  Our understanding of physics does not allow the existence of a steady state universe.

My thought is that all things that exist depends on the “intelligence” of Celestial entities (G-d) in order to act and have existence.  From the Doctrine and Covenants we learn that all intelligence is independent in the sphere in which G-d has placed it – to act for itself – else there is no existence.   I believe that that the term “sphere” is related to the kingdoms of glory as well as “outer darkness” where Satan presides.

I would submit that those that are resurrected Celestial act as one with G-d the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost to oversee, control and maintain all spheres of intelligence.  The proper notion, therefore, for Celestial beings is that they are G-ds in the same manner that G-d is G-d.   I am inclined to think that most views of heaven where the beings are critters of leisure playing harps and singing praises to G-d is most descriptive of the Terrestrial Glory.

I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more like unto the Celestial than many care to realize.  When Jesus spoke in the sermon on the mount about doing good to those that despitefully use you, loving your enemies and such – are notions to prepare all the Saints of G-d’s church to fulfill various callings to do with the various kingdoms (including outer darkness) to maintain those spheres for the intelligence that inhabit them.

I do not believe that there can be any sort of freedom, justice or laws to define any sphere without Celestial intelligence and divine Priesthood to govern our universe and it various spheres.   That those of Celestial glory will constantly be required to make sacrifices similar to the sacrifices of Christ to keep and maintain all spheres.

Because of the necessity of such sacrifice – I speculate that many will opt out of a Celestial glory for that which is Terrestrial or some other glory.

 

I had hoped for more discussion concerning this thread.  In part to make sure I have not left out critical ideas – especially ideas that could alter thinking concerning what glory we may be preparing for.

 

The Traveler

I have had a similar thought that many Christian believers will inherit a kingdom of glory just like they wanted only to find out they had set their sights far too low. Though I fully expect many are also sufficiently faithful to the knowledge they possess that they will accept the fullness of the gospel when given the chance.

I was listening to a BYU speech recently where the speaker talked about the importance of learning to love to serve because that is what it means to be exalted. It wasn't a new idea for me but it did make me stop and reassess how much I desired exaltation based on that definition. I decided I needed to cultivate that desire a little more.

In regards to your comment about the constant need for sacrifice in ministering to lesser kingdoms it does raise an interesting question of what eternal life consists of once everything pertaining to this life is finalized at the end of the millennium and what the relationship will be between those of the different kingdoms. I had always assumed that once everything is finalized that those who receive exaltation will turn their focus to the next generation of spiritual beings, their own children. Are you proposing that there will be an ongoing responsibility on the part Celestial beings to serve lesser kingdoms?

[Vort]

37 minutes ago, laronius said:

I was listening to a BYU speech recently where the speaker talked about the importance of learning to love to serve because that is what it means to be exalted. It wasn't a new idea for me but it did make me stop and reassess how much I desired exaltation based on that definition. I decided I needed to cultivate that desire a little more.

This is not unlike my realization that, given a choice of living like the ancient Nephite disciples, I would quickly and firmly choose dying at 72 and being with Christ over living in a translated state for two thousand years to help prepare the vineyard for his return.

I do think that we perhaps put too much emphasis on what we feel and think right now versus what we're trying to become. I have found that, at least for me, my perception/viewpoint largely determines how I evaluate things. As a parent, I have usually been happy, and almost always at least willing, to make even difficult sacrifices for my children. If I viewed celestial life using that lens, I would certainly find myself much more willing to be compliant with, and even embrace, the necessary sacrifices.

But from a purely selfish level, of course celestial life doesn't sound appealing. I think we need to take God's word at face value that "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." If we wait until we comprehend God's gifts before we qualify ourselves to receive them, we will never receive them.

[Traveler]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:31 AM, laronius said:

I have had a similar thought that many Christian believers will inherit a kingdom of glory just like they wanted only to find out they had set their sights far too low. Though I fully expect many are also sufficiently faithful to the knowledge they possess that they will accept the fullness of the gospel when given the chance.

I was listening to a BYU speech recently where the speaker talked about the importance of learning to love to serve because that is what it means to be exalted. It wasn't a new idea for me but it did make me stop and reassess how much I desired exaltation based on that definition. I decided I needed to cultivate that desire a little more.

In regards to your comment about the constant need for sacrifice in ministering to lesser kingdoms it does raise an interesting question of what eternal life consists of once everything pertaining to this life is finalized at the end of the millennium and what the relationship will be between those of the different kingdoms. I had always assumed that once everything is finalized that those who receive exaltation will turn their focus to the next generation of spiritual beings, their own children. Are you proposing that there will be an ongoing responsibility on the part Celestial beings to serve lesser kingdoms?

You ask a good question that I believe could generate a great deal of discussion.  Our mortal exercise provides us with learning experiences, and I assume that those experiences (knowledge obtained) will provide advantages in the resurrection.  I believe that the Doctrine and Covenants speaks directly to this purpose of obtaining knowledge in this life.

One of the experiences that we have in the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is directly associated with family.  The institution of family is among our most sacred covenants and is included in our temple teaching and worship.  However, even with such an important focus we are given calling.  All callings in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints come through the Priesthood and are governed through the priesthood.

I have surmised that the Priesthood of G-d is the means through which all things are governed.  I believe that the Doctrine and Covenants teaches this principle.  That there is no space in which there is no kingdom.  That if something exist it is ruled and over seen by the power of the priesthood.   We are also instructed that all intelligence is free to act for itself in that sphere in which G-d has placed it.

Though I do not know and cannot prove – I am inclined to think of the use of the term sphere or space as something similar to “kingdom” and that the two notions in scripture are connected.   If there are other opinions – I would much enjoy a rigorous discussion on the topic to explore other insights in detail.

It has been my experience that often callings deal with ministering to those that are struggling with and need or require assistance with the application of the laws, ordinances and principles of the gospel of Christ.  In this mortal life we fast and make sacrifices for those suffering or in need.  Jesus taught that we should pray for our enemies and those that despitefully use us.  I believe such advice is given directly for those that intend a Celestial glory.  It is logical to me that such teaching would best have application for those in “lessor” kingdoms of glory.  I wonder if we can think of glory in the resurrection as something similar to wealth in this mortal probation.

Wealth can be a good thing depending on how it us utilized.  For example, if it is used to help those less fortunate – that is a good thing.  If it us used for personal opulence – that is a bad thing.  I believe Celestial beings use their wealth to bless others – not for possessing shinny things.   It seems to me that the “poor” will always be with us.  But they will not be counted poor because of the compassion of the Saints of G-d.

I believe there is much more to understand of Celestial and service and sacrifice – but I have provided some concepts of why some would perhaps rather focus more on themselves in and after the resurrection.

 

The Traveler

Edited July 18, 2023 by Traveler