Cameras in classrooms and protecting the innocent

[Backroads]

On 5/7/2024 at 11:15 PM, Vort said:

♫ I'll tell you what I'd do: I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the war, and I'd seek to establish normal marital intimacy with you.

I'm okay with this, and even with raising teacher pay significantly, as long as regular principles of meritocracy are practiced. In other words, bad teachers are summarily and unapologetically booted. This will never, ever, ever happen in government-run schools with NEA-unionized teachers.

In theory I'm with you, but I honestly don't know how to make that happen beyond the obviously bad teachers. I think @Traveler has some good ideas, but even then I can think of too many exceptions (we'd have to scrap IDEA and other laws to even start).

I fear the complexity would be a hard road to travel.

And I don't mean to mean this defend-the-teachers, just that this is another thing I see parents getting up in arms about, plus the number of administrators needed to arrange and implement all these standards.

Edited May 10, 2024 by Backroads

[Traveler]

It is ironic that when I was in college thinking about what profession I would pursue – my first choice was to become a teacher.  There was a movie titled “To Sir With Love”.  There was a theme song by the same name as the movie that was popular at the time that had convinced me that teaching youth was the most noble profession that I could pursue.  The standards to become a teacher were quite high and I failed to meet the standards.  I am dyslectic – some are more dyslectic than me, but my problem is that I cannot spell worth a darn – I cannot read phonetically either.  Because I failed remedial spelling 3 semesters in a row, I was kicked out of the education (teaching) department and was forced to become an engineer.  I had also considered teaching Seminary but had to have a teaching certification.   I was quite disappointed.

As I read through this thread, I am very disappointed with the attitudes towards teachers.  I had some poor teachers, but the vast majority of my teachers has a strong influence for good in my life.  I had one teacher that I am sure hated me – but looking back now, it was mostly my fault.  And that teacher did add to my benefit in life.

Currently I have 3 good people I know and am close to that are teachers in our public schools.  Hearing their comments about parents and the problems parents are causing in education is quite different than where the blame is headed on this forum.  Recently a student here in Utah (Davis county) committed suicide.  The student was one of what is currently referred to as a ferry (identifying as an animal).   Other students were making fun (bullying by some definitions) and the teacher was not doing anything about it.  It is important to note that the so-called bullying was not taking place in the class room.  But because the teacher did not support the student in the classroom the school district was sued by the parents, the teacher fired and convicted of a crime – sentenced to probation.  Teachers are not wealthy, and this has destroyed the teacher.  This single case has every teacher in the state (including my 3 friends) scared to death.  All three are close to retirement and losing their pensions would be financially devastating for them.

Perhaps the most devasting element out of all this is that the teachers I know feel abandoned and left out on a limb to die by society that they intended to serve through their profession choice.  I forget who said it but all that evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

forget who said it but all that evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing.

Edmund Burke, but it’s been attributed to many people throughout the years.  

[Backroads]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

As I read through this thread, I am very disappointed with the attitudes towards teachers.  I had some poor teachers, but the vast majority of my teachers has a strong influence for good in my life.

In fairness, a good number of teachers in my circle (colleagues plus others) tend to blame parents for a lot of youth issues even as parents blame teachers when there's likely destructive forces outside either realm.

[LDSGator]

17 minutes ago, Backroads said:

In fairness, a good number of teachers in my circle (colleagues plus others) tend to blame parents for a lot of youth issues even as parents blame teachers when there's likely destructive forces outside either realm.

Wow. Can’t we all just get along? 

[Backroads]

5 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Wow. Can’t we all just get along? 

That's exactly what needs to happen.

 

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

That's exactly what needs to happen.

 

Do you think the majority of these disagreements are legit or are they just from the usual suspects who enjoy arguing and have chips on their shoulder? 

[Vort]

53 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As I read through this thread, I am very disappointed with the attitudes towards teachers.  I had some poor teachers, but the vast majority of my teachers has a strong influence for good in my life.

My experience is the opposite. In public school, I had some good teachers and a few stars, but most of my teachers were mediocre to bad. I don't think I really realized it until I became a parent.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

My experience is the opposite. In public school, I had some good teachers and a few stars, but most of my teachers were mediocre to bad. I don't think I really realized it until I became a parent.

Most of the teachers I had in private school were more forgettable than outright bad. 

[NeuroTypical]

Most of my public school teachers were really good at managing groups of children.  Some were good at teaching.

[Traveler]

 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

My experience is the opposite. In public school, I had some good teachers and a few stars, but most of my teachers were mediocre to bad. I don't think I really realized it until I became a parent.

 

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Most of the teachers I had in private school were more forgettable than outright bad. 

My worse teachers were when I was in college (BYU).  And also some of my best were at BYU (Hugh Nibley, Dr. Hall and Dr Harrison).  I had one of the most meaningful discussions with a high school teacher that told me, “If I make the test and homework really hard there will always be some that will do well and some that will fail.  If I make the tests and homework super easy there will still be some that will do well and some that will fail.  It should be no surprise that in both cases it is always the same that do well and the same that fail.  I have learned that my best efforts are always in pushing the best students to be better.”

I discovered in jr. high school that if a teacher thought I was smart that they would work much harder to successfully teach me.  If they thought I was rather stupid, they were hardly interested in any kind of extended effort to teach me anything.  Mostly, students learn best from the teacher they like but I came to believe that my best effort as a student ought to be to convince the teacher that of all the students they had, that they liked me the most.  Most of this I discovered from a Sunday School teacher at church that became one of my greatest examples of Christ and that love is the greatest motivator of the best teachers – and students as well.

 

The Traveler

[mordorbund]

6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

6 hours ago, Backroads said:

In fairness, a good number of teachers in my circle (colleagues plus others) tend to blame parents for a lot of youth issues even as parents blame teachers when there's likely destructive forces outside either realm.

 

6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Wow. Can’t we all just get along? 

 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

An all-time favorite poster. This should be the official symbol of public education.

Edited May 10, 2024 by Vort

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

My experience is the opposite. In public school, I had some good teachers and a few stars, but most of my teachers were mediocre to bad. I don't think I really realized it until I became a parent.

Ditto.

I had a total of 43 teachers.  5 were stars who not only knew the subject matter well, but they also inspired me to love the subject they were teaching.  5 were decent teachers. But they didn't inspire anything.  They were by-the-book.  The rest... well, I knew the subjects better than they did (beginning in the 4th grade).

[Backroads]

On 5/10/2024 at 10:04 AM, LDSGator said:

Do you think the majority of these disagreements are legit or are they just from the usual suspects who enjoy arguing and have chips on their shoulder? 

Ooh, this is a good question.

Most of the ones I'd be likely to complain and vent about are the ones I view to have chips on their shoulders. Oh, you crazies who expect too much from the opposite camp.

But I also think there's a lot of legitimate philosophical differences in how to approach school where people are determined to get their views heard. People are frustrated.

 

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

Most of the ones I'd be likely to complain and vent about are the ones I view to have chips on their shoulders. Oh, you crazies who expect too much from the opposite camp.

Just once you should barge into their workplace and lecture them on how to do their job. 😉 

Edited May 13, 2024 by LDSGator

[Backroads]

43 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Just once you should barge into their workplace and lecture them on how to do their job. 😉 

One of these days I should relate to you the saga of Ms. PhD living in government housing with her "this is never how I would allow one of my employees to do a 2nd grade math concept!"

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, Backroads said:

One of these days I should relate to you the saga of Ms. PhD living in government housing with her "this is never how I would allow one of my employees to do a 2nd grade math concept!"

I’ve never had an incident personally but I’ve heard stories about parents being idiots at TKD tournaments.

An instructor told me once that she had a parent charge onto the mat to play tough guy but when all three referees (all in shape second degree or above black belts) banded together and just stood there,  the parent decided now wasn’t the best time to be macho. 

[Traveler]

I ran across this YouTube about BYU and thought it was interesting.  I grew up in Provo and personally knew several professors.  In high school I dated sever daughters of professors.  Professors were just other people to me.  I was never afraid to talk to a professor or even offer criticism.  I have also thought that (especially college) is about connections between both the professors and high achieving students.  To be honest, many of my connections over the years have gone off the rails.  And yet many remain.  Because of connections at school – it came naturally to establish connections at work and in some small way here on the forum.

I offer this video for those with a different attitude about education.

 

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

 I have also thought that (especially college) is about connections between both the professors and high achieving students.

That’s absolutely true, but college is about much more than that as well. A lot of us became who we are now in college. 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That’s absolutely true, but college is about much more than that as well. A lot of us became who we are now in college. 

Not sure I understand this.  Growing up math and physics were the only things in school that I was good at doing.  I did have one class in college (math) that I would never have learned (passed) without my professor.   I think, for me, being an apprentice for a profession would have been far more efficient.   I have always thought of a college degree as a piece of paper that would guarantee that I could learn and do whatever my profession required – that in reality – stuff I could have done without going to college.

I would be interested – what about college; made such a big difference for you?

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would be interested – what about college; made such a big difference for you?

 

Combo of the people you meet and the overall environment of college. Lots of different ideas, intelligent people to discuss them with…

[Carborendum]

15 hours ago, Traveler said:

Growing up math and physics were the only things in school that I was good at doing.  I did have one class in college (math) that I would never have learned (passed) without my professor.   I think, for me, being an apprentice for a profession would have been far more efficient.   I have always thought of a college degree as a piece of paper that would guarantee that I could learn and do whatever my profession required – that in reality – stuff I could have done without going to college.

Similar background here.  But different results.

Like you, people were a mystery to me.  Unpredictable.  No discernible rules to understand each individual.  Math was always right or wrong.  No guesswork.  It either was or it wasn't.  We may not know what the solution is. But when we do know, we can easily know it is correct.  And it is always correct.

Unlike you, I do not think I could have learned many of the subjects without an expert there to explain it to me.  Part of it was that I had a reading handicap -- different from yours.  So, I couldn't learn by reading the text alone.  I needed a person to explain the finer details for me to "get it."  So, that was the benefit of college for me.  Professors could give me those finer details.

Beyond that, my growth into adulthood happened at college.  But I don't credit the "educational institution" for that.  It was the social structure and the people.  People in my high school were about the maturity level of high-school children in John Hughes movies.  Not much to aspire to there. 

In college, I made so many friends who were there to learn and grow.  I also found a fantastic group of guys that were my inner circle that were very dedicated to the gospel (BYU).  It was through them that I was disabused of many of the false notions that my parents (and many church instructors) told me growing up.  Since then, I've been astounded to find how many people just "float through" gospel living without actually learning what our history really was and what our doctrines really teach.  And they had a way of discussing it where things all seemed to fit together just right.

As far as academics, I don't know where I could have learned many of the things that I was taught.  Words and terms I'd never heard of before would never have come up in my searching through card catalogues.  And in the tiny town I grew up in, the public library certainly wouldn't have had the books I needed.  There was no Amazon.  There was no internet.  And there were very few engineering companies in town. And they were ready to hire someone who knew what they were doing, not someone who needed an education.

[Carborendum]

On 5/10/2024 at 10:29 AM, Traveler said:

The standards to become a teacher were quite high and I failed to meet the standards...   and was forced to become an engineer.

I find this sequence of eventualities... insulting.

Edited May 15, 2024 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Similar background here.  But different results.

Like you, people were a mystery to me.  Unpredictable.  No discernible rules to understand each individual.  Math was always right or wrong.  No guesswork.  It either was or it wasn't.  We may not know what the solution is. But when we do know, we can easily know it is correct.  And it is always correct.

Unlike you, I do not think I could have learned many of the subjects without an expert there to explain it to me.  Part of it was that I had a reading handicap -- different from yours.  So, I couldn't learn by reading the text alone.  I needed a person to explain the finer details for me to "get it."  So, that was the benefit of college for me.  Professors could give me those finer details.

Beyond that, my growth into adulthood happened at college.  But I don't credit the "educational institution" for that.  It was the social structure and the people.  People in my high school were about the maturity level of high-school children in John Hughes movies.  Not much to aspire to there. 

In college, I made so many friends who were there to learn and grow.  I also found a fantastic group of guys that were my inner circle that were very dedicated to the gospel (BYU).  It was through them that I was disabused of many of the false notions that my parents (and many church instructors) told me growing up.  Since then, I've been astounded to find how many people just "float through" gospel living without actually learning what our history really was and what our doctrines really teach.  And they had a way of discussing it where things all seemed to fit together just right.

As far as academics, I don't know where I could have learned many of the things that I was taught.  Words and terms I'd never heard of before would never have come up in my searching through card catalogues.  And in the tiny town I grew up in, the public library certainly wouldn't have had the books I needed.  There was no Amazon.  There was no internet.  And there were very few engineering companies in town. And they were ready to hire someone who knew what they were doing, not someone who needed an education.

You and I are somewhat similar.  For me, everything has to be logical, or I cannot relate.  Math and physics are logical.   When reading, I look at a sentence or paragraph and pull out the logic.  Often when I am reading aloud, I will leave words out or change some words.  This seems to upset lots of people that are about phonics.   I skip over lots of stuff, especially in novels when the author likes to write in misdirection.   I have given up on Stephen King because all he does is misdirection.  What I do not relate to – I ask questions.  In college I would pre-read the chapter then ask questions in class to resolve what I did not understand.  My goal was to complete the homework during class.

I admit to being somewhat of a troublemaker – especially for professors that wrote the textbook and forced all the students to purchase their own copy and would update the additions to prevent purchasing used textbooks.  When I found errors in our current lesson, I would ask the professor to explain the step with the error to see how quickly they could figure out there was a problem.   Just like good teachers challenge the best students – I believed that good students challenge the best teachers.  I learn the best when I am able to ask lots of questions.

I used to think everybody was like me or should be.  What I have learned is that I am the odd one that is different and that I am the one most likely to cause the communication difficulty.  What I have learned is that the best teams have different types – each doing what they do best.  I believe I could work very well with you.  You seem to be very good at things that I am not so good at.

 

The Traveler

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I find this sequence of eventualities... insulting.

Insulting to who?  Teachers or engineers?

 

The Traveler