Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Sep - 17 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 6 - 1 Nephi 18)

zil2 · September 10, 2023

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). This is the thread for the first full week. Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. Each thread will be discussions on that week's readings. Just to make it easier on everyone, I'm going to ping all those who have expressed a desire to participate. This is the only thread where I'll do that.

@Jamie123, @Vort, @laronius, @askandanswer, @JohnsonJones, @pam, @Carborendum, @Just_A_Guy

Index to all threads:

Repeat of the full schedule:

X	Date	Read Through
	Sep 9	1 Nephi 3
	Sep 10	1 Nephi 5
	Sep 11	1 Nephi 8
	Sep 12	1 Nephi 11
	Sep 13	1 Nephi 13
	Sep 14	1 Nephi 14
	Sep 15	1 Nephi 16
	Sep 16	1 Nephi 17
	Sep 17	1 Nephi 18
	Sep 18	1 Nephi 20
	Sep 19	1 Nephi 22
	Sep 20	2 Nephi 2
	Sep 21	2 Nephi 3
	Sep 22	2 Nephi 5
	Sep 23	2 Nephi 8
	Sep 24	2 Nephi 9
	Sep 25	2 Nephi 11
	Sep 26	2 Nephi 15
	Sep 27	2 Nephi 19
	Sep 28	2 Nephi 23
	Sep 29	2 Nephi 25
	Sep 30	2 Nephi 26
	Oct 1	2 Nephi 28
	Oct 2	2 Nephi 31
	Oct 3	Jacob 1
	Oct 4	Jacob 3
	Oct 5	Jacob 5
	Oct 6	Jacob 5
	Oct 7	Enos 1
	Oct 8	Omni 1
	Oct 9	Mosiah 1
	Oct 10	Mosiah 2
	Oct 11	Mosiah 4
	Oct 12	Mosiah 7
	Oct 13	Mosiah 9
	Oct 14	Mosiah 11
	Oct 15	Mosiah 13
	Oct 16	Mosiah 15
	Oct 17	Mosiah 18
	Oct 18	Mosiah 21
	Oct 19	Mosiah 23
	Oct 20	Mosiah 26
	Oct 21	Mosiah 27
	Oct 22	Mosiah 29
	Oct 23	Alma 2
	Oct 24	Alma 4
	Oct 25	Alma 5
	Oct 26	Alma 7
	Oct 27	Alma 9
	Oct 28	Alma 10
	Oct 29	Alma 12
	Oct 30	Alma 14
	Oct 31	Alma 15
	Nov 1	Alma 17
	Nov 2	Alma 19
	Nov 3	Alma 21
	Nov 4	Alma 23
	Nov 5	Alma 25
	Nov 6	Alma 27
	Nov 7	Alma 30
	Nov 8	Alma 31
	Nov 9	Alma 32
	Nov 10	Alma 34
	Nov 11	Alma 36
	Nov 12	Alma 37
	Nov 13	Alma 40
	Nov 14	Alma 43
	Nov 15	Alma 43
	Nov 16	Alma 46
	Nov 17	Alma 47
	Nov 18	Alma 49
	Nov 19	Alma 51
	Nov 20	Alma 52
	Nov 21	Alma 55
	Nov 22	Alma 56
	Nov 23	Alma 58
	Nov 24	Alma 60
	Nov 25	Alma 62
	Nov 26	Helaman 1
	Nov 27	Helaman 3
	Nov 28	Helaman 5
	Nov 29	Helaman 6
	Nov 30	Helaman 8
	Dec 1	Helaman 11
	Dec 2	Helaman 12
	Dec 3	Helaman 14
	Dec 4	3 Nephi 1
	Dec 5	3 Nephi 3
	Dec 6	3 Nephi 4
	Dec 7	3 Nephi 7
	Dec 8	3 Nephi 9
	Dec 9	3 Nephi 11
	Dec 10	3 Nephi 13
	Dec 11	3 Nephi 16
	Dec 12	3 Nephi 18
	Dec 13	3 Nephi 20
	Dec 14	3 Nephi 22
	Dec 15	3 Nephi 26
	Dec 16	3 Nephi 28
	Dec 17	4 Nephi 1
	Dec 18	Mormon 2
	Dec 19	Mormon 5
	Dec 20	Mormon 7
	Dec 21	Mormon 9
	Dec 22	Ether 2
	Dec 23	Ether 4
	Dec 24	Ether 7
	Dec 25	Ether 10
	Dec 26	Ether 12
	Dec 27	Ether 13
	Dec 28	Moroni 2
	Dec 29	Moroni 7
	Dec 30	Moroni 9
	Dec 31	Moroni 10

Enjoy!

Edited December 22, 2023 by zil2

pam · September 11, 2023

Thank you @zil2for doing this. I really appreciate you taking the lead on this.

zil2 · September 11, 2023

6 hours ago, pam said:

Thank you @zil2for doing this. I really appreciate you taking the lead on this.

Gladly!

Jamie123 · September 11, 2023

Two things spring to mind from this reading.

Firstly there are references to the salvation of individuals (like in 6:4) which are by no means common is the Old Testament. (I know this is not the Old Testament, but it does belong to the world of the OT.) In the OT, the emphasis is much more on "salvation" on a national level - the restoration of Israel as a nation. (Though i suspect we all see the vicissitudes of Israel as a metaphor for those of our individual lives.)

I wonder how people of that period would have interpreted the phrase "...I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved". Would they have seen this like Christians today (conservative Christians at least) as "going to Heaven after we die" because there is no strong tradition of this revealed in the Old Teatament?

Another thing is the very powerful imagery of Lehi's vision - particularly the "iron rod". No matter how dark and misty the way seems, so long as you are holding the iron rod you know you are going the right way. It is a very comforting picture, especially in dark times. Knowing that there is something strong like iron to anchor us when everything around us is in a whirl of confusion.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Jamie123

zil2 · September 11, 2023

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Firstly there are references to the salvation of individuals (like in 6:4) which are by no means common is the Old Testament. (I know this is not the Old Testament, but it does belong to the world of the OT.) In the OT, the emphasis is much more on "salvation" on a national level - the restoration of Israel as a nation. (Though i suspect we all see the vicissitudes of Israel as a metaphor for those of our individual lives.)

I wonder how people of that period would have interpreted the phrase "...I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved". Would they have seen this like Christians today (conservative Christians at least) as "going to Heaven after we die" because there is no strong tradition of this revealed in the Old Teatament?

Something to keep in mind is that we Latter-day Saints believe that all the prophets, from Adam on down, knew about the coming of Jesus Christ and his role as our Savior. So while others may think this language is unusual for OT-era people, we think it's perfectly normal and that the only reason it's not found more clearly in the Bible is that the knowledge was lost or obscured over time.

19 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Another thing is the very powerful imagery of Lehi's vision - particularly the "iron rod". No matter how dark and misty the way seems, so long as you are holding the iron rod you know you are going the right way. It is a very comforting picture, especially in dark times. Knowing that there is something strong like iron to anchor us when everything around us is in a whirl of confusion.

Christ is the iron rod. Christ's words are the iron rod. Hold to the rod. (Variation that is how we sing it in church meetings, as opposed to how the Choir sing it - which isn't always the same.)

zil2 · September 11, 2023

11 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Something to keep in mind is that we Latter-day Saints believe that all the prophets, from Adam on down, knew about the coming of Jesus Christ and his role as our Savior. So while others may think this language is unusual for OT-era people, we think it's perfectly normal and that the only reason it's not found more clearly in the Bible is that the knowledge was lost or obscured over time.

Another thought on this - in 7:14 it talks about Jeremiah having been cast into prison. While the OT may have the book of Jeremiah, keep in mind that the winners write history. By the time the Lord came, the Jews were more than a little rebellious and unwilling to recognize him, so why wouldn't those with the power have altered records to obscure or even remove prophecies about him? Alternately, perhaps the OT was given like parables - so those who would see, could, and those who wouldn't see could delude themselves.

zil2 · September 11, 2023

1 Nephi 6

This chapter, once you know, is evidence of the missing 116 pages (I assume).

Is the "fulness of mine intent" to persuade people to come to Christ and be saved? Do I write (and speak) things that are pleasing to God or things that are pleasing to people? Do I waste my "space" with things of no worth?

Chapter 7

I wonder if while Nephi and Sam were talking to Ishmael, Laman and Lemuel were out back conspiring with the rebellious among Ishmael's children to recruit help in getting out of this lark their father had started them on. (I mean, you just have to wonder, you know?) Clearly the families already knew each other...

v7: Zil's hyper-independent response: Grow up, you big babies. Go back to Jerusalem or shut up and cooperate. (v15 - Nephi was more polite.)

v10+: Never forget the witnesses and blessings God has given you!

v21: Zil might not be as quick to forgive...

v22: Proper gratitude again.

Chapter 8

v1: Emergency preparedness.

v5-9: What happened to the man in the white robe? Who was he? Was he a good person and Lehi let himself get distracted, as we so often do? Or was he a false angel - a follower of Satan - deceiving Lehi, leading him into waste?

v8: Don't wait until after you've been in the darkness for many hours before calling on the Lord - call sooner!

v12: Coming to Christ fills you with joy. If that's not what you're feeling, you're not there yet. It also fills you with a desire to share with those you love...

v15: Don't leave the Lord to go find others - stay with him and invite them to join you!

v20: strait is the gate and narrow the way...

v23: Expect occasional darkness. Hold to the rod. Stay on the path.

v25+: The world will mock you for following Christ - ignore them! Don't be ashamed! (PS: They have no foundation - their fall is gonna be unpleasant.)

v30: Fall down at the Savior's feet and stay.

v35: How sad Lehi must have been.

v37: Don't give up on the wayward.

JohnsonJones · September 11, 2023

54 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Two things spring to mind from this reading.

Firstly there are references to the salvation of individuals (like in 6:4) which are by no means common is the Old Testament. (I know this is not the Old Testament, but it does belong to the world of the OT.) In the OT, the emphasis is much more on "salvation" on a national level - the restoration of Israel as a nation. (Though i suspect we all see the vicissitudes of Israel as a metaphor for those of our individual lives.)

I wonder how people of that period would have interpreted the phrase "...I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved". Would they have seen this like Christians today (conservative Christians at least) as "going to Heaven after we die" because there is no strong tradition of this revealed in the Old Teatament?

Another thing is the very powerful imagery of Lehi's vision - particularly the "iron rod". No matter how dark and misty the way seems, so long as you are holding the iron rod you know you are going the right way. It is a very comforting picture, especially in dark times. Knowing that there is something strong like iron to anchor us when everything around us is in a whirl of confusion.

That is a good question.

In Judaism today, there are many different ideas of what may happen after this life. Not all of them even believe in a life after this one. It really depends on the sect of Judaism that you follow.

As @zil2 mentioned, we believe that the prophets had knowledge of the plan of salvation, even in the time of the Old Testament. They were aware of the vital role that Jesus Christ would play in the Salvation and Exaltation of Mankind. This is why they prophesied of a Savior. It was more than just a prophecy concerning a Phyiscal Savior for the Jews from Slavery or difficulty (though it was often used as a parallel), and it was more than just a King. They KNEW of the atonement.

With something that important. why would the Lord hide such a thing?

When we read the New Testament it sometimes comes across that the Lord ALSO felt that others should know this. It seems sometimes he would point things out and seem almost annoyed when those in power didn't seem to acknowledge it or how he was fulfilling such prophesies.

The bigger question about this particular chapter (6) I think would be how Nephi (and this isn't just Nephi, it occurs throughout the Book of Mormon) seems to be addressing men in general and mankind in general. Rather than simply focusing on the Children of Israel, at times it seems to be applying words that are far broader in relation than simply those who were the Chosen people of the Lord (at the time of it's writing).

Chapter 6 also seems to be something of a thought that Nephi has in relation to what the preceding writing had him involved with. He and his brothers just had gone and gotten their family records which contain their genealogy as well as the gospel. It is an interesting parallel between the verses you write on and the end of Chapter 5 where his father is directing his thoughts that the records would be found among those who were the Children of Lehi in the future (5:18).

It may be then that they are doing something which we read about in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament when they talk about something it normally is directed at the Children of Israel or those who are descendants of Jacob (and thus also Abraham and Issac). Though these commandments and the things they teach are directed towards them, it is also (in our modern Christian understanding) also directed to us and all Christians. Thus, the Old Testament and what it contains still applies to us (in the areas which were not fulfilled and hence no longer need to be done in our worship such as blood sacrifice) even though it is the New Testament where the Gentiles are explicitly encompassed as worshipers of our Lord.

The General Language it sometimes has that seems to apply to all (though the Judaic interpretation would have been strictly to those who were of the House of Jacob) really DOES apply to all in those situations, similar to how it applies to those in the Old Testament.

Turning this back into the idea of Saving and salvation then we look through the Old Testament. In it, many of the first times we read about it is concerning saving them from Physical foes or right before they fight enemies (such as David fighting the Philistines) and the claim that they shall be saved. Reading some of these more in a Christian Context though can reveal that men such as David understood the idea of a Savior and being Saved.

Ex. Psalm 34:17-22 -

17 The righteous cry, and the Lord heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.

18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.

20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

22 The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Psalm 69 is also a great example of a Messianic Psalm.

Various other places (such as Isaiah and Jeremiah) have meanings which read from a messianic view relate to this idea of being saved.

In the same way, Nephi and his brethren have just been saved themselves. They were saved from the clutches of King Laban and his servants which had pursued them to kill them, as well as saved in being able to accomplish their quest against such impossible odds.

Just like how David's writings and prayers of being saved when against the philistines or against Saul or other impossible odds would have been seen by the Israelites and later the Jews as the Lord saving him from his enemies, they would have also viewed Nephi's statement.

However, from an elevated view of Christianity and how we can have a broader understanding of David's statements and Psalms, we understand that it also is discussing salvation in the spiritual sense. In this way, those who ALSO knew about the coming Lord and his true mission (the atonement of all men) could understand that David was talking about a Messiah that would save us in the afterlife as well as this life, they would probably also understand that Nephi is also discussing this (though with Nephi it is a tad more direct since we are already reading it in that fashion).

Carborendum · September 12, 2023

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

In the OT, the emphasis is much more on "salvation" on a national level - the restoration of Israel as a nation. (Though i suspect we all see the vicissitudes of Israel as a metaphor for those of our individual lives.)

Jews did perceive it that way. That is why there is debate about what is meant by Daniel's term "Son of Man." Jews say this refers to a nation (Jews). And Christians usually say that is an incorrect interpretation, it obviously refers to the Messiah which will be God among us (Emmanuel).

We have to remember that this "communal salvation" is not what Daniel knew about. It was the Jews' interpretation to shoe horn in this idea of "Son of Man" without giving credence to the Christian idea of the Messiah.

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

Something to keep in mind is that we Latter-day Saints believe that all the prophets, from Adam on down, knew about the coming of Jesus Christ and his role as our Savior.

Yes. But I need to point out another point: Sealing.

There is a saying that has been repeated several times in various General Conferences:

Quote

Salvation is an individual phenomenon.

Exaltation is a family phenomenon.

I've read many explanations of why we must have a "welding link all the way back to Adam." I don't want to dismiss them. But for the most part, they only give the most mortal explanations (families are important to help us stay on the path, etc.). But the divine reason is something much greater. There is a reason why exaltation is a family phenomenon. There is a reason for the necessity of that welding link.

I don't think I've ever heard a real explanation for the eternal reason for that principle, only earthly reasons for it. Yet, I know the eternal reason is there. It exists. I thought I understood it once when I was in deep contemplation. But as soon as I began to explain it, it fled my mind.

There is something real in the sealing. It isn't just husbands and wives that have the important bond. There is also something very important about the parent-child bond. I just wish I could hold it in my mind long enough to explain it.

zil2 · September 12, 2023

39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just wish I could hold it in my mind long enough to explain it.

Perhaps if you gave up on the idea of explaining it and rather embraced the idea that God was giving you a gift for which most are not prepared, then He would let you remember it. (Just a thought - not everything the Lord tells us should be shared.)

zil2 · September 12, 2023

1 Nephi 9

v5-6: represent a principle, IMO. The Lord often asks us to do things without always explaining why. Like Nephi, we should trust that the Lord has good reason, and obey regardless of understanding.

Chapter 10

The wording in this chapter does make it seem as if plain understanding about Christ had been lost and Lehi was learning it anew - in essence, restoring the gospel, as many a prophet had to do over the ages.

v4: I've heard some outside the Church make a big deal out of the precise timing (600 years), and why these people had that but the Jews didn't. My thoughts there: (1) I don't know who knew what back then. (2) Lehi and his party could not cause any problems in the areas where Christ would come - they couldn't afford the airfare or satellite phones, so it would do no harm for them to know, and might help them to have hope. But if the precise timing were known among the Jews, just think of the scheming and violence and chaos that would have ensued. It would have been far worse than it was.

v8: The admonition to "make [the Lord's] paths straight" has always seemed strange to me. I wonder what cultural or linguistic information I'm lacking to make the meaning of this more clear. (I can make up stuff, but it's me making up stuff and I suspect there's something from the culture of the time that I'm lacking.)

v17, 19 and Chapter 11+: You can choose to believe what prophets tell you and be content with the witness that their word is true, or you can also seek to know of yourself. The second is harder.

Chapter 11

[Klaw is making adorable sleeping-stretching squeaky noises. :wub: ]

v1: We must make an effort to gain spiritual knowledge - more than just asking for it.

v4: (see also Ether 3:11) Belief, even pre-belief (aka complete trust in God and real intent to act according to what he reveals) is key to receiving knowledge from the Spirit.

v4-6: (rephrased):

Spirit: "Do you believe your father saw the tree?"

Nephi: "Yes."

Spirit: "You are blessed because you believe in the Son of God"

... that the tree is Christ doesn't get any clearer.

v7: Once you have a witness of the Son of God, you are obligated to bear record of Him.

v10: The Spirit doesn't just volunteer everything - Nephi has to have considered what he wants to know and has to ask for it in detail.

v11-12 & 14: I wonder why the Spirit of the Lord leaves and an angel takes his place from here on.

v33: I heard one person object that crucifixion wasn't a thing yet (as of 600 BC), so how could Nephi speak of it as if he were familiar with the idea? (1) v31 "and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me" - we're not getting the narrative, but the angel is there explaining it all; (2) this isn't 16-year-old Nephi writing these events, this is much-older Nephi writing about things he's known since he was 16, so of course he's going to be comfortable using the language to relate these ideas.

(Not gonna try picking this chapter apart further - there's just so much here...)

Jamie123 · September 12, 2023

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

Not gonna try picking this chapter apart further - there's just so much here...)

I totally agree. Your analysis here I incredibly thorough already and my comments are not going to be able to match it.

The main thing that struck me here was the clarity with which the life and ministry of Jesus is summarised (not just the 600 years). The closest parallel I can think of in the Old Testament is the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah but most modern Jews (so I understand) don't even recognise that as being about the Messiah at all but about Israel as a nation (though I don't think this was always the case). It would be hard for there to be any such interpretation of this passage.

Anyway thanks Zil for all your effort on this. I think I'm going to have to read through all your comments a few more times.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Jamie123

zil2 · September 12, 2023

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I totally agree. Your analysis here I incredibly thorough already and my comments are not going to be able to match it.

The main thing that struck me here was the clarity with which the life and ministry of Jesus is summarised (not just the 600 years). The closest parallel I can think of in the Old Testament is the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah but most modern Jews (so I understand) don't even recognise that as being about the Messiah at all but about Israel as a nation (though I don't think this was always the case). It would be hard for there to be any such interpretation of this passage.

Anyway thanks Zil for all your effort on this. I think I'm going to have to read through all your comments a few more times.

I've been reading the Book of Mormon for a long time - others catch a lot I don't, and I try to learn from them. Others understand the culture and history - Hugh Nibley (apologist) has a book called Lehi in the Desert which was fascinating - he explains things like the significance of "my father dwelt in a tent", or calling a valley firm, steadfast, and immovable when those are things we would think apply to mountains, not valleys.... But at the end of the day, I'm at a point where all I want from my scripture study is understanding and encouragement to become a better disciple of Christ - so that's usually what I look for...

And yeah, lots and lots clearer than the OT makes it - my previous comments apply here. A Christian reading the OT is baffled at how the Jews don't see all the references to Christ, but I guess when your culture has long held other understandings of the same verses, you'd think the "new-comers" are the crazy ones... (Sort of like Latter-day Saint interpretations of many scriptures - others think we're nuts because they've got their own explanations that are long accepted.)

Anywho - glad to help. Thanks for giving me a different approach to reading this time through - except for Sunday School, I've never read the BofM in a group. (ETA: Though our group appears to be slacking - perhaps we need to cry repentance already! )

Edited September 12, 2023 by zil2

Jamie123 · September 13, 2023

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

Anywho - glad to help. Thanks for giving me a different approach to reading this time through - except for Sunday School, I've never read the BofM in a group. (ETA: Though our group appears to be slacking - perhaps we need to cry repentance already! )

Maybe the others are reading but just not commenting. Even if it's just you and me Exchanging comments I think it will still be worthwhile 😀

Jamie123 · September 13, 2023

Today's reading is difficult for me to comment on without getting myself into trouble. But I'll try, and sorry if i upset anyone.

The "dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations" would appear to be the Native Americans. Similarly the "great and abominable church" would seem at first glance to be the Roman Catholic Church - or perhaps all forms of Christianity between the Apostolic Age and the early 19th Century. Its hard to square such an interpretation with what goes on nowadays - with Russell M. Nelson meeting Pope Francis and saying what a wonderful leader he is. (Happy birthday to Pres. Nelson BTW.)

In 13:12 we have "man among the Gentiles" - could this be a reference to Christopher Columbus? (Or else possibly Leif Ericsson?) Then the colonisation of America. "In captivity" seems a strong turn of phrase. The people who colonised America were not by and large prisoners in Europe, and they were not forcibly held back from emigrating. (Perhaps we're not intended to take "captivity" too literally.) Then we have the War of Independence, "their mother Gentiles" presumably referring to the British.

Then the "book from the mouth of a Jew" - clearly the Bible - which is a version of Laban's plates, stripped of important content by this "abominable church" which he calls it "the mother of harlots". (That's pretty strong language!)

Anyway, like I say I do find this all rather prickly reading. There's also a lot more here I haven't commented on. I'll re-read it a few times before adding anything else.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Jamie123

zil2 · September 13, 2023

“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”
― L.P. Hartley, The Go-Between

Easy answers:

Yes, (some?) native Americans - in all the Americas. Yes, Columbus. Yes, the Bible. Yes, the British (though perhaps all the places from which folks came to America). And, in the following passage from chapter 13, "church" is not necessarily a formal mortal organization, but rather, a description of those who follow Satan, knowingly or not:

Quote

...Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

If this sounds like the Roman Catholic Church (or any other) at a certain point in its history, well, that's to the condemnation of those who were involved, but doesn't have to apply to the organization at any other point, nor to all its members...

It might be important to remember that chapter 11 ended with seeing multitudes gathered to fight against the apostles of the Lamb, and predicting the destruction of any who do so.

1 Nephi 12

v10-11: Faith in Christ cleanses and saves.

v17: Temptation can blind you. Hold to the rod, even when blinded.

v15+: When Nephi sees the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites, the angel chooses this time to explain the earlier vision's symbolism of the river representing hell, and the mists of darkness representing temptation, the large and spacious building as pride, and the gulf between them and the tree as the justice of God. It made me think of President Nelson's "Peacemakers Needed" talk from last Conference. We know that it's the Nephites' choice to embrace wickedness - rebelliously - that led to this war and their destruction. I think the point is to teach us what comes of giving in to temptation, pride, and rebellion - and it scales down from a societal level to smaller groups to individuals - good things don't happen, not even to the "winners" - who are left to dwindle in unbelief, full of idleness and abominations. Just don't go there. Be humble.

@Jamie123, FWIW, no matter how literal Nephi intended it, the descriptions he used (dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, committing abominations) sure seem to me to be accurate when describing those who embrace wickedness - not the ordinary decent person who succumbs to temptation now and then, but whole societies devoted to wickedness, as occasionally appear in the Book of Mormon. And I expect we could draw a parallel to the Old Testament stories where God sent Israel in with commands to kill everyone and everything...

Chapter 13

v4-9: How to recognize Satan's influence: Behavior (persecuting followers of Christ) and Desires (riches, display of riches, harlots, praise of the world). See also v26-27.

v11: The wrath of God is only ever poured out upon those who are ripe in iniquity. I have to assume there were some very wicked things going on in the Americas when the first Europeans arrived. (NOTE: It is often by the wicked that the wicked are slain... Also, chapter 12 ended with Nephi seeing generations of war among the Lamanites.)

v13: Yes, I think captivity means something different to Nephi than what we might think. But at the least, they were seeking religious freedom, or freedom from oppression due to their religious beliefs...

v16: Be humble, rely on God and He will bless you.

v29: Never stop studying the word of God - you need to learn it all, so that you don't stumble and Satan doesn't have power over you because of your confusion.

v33+: Stay true to Christ because the alternative is unpleasant.

v37: peace & mountains vs chapter 12's depths of hell

v39+: The point of all scripture is to convince all of the truth of the testimony of prophets and apostles - Jesus is the Christ.

Translation of v40 for Jamie:

Quote

The Book of Mormon and other latter-day scriptures shall establish the truth of the Bible, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from the Bible; ...

This vision continues in tomorrow's reading.

Edited September 13, 2023 by zil2

askandanswer · September 13, 2023

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Today's reading is difficult for me to comment on without getting myself into trouble. But I'll try, and sorry if i upset anyone.

The "dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations" would appear to be the Native Americans. Similarly the "great and abominable church" would seem at first glance to be the Roman Catholic Church - or perhaps all forms of Christianity between the Apostolic Age and the early 19th Century. Its hard to square such an interpretation with what goes on nowadays - with Russell M. Nelson meeting Pope Francis and saying what a wonderful leader he is. (Happy birthday to Pres. Nelson BTW.)

In 13:12 we have "man among the Gentiles" - could this be a reference to Christopher Columbus? (Or else possibly Leif Ericsson?) Then the colonisation of America. "In captivity" seems a strong turn of phrase. The people who colonised America were not by and large prisoners in Europe, and they were not forcibly held back from emigrating. (Perhaps we're not intended to take "captivity" too literally.) Then we have the War of Independence, "their mother Gentiles" presumably referring to the British.

Then the "book from the mouth of a Jew" - clearly the Bible - which is a version of Laban's plates, stripped of important content by this "abominable church" which he calls it "the mother of harlots". (That's pretty strong language!)

Anyway, like I say I do find this all rather prickly reading. There's also a lot more here I haven't commented on. I'll re-read it a few times before adding anything else.

I think that a more recent understanding of LDS beliefs on some of these topics can be obtained from the Encyclopaedia of Mormonism. See. for example

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Columbus,_Christopher

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Catholicism_and_Mormonism

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Christians_and_Christianity

zil2 · September 14, 2023

Only one chapter today. I'm wondering about the logic used in the tool that generated our schedule... Still, I won't complain about an easy day...

1 Nephi 14

All we have to do to retain our freedom (as a nation or people) is follow Christ. Alas, it seems our country is doomed.

Jamie, we believe that the "great and marvelous work" mentioned in v7 is the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (FYI.)

v10: This creates lots of controversy because folks tend to think of "church" as "a formal organization". Consider that this may not mean that. For example, I've heard at least one evangelical preacher use "church" synonymously with "followers of Christ". I think there's argument for both interpretations, but mostly, I think that those who strive their best to follow Christ, whatever their flavor of Christianity, are not part of the church of the devil... (Note that striving to follow Christ and claiming to be Christian are not necessarily the same thing.)

v13: can help clarify this (issue from v10), I think - who is gathering multitudes to fight against the Lamb of God? (Of course, we may need to be careful here not to be too literal - for example, a supposedly Christian church that fights against the things Jesus taught - in favor of things he never taught, but which they claim he did or at least would, is in fact fighting against the Lamb of God...)

v14: "...upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord" - are these two different groups? Latter-day Saints consider anyone who is baptized (and really, children born to parents who are sealed in the temple) to be the covenant people of the Lord. So, is this verse being redundant, or is Nephi saying that there are the covenant people and there are those who are earnest followers of Christ but who have not made covenants? It's easy to see "saints" and say this means Latter-day Saints, but I'm not 100% convinced...

And just for a bit of diversity, here is my rendering of the great and spacious treat puzzle tower...

KlawTreatTower.jpg.a5c77806930f00ec8a406e2d3519ec5f.jpg

Klaw is sleeping (in his week-old new bed, for the first time - hooray), so you'll have to wait to learn how well received this tower is. I'm sure eventually I'll be telling you about the fall of this great and spacious treat puzzle tower...

Edited September 14, 2023 by zil2

Jamie123 · September 14, 2023

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

v10: This creates lots of controversy because folks tend to think of "church" as "a formal organization". Consider that this may not mean that. For example, I've heard at least one evangelical preacher use "church" synonymously with "followers of Christ". I think there's argument for both interpretations, but mostly, I think that those who strive their best to follow Christ, whatever their flavor of Christianity, are not part of the church of the devil... (Note that striving to follow Christ and claiming to be Christian are not necessarily the same thing.)

In the Church of England we use the word "Church" in exactly the same way. The Nicene Creed states "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins". "Catholic" here has nothing to do with Roman Catholicism - it means "universal" - the Church made up of all true believers whatever their denomination.

Another interesting point: not all scholars accept that "John of Patmos" (who wrote Revelation) was necessarily the same pearson as the apostle John, brother of James. This text does clarify that they are the same.

askandanswer · September 14, 2023

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

And just for a bit of diversity, here is my rendering of the great and spacious treat puzzle tower...

I'm not well known for my design and architectural skills so I have to ask - is this before or after the fall of the building?

zil2 · September 14, 2023

9 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm not well known for my design and architectural skills so I have to ask - is this before or after the fall of the building?

Fair point. It's before - the tubes are to hold treats so Klaw has to figure out how to get them out - not much of a mental challenge here, even for a kitty, but it's more entertaining for him than just giving him dry food / treats.

askandanswer · September 14, 2023

I made it as far as verse 7 today

I'm guessing that despite the footnotes, that this reference to stumbling blocks refers to the loss of plain and precious parts of the bible.

1 Nephi 14:1

Book of Mormon

1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks

Is Nephi only talking about/to one group of Gentiles here - those that will end up upon the promised land?

1 Nephi 14:2

Book of Mormon

2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.

This reminds me a little of Alma 49:22

1 Nephi 14:3

Book of Mormon

3 yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

I can't think of any major religious organisation, Christian or not that meets these two criteria of a) having been founded by the devil and b) for the purpose of leading away the souls of men down to hell. This idea that there is such a church seems contrary to the teachings of Moroni 7: 12 - 14

1 Nephi 14:3

Book of Mormon3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell

Is repentance sufficient to save a soul from perishing?

1 Nephi 14:5

Book of Mormon

5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.

The angel continues to limit his remarks to the Gentiles.

1 Nephi 14:6

Book of Mormon

6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.

This sounds like there are only two outcomes - peace and life eternal or being brought down into captivity and destruction, both temporally and spiritually.

1 Nephi 14:7

Book of Mormon

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken

zil2 · September 14, 2023

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

This reminds me a little of Alma 49:22

Quote

Alma 49:22 Now when they found that they could not obtain power over the Nephites by the pass, they began to dig down their banks of earth that they might obtain a pass to their armies, that they might have an equal chance to fight; but behold, in these attempts they were swept off by the stones and arrows which were thrown at them; and instead of filling up their ditches by pulling down the banks of earth, they were filled up in a measure with their dead and wounded bodies.

Just double checking: Is this what you meant?

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I can't think of any major religious organisation, Christian or not that meets these two criteria of a) having been founded by the devil and b) for the purpose of leading away the souls of men down to hell. This idea that there is such a church seems contrary to the teachings of Moroni 7: 12 - 14

"church" does not have to mean "religious organisation" (or even "religious organization"). It can mean "bunch of people who believe in the same set of ideas".

Quote

Moroni 7:12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

This sounds like there are only two outcomes - peace and life eternal or being brought down into captivity and destruction, both temporally and spiritually.

For reasons which have not been revealed, as far as I know, the Lord chose not to give more detail to the Nephites in general. Whether their prophets knew more, and how much more, we don't know. But yeah, all of the Book of Mormon talks as if there are only two options after mortality.

Edited September 14, 2023 by zil2

Jamie123 · September 15, 2023

11 hours ago, zil2 said:

"church" does not have to mean "religious organisation" (or even "religious organization"). It can mean "bunch of people who believe in the same set of ideas".

We're back to the earlier mention of "church" with Laban. It's an appropriate but unfortunately misleading word.

askandanswer · September 15, 2023

21 hours ago, zil2 said:

Just double checking: Is this what you meant

Yes, I was just noting that both Alma 49:22 and 1st Nephi 14:3 make reference to ditches filled with bodies

Edited September 15, 2023 by askandanswer

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Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Sep - 17 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 6 - 1 Nephi 18)

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