Was the Fruit in Lehi's Dream an Olive?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I was recently reading about Lehi's dream and Jacob Chapter 5 and had the thought that the fruit of the tree of life is a White Olive. Just based on the symbolic meaning of the olive in scripture.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-1-no-1-2000/autumn-olives-atonement

Edited September 11, 2023 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I was recently reading about Lehi's dream and Jacob Chapter 5 and had the thought that the fruit of the tree of life is a White Olive. Just based on the symbolic meaning of the olive in scripture.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-1-no-1-2000/autumn-olives-atonement

You ever tried a fresh olive off the tree?

Amazingly bitter, inedible, and nasty.  Im actually amazed that our ancestors had the patience and insight to properly prepare and brine them.

https://homegrownhappiness.com/salt-brine-cured-olives/

The above is a detailed process how to brine your own.  18 steps that can take up to 6 months with weekly brine changing…

”most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted”   - nowai!

I vote no.

Edited September 8, 2023 by mikbone

[mikbone]

Jeremiah 11:16 indicates that even Israel itself was called by Jehovah “a green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit.” 

Yup. Israel has had to go through multiple brining processes.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

29 minutes ago, mikbone said:

You ever tried a fresh olive off the tree?

Amazingly bitter, inedible, and nasty.  Im actually amazed that our ancestors had the patience and insight to properly prepare and brine them.

https://homegrownhappiness.com/salt-brine-cured-olives/

The above is a detailed process how to brine your own.  18 steps that can take up to 6 months with weekly brine changing…

”most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted”   - nowai!

I vote no.

Maybe that is why Lehi said that. It was a surprise to him.

[JohnsonJones]

I think it was something different than a fruit we know, but if I had to guess a fruit I would probably guess something more like dates.

Maybe he had heavily (and I mean so heavy that they are white) sugared (though getting the right type of sugar I'm thinking of in his time may not be a feasible thought) Dates.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Then again, in 2 Ne 2:15, Lehi suggests that the fruit of the tree of life (in Eden) is bitter; in opposition to the forbidden fruit, which he describes as sweet.  

[laronius]

12 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Then again, in 2 Ne 2:15, Lehi suggests that the fruit of the tree of life (in Eden) is bitter; in opposition to the forbidden fruit, which he describes as sweet.  

This is an interesting point. As Joseph Smith stated, some things that are not allowed at one point are allowed and even encouraged at other times. I think this is the case here. As Alma stated:

12:26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

Eating of the tree of life at that point would have brought damnation upon Adam and Eve because they were not ready for it. It is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes the fruit sweet. And that could not have happened unless Adam and Eve were expelled from their paradise and set the plan of salvation in motion. The tree Lehi saw was the post-fall tree of life with it's fruit ripened by the love of God.

[Carborendum]

On 9/10/2023 at 11:58 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Then again, in 2 Ne 2:15, Lehi suggests that the fruit of the tree of life (in Eden) is bitter; in opposition to the forbidden fruit, which he describes as sweet.  

Why is one Tree of Life (Eden) bitter and the other Tree of Life (Lehi's) sweet?

[mikbone]

On 9/10/2023 at 9:58 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Then again, in 2 Ne 2:15, Lehi suggests that the fruit of the tree of life (in Eden) is bitter; in opposition to the forbidden fruit, which he describes as sweet.  

Lehi had probably just eatten:

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Why is one Tree of Life (Eden) bitter and the other Tree of Life (Lehi's) sweet?

Alma 12:26

Quote

26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

Alma 42:5

Quote

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

Sounds bitter to me.  IMO, it was the circumstances which made it bitter or sweet.

[Carborendum]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:32 PM, zil2 said:

Alma 12:26

Alma 42:5

Sounds bitter to me.  IMO, it was the circumstances which made it bitter or sweet.

Thanks, but I wasn't asking where in scriptures does it characterize them in this manner.  I was asking about the differences between the trees that use the same imagery.

• In the Garden, we have a tree that was called "The Tree of Life".  This tree happened to be bitter.
• In Lehi's dream, we have a tree that was called "The Tree of Life".  This tree happened to be sweet.
• I do not believe they were the same tree.  I think they were completely different origins, different images, and different representations for different messages and purposes.

When something like this happens in literature, we tend to want to equate them because they use the same title.  But when they are in completely different contexts, I don't know if that would be an accurate assumption.

• We know that the tree in the Garden was so named because it made someone live forever.
• Why was the tree in the dream so named?  Obviously, some people fell away after partaking of it, so it was not the same thing.  So, why did he call it the tree of life?

It is interesting to note that Lehi never calls this "The Tree of Life".  Nephi does without any explanation as to why the appellation fits.

The tree of life in the Garden made a person live forever, regardless of sin or virtue.  But the tree in the dream was desirable to make one happy.  And Nephi calls it "The Love of God."  Alma talks about the Tree of Life without specifying which it was (Alma Ch 5 & Ch 32).  But by context, it is obviously what Nephi was talking about.  This is hardly the same thing as what is described in the Garden.

So, why do two things in scriptures have the same name while being two completely different things?

[JohnsonJones]

16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Thanks, but I wasn't asking where in scriptures does it characterize them in this manner.  I was asking about the differences between the trees that use the same imagery.

• In the Garden, we have a tree that was called "The Tree of Life".  This tree happened to be bitter.
• In Lehi's dream, we have a tree that was called "The Tree of Life".  This tree happened to be sweet.
• I do not believe they were the same tree.  I think they were completely different origins, different images, and different representations for different messages and purposes.

When something like this happens in literature, we tend to want to equate them because they use the same title.  But when they are in completely different contexts, I don't know if that would be an accurate assumption.

• We know that the tree in the Garden was so named because it made someone live forever.
• Why was the tree in the dream so named?  Obviously, some people fell away after partaking of it, so it was not the same thing.  So, why did he call it the tree of life?

It is interesting to note that Lehi never calls this "The Tree of Life".  Nephi does without any explanation as to why the appellation fits.

The tree of life in the Garden made a person live forever, regardless of sin or virtue.  But the tree in the dream was desirable to make one happy.  And Nephi calls it "The Love of God."  Alma talks about the Tree of Life without specifying which it was (Alma Ch 5 & Ch 32).  But by context, it is obviously what Nephi was talking about.  This is hardly the same thing as what is described in the Garden.

So, why do two things in scriptures have the same name while being two completely different things?

 

Hmm, only conjecture here on my part.

With Adam, if he had died and been ressurected somehow, or lived forever, he would have had no way to be cleansed from his sins.  This would lead to eternal separation (damnation) from our Father.  This would be a very bitter pill to take.

With the Savior, and the sacrifice and atonement, we also can live forever.  The difference is that because of his atonement, we can be cleansed from our sins.  This means that we do not need to be separated from our Father if we so choose.  The reason the Savior did this was his love for each and everyone of us.  Because of this love, each and everyone will be resurrected and receive a resurrected body.  Because of this love, we can live in the Kingdom of Heaven in one of the three glories.  This is not a bitter fruit, but perhaps the sweetest and most delightful fruit that we could be offered.

They both are the Tree of Life.  Both offer eternal life of a sort, but only ONE (Love) offers salvation with possible exaltation.  Thus, from one aspect, Life is bitter if eaten, while on the other, it is extremely desireable.

[Traveler]

On 9/8/2023 at 8:44 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I was recently reading about Lehi's dream and Jacob Chapter 5 and had the thought that the fruit of the tree of life is a White Olive. Just based on the symbolic meaning of the olive in scripture.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-1-no-1-2000/autumn-olives-atonement

In case it was not noticed – I was away.  Mostly in the UK on holiday which included a holiday away from the internet and news.  This is the reason I have not responded sooner.

Some years ago, through work, I befriended an engineer from Bahrain.  As our friendship grew, we shared our deepest religious ideas and concepts.    He gave me a translation of the Quran and I gave him a Book of Mormon.  One of his first points of interest in the Book of Mormon was the Tree of Life in Lehi’s dream.

He was open that few “Christians” understand the Arabic peoples and culture.  According to him Allah gave the Arabic people three great gifts – one of the three gifts is called “The Tree of Life”.  This tree is a date palm and a particular variety that produces white fruit.  Of course, there are many types of date palm trees but there is an especially prized white fruit variety – the best of which is grown in Arabia near the Red Sea – which is where Lehi was when he had the dream.  The reason this is fruit is prized is because the fruit can be picked when ripe and will not spoil for months in the hot Arabian climate.  It is also sweet and good for you.  It is called the tree of life because it is nutritious and will sustain life (food) while traveling on long trips across the barren deserts of Arabia.

I personally like this as the possible tree seen by Lehi because it is of special significance to those that traveled the barren wilderness that Lehi and his family faced – something that they would especially understand.

Sometimes I think that symbolic revelation relies heavily upon things that have great significances in our lives.   Though the type of tree and fruit many not mean much to us Christian types – this little tidbit in the Book of Mormon has great impact on those from that part of the world (Arabic peoples – who are mostly Islamic and as a witness to the divinity of the Book of Mormon) where Lehi and his family once walked.

 

The Traveler

Edited September 18, 2023 by Traveler