Israel declares war

[mirkwood]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

Interviewer: I'm here with the one and only Michael Jordan! Michael, do you think the 1996 Bulls could beat LeBron's 2023 Lakers in a seven-game series?

MJ: Absolutely. We'd sweep them.

Interviewer: How about the 2023 champs, the Nuggets?

MJ: Yeah, they were a tough team, but we would beat them in a seven-game series. Probably 4-3.

Interviewer: What?! Not a sweep or even six or less? Why do you think they'd take you to seven games? Do I detect a lack of confidence?

MJ: Well, we're all like 60 years old now.

 

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

Back on topic.  I've been very busy the past little while so not able to comment.

With the recent events it makes me wonder if wiping out a group of people is ever justified or not?

I've seen many pro-palestinian things recently and also I have seen a lot of Restraint on Israel.

We speak of the terrible things the Nazi's did leading up to and during World War 2, inclusive of the Holocaust.

This event was where a bunch of people blamed the Jews for many of their troubles and then proceeded to try to kill all of them within their territories, or eventually to kill all of them and wipe them out.

Instead, we wiped out the Nazi's, though we didn't kill everyone, and there were still some remnants left to bring about the Nazi and Neo-Nazi's of today with their ideology.

You probably will not take my word for it (very few on these forums ever do, even when I post articles or other items), but Hamas wants to genocide the Jews.  They are supported by a LOT of Palestinians (enough to keep power, and from what I've seen, those in Gaza are willingly allowing them to do so and fully support them.  This means that you have a group of people that would not just wipe out Israel if given the chance, but do so by killing every Jew in Israel.  They would not do it humanly either (and what the Germans did would be seen as Humane if you knew what Hamas would do if given the chance to).  They would torture the Jews to death for spectacle, entertainment, and revenge.  They would kill every Man, Woman, Child, and Baby of the Jews. 

I do not see this attitude going away.

How do you deal with a people that want to wipe out another from the face of the earth like a rabid animal.  Are you then justified at getting rid of them?  Of course, if you did that, it probably also would be seen as a genocide?  How does one respond to such hatred.

People try to claim that Hamas was driven to this because of Israel.  I disagree.  Hamas could have acted as other nations and states have.  They have some of the most beautiful beach areas of the Mediterranean if they so desired to have them.  They have the perfect climate for it.  They could be swelling with money if they so desired.  They don't desire.  They only desire one thing (which I pointed out above)...the genocide of the Jews.

Israel have actually dealt with this with a GREAT DEAL of restraint in my opinion.  Considering what the type of group they are up against and what that group would do if the situation was reversed...it is insane to think about how restrained Israel has been.

To put it in scale...because we are much larger than Israel the attack on us would need to be a LOT more violent and larger...If another nation came in and nuked the entire state of Rhode Island...literally nuked it out of existence with multiple small nukes, and then went through Connecticut door to door killing any American they could find...We would nuke the HECK out of whatever nation did that to us most likely.  We wouldn't care about Human rights or niceties, we'd simply use the nuclear option once it was used on us. 

Israel has not yet even responded in kind like we would have.  Think about that.  I am solidly pro-Israel currently in this issue...but I find more and more out there are turning against them in regards to this event. 

 

[Traveler]

 

Getting back to the initial op – there is a point that is confusing to me.  The problem may be news coverage or something else that I have entirely missed.  My confusion concerns the protesters, including the protesters here in the USA that are not Muslem.  It appears to me that the protesters make no distinction between Hamas and the Palestinians - as though they are, to the all individuals, one and the same.  Likewise the same to the citizens of Israel, whether they are Jewish or different sects of Judaism or not Jewish at all but are citizens of Israel.  Is everything all or nothing?

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

With the recent events it makes me wonder if wiping out a group of people is ever justified or not?

 

No. There, solved it for you. In one sentence! 

[JohnsonJones]

48 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

No. There, solved it for you. In one sentence! 

 

That's been the strategy previously though.  The plan during the Cold War was to wipe one group of people off the face of the earth before they could do it to you.  The chances of it being successful quickly enough though pretty much guaranteed MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) which is why it never occurred. 

However, the strategy was to wipe out the other side, eradicate them much more fully than almost any other genocide has ever done in the history of the world. 

We did it to the Nazi's overall in World War 2, though that was also successful due to other factors besides straight up killing them all.

We would have been forced to do it to the Japanese in World War 2 if Nuclear Bomb strategy had not worked to convince them to surrender (and it almost didn't).

The British did it to the Indian Cults (not to be confused with the Native Americans) as they fought several groups in India.

The United States practically did it during myriad Indian Wars (Native American Wars) on this continent. 

In the Bible it's what Joshua was ordered to do (though, as it wasn't completed, they were scourged by that decision for centuries after).

If you have a nest of vipers in your child's room, do you try to move them to another place when the animal control can come collect them and move them to the wilderness, or do you try to kill them all as soon as possible?

If it was a choice between having your entire family eradicated and tortured to death in a lingering and painful execution or eliminating the enemies which want to do that to you...which do you choose?

Because, if given the chance, Hamas is going to kill each and every Jew in Israel if they can. 

We may think it's an easy decision, but when it's your or them, what do you choose?  What should you choose?  To die and have your entire people genocided instead...or to act and stop those who want to do that (after they've attacked multiple times, denied any treaty for peace because...they want to genocide you...so obviously peace is out of the question for them...and now have killed some of your family already again with the intent to kill all of you if possible) after they've started to attempt to do so?

Saying, no it is not acceptable is an easy answer.  But I'm not so sure it's always that simple.  We, as a nation (US or UK), have obviously practiced that strategy to wipe an enemy out entirely, inclusive of those who are non-combatants in some wars in the past.   It is easy to tell others that they shouldn't do so when we are in a position of safety and they are the ones who are threatened with Genocide (for the record, Israel is not threatening Genocide of the Palestinians or Hamas at this time, though HAMAS basically HAS declared a genocide on the Jews in Israel).

The last time we actually were threatened with a genocide type act before the Cold War was probably certain areas during the Indian Wars (yes, there were tribes of Native Americans that when they waged war, it basically be to wipe out everyone of a certain tribe or group in an area), and we basically responded in kind at times (not always, but certain instances we went pretty barbaric).  If we were threatened today, if 911 is any indication (which was not a genocide type attack, it was basically just an attack on US soil, at which point we made it a point to basically try to wipe out Al Quada and anyone we thought dealt with them) we would absolutely scream for genocide of the perpetrators if they wanted to genocide the US and proceeded to do an attack on the scale related to us to what happened in Israel (basically, take out the states of RI and Conn), at least if past behavior predicts what we would do.

 

PS: I'm not saying it's the correct course of action, or necessarily the righteous course of action.  I've just been thinking on what the proper response to someone who wants to genocide your own people is if you realize they will NEVER stop trying and someday if they get the power, they WILL do just that. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by JohnsonJones
clarity

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Getting back to the initial op – there is a point that is confusing to me.  The problem may be news coverage or something else that I have entirely missed.  My confusion concerns the protesters, including the protesters here in the USA that are not Muslem.  It appears to me that the protesters make no distinction between Hamas and the Palestinians - as though they are, to the all individuals, one and the same.  Likewise the same to the citizens of Israel, whether they are Jewish or different sects of Judaism or not Jewish at all but are citizens of Israel.  Is everything all or nothing?

 

The Traveler

There is a desire to lump them all into one group.

In the Gaza Strip, a GUESS on my part is that at least 75% of the population there support HAMAS.  This is not all of the Palestinians.  Gaza Strip is actually only one portion where Palestinians live.  There are many of them in other parts of Israel and the adjoining areas (The West Bank for example). 

Ironically, what I hear is HAMAS has sworn the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew there, but I haven't actually heard how they would deal with those who are NOT Jewish in Israel.  From how they've acted I'm not sure they will make much distinction, but I do not know. 

Palestinians as individuals differ greatly.  I know some as individuals that are great people.

As a people though, they tend to create problems in many areas (not just Israel) that they go.  This has caused problems with some of those that may be their friends otherwise. 

[LDSGator]

28 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

That's been the strategy previously though.

I’m a very stupid man @JohnsonJones. In one sentence I want you to tell me if you are cool with eradicating a group of people from the Earth. One sentence. 

[JohnsonJones]

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m a very stupid man @JohnsonJones. In one sentence I want you to tell me if you are cool with eradicating a group of people from the Earth. One sentence. 

I think it's a harder question to answer than people make it out to be.

That's the answer.

An even shorter answer would be...

I don't know.

That's the answer.

Remember, just 30 years ago that was the Strategy of the United States of America towards the USSR and the Eastern Bloc.

It is STILL a limited strategy that we hold as one to use in case of nuclear attack on the United States (we literally have the strategy to genocide RACES of people in some cases as we eliminate the nation they are found in by carpeting their land with nuclear weapons).  Is it the right strategy to have?

  I don't know. 

Now, you can answer this.  If a family came up to wipe out your entire family and killed your kid, would you allow them to kill the rest of your family, or how would you react?

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I think it's a harder question to answer than people make it out to be.

That's the answer.

An even shorter answer would be...

I don't know.

That's the answer.

Remember, just 30 years ago that was the Strategy of the United States of America towards the USSR and the Eastern Bloc.

It is STILL a limited strategy that we hold as one to use in case of nuclear attack on the United States (we literally have the strategy to genocide RACES of people in some cases as we eliminate the nation they are found in by carpeting their land with nuclear weapons).  Is it the right strategy to have?

  I don't know. 

Now, you can answer this.  If a family came up to wipe out your entire family and killed your kid, would you allow them to kill the rest of your family, or how would you react?

I said one sentence. I didn’t read past the first sentence. 

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

There is a desire to lump them all into one group.

In the Gaza Strip, a GUESS on my part is that at least 75% of the population there support HAMAS.  This is not all of the Palestinians.  Gaza Strip is actually only one portion where Palestinians live.  There are many of them in other parts of Israel and the adjoining areas (The West Bank for example). 

Ironically, what I hear is HAMAS has sworn the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew there, but I haven't actually heard how they would deal with those who are NOT Jewish in Israel.  From how they've acted I'm not sure they will make much distinction, but I do not know. 

Palestinians as individuals differ greatly.  I know some as individuals that are great people.

As a people though, they tend to create problems in many areas (not just Israel) that they go.  This has caused problems with some of those that may be their friends otherwise. 

Hamas won roughly 44% of the overall vote in the 2006 election. They didn't win a majority of overall votes, they just won more than any other party. Hamas control of Gaza came only after infighting between them and Fatah, the party of Yasser Arafat which currently controls the West Bank. So no, I don't think it's necessarily accurate to say that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas. Their support may be proportionally higher in Gaza due to the restrictive nature of Israeli occupation there, but there's an entire generation of young adults in Gaza who never got a vote, so it's hard to say for sure.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Hamas won roughly 44% of the overall vote in the 2006 election. They didn't win a majority of overall votes, they just won more than any other party. Hamas control of Gaza came only after infighting between them and Fatah, the party of Yasser Arafat which currently controls the West Bank. So no, I don't think it's necessarily accurate to say that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas. Their support may be proportionally higher in Gaza due to the restrictive nature of Israeli occupation there, but there's an entire generation of young adults in Gaza who never got a vote, so it's hard to say for sure.

Why stop at the Palestinians? Why not everyone who prays towards Mecca?

[JohnsonJones]

13 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I said one sentence. I didn’t read past the first sentence. 

So, while I answered your question I can expect you will not answer mine?

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

So, while I answered your question I can expect you will not answer mine?

Correct, because I asked for one sentence and you either were unable to do so or deliberately ignored me. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by LDSGator

[Just_A_Guy]

59 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m a very stupid man @JohnsonJones. In one sentence I want you to tell me if you are cool with eradicating a group of people from the Earth. One sentence. 

I think part of the issue here may be that @JohnsonJones’s terminology of “wipe them out” isn’t really helpful or, in my view, a terribly accurate descriptor of what American military policy was in the various conflicts he mentions.  The US has certainly pursued resounding, unambiguous military victories that utterly destroyed an enemy’s capacity to make war; and it has been willing to accept civilian casualties (sometimes massive amounts of them) as collateral damage in pursuing that goal.  It has also developed ballistic nuclear capabilities as a retaliatory/deterrent (I don’t think any mainstream American in the Cold War seriously thought that a first-strike nuclear attack was something we would do or that would be in alignment with our values or who we were as a people).  These are both very different than a calculated strategy to completely destroy a group of people for mere racial or ethnic or cultural reasons, which I think is what JJ’s verbiage unfortunately connotes.

39 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Hamas won roughly 44% of the overall vote in the 2006 election. They didn't win a majority of overall votes, they just won more than any other party. Hamas control of Gaza came only after infighting between them and Fatah, the party of Yasser Arafat which currently controls the West Bank. So no, I don't think it's necessarily accurate to say that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas. Their support may be proportionally higher in Gaza due to the restrictive nature of Israeli occupation there, but there's an entire generation of young adults in Gaza who never got a vote, so it's hard to say for sure.

Frankly, I think discussions like this ask the wrong question.  The question isn’t whether a critical mass of Palestinians would vote for Hamas due to some aspect or other of their official party platform.  The question is whether a critical mass of Palestinians support the 10/7 attacks; whether most of ‘em get their jollies off of the rape of Israeli women or the maiming of Israeli children.  Hamas doesn’t have a monopoly on that kind of ideology or sociopathy.

A recent poll suggested that a bare majority of Americans between 18 and 24 believes that the 10/7 attacks were justified.  If support for Jew-killing is that high among a subset of (largely non-Palestinian) Americans, you’re going to have a hard time convincing me that Palestinians aren’t at least bloody-minded.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

@JohnsonJones
 

Lets twist this a bit. I keep hearing about how prevalent human trafficking is. I’ve been told how wrong I am and that it’s everywhere.

I know of several incidents where people have been assaulted at LDS wards and have been criminally convicted. Therefore, I say we should immediately close all wards and no woman or child would be victimized ever again. 

ifyou can throw all Palestinians in the same boat it’s extremely hard to whine when someone does the same to you. 
 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

think part of the issue here may be that @JohnsonJones’s terminology of “wipe them out” isn’t really helpful

Agree. 

[LDSGator]

This is blunt, but I don’t care.

I’m as pro Israel as you get but even insinuating that all Palestinians are the same or deserve to be killed shows you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. No apologies. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by LDSGator

[Phoenix_person]

26 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A recent poll suggested that a bare majority of Americans between 18 and 24 believes that the 10/7 attacks were justified.  If support for Jew-killing is that high among a subset of (largely non-Palestinian) Americans, you’re going to have a hard time convincing me that Palestinians aren’t at least bloody-minded.

I feel like "my side" has fumbled this one pretty badly. A lot of us believe that the Hamas attacks are understandable given the way Palestinians in Gaza have historically been treated, but that doesn't mean that the deaths of innocent civilians is justifiable. The anger and predisposition to violence makes sense, but the attacks on civilians is reprehensible. I think a lot of people on both sides of the issue are failing to see that dialectic. 

[LDSGator]

11 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I feel like "my side" has fumbled this one pretty badly. A lot of us believe that the Hamas attacks are understandable given the way Palestinians in Gaza have historically been treated, but that doesn't mean that the deaths of innocent civilians is justifiable. The anger and predisposition to violence makes sense, but the attacks on civilians is reprehensible. I think a lot of people on both sides of the issue are failing to see that dialectic. 

I’m sympathetic to the Palestinian cause…until they go around murdering innocent civilians.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

A lot of us believe that the Hamas attacks are understandable given... 

Everything humans do is understandable.  I understand the rise of Hitler, Nazi Germany, and the 3rd Reich.  It's absolutely understandable.  Post-WWI Germany was a mess, its economy in shambles, it's national identity bruised, its cultural attitude of hopeless depression.  Hitler's rousing and impassioned speeches helped him rise in the Weimar Republic's German Worker's Party, which became the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which became the Nazi party.  Germany was ripe to be energized with strong doses of fear- and hate-based anti-communism, antisemitism, and ultranationalism.  The trains ran on time, the gays and gypsies and mentally deficient all got killed.  The party rose in prominence although never making it to majority status.  Until the Reichstag burned, and Hitler was named chancellor.  By then, the German people were growing too scared to speak up or resist.  A few more deaths and manipulations, and dood was Dictator.

Yep, totally, absolutely, unambiguously understandable.  It was so understandable, the entire generation of humans that had to go over to defeat Germany came back and dedicated their lives to making sure people never forgot exactly how understandable it was.  My dad's generation was very clear about things - it happened in Germany, it could happen anywhere.  

Anyway, about the only historical tidbit that doesn't have an eerily clear equivalent with Palestine and Hamas, is that there's no single charismatic leader.  Other than that, holy crap yes, everything that has happened in Palestine since the creation of Israel is equally as understandable as the rise of Nazi Germany.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

37 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Everything humans do is understandable. 

The Columbine massacre was understandable?

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I keep hearing about how prevalent human trafficking is. I’ve been told how wrong I am and that it’s everywhere.

Yes, because you are wrong.

 

 

 

 

As for the genocide question, God seems to think there are times it is okay.

 

Deuteronomy 20

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

 

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Yes, because you are wrong.

 

I’m confident I’m not, but if you say so, sure. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by LDSGator

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Everything humans do is understandable.  I understand the rise of Hitler, Nazi Germany, and the 3rd Reich.  It's absolutely understandable.  Post-WWI Germany was a mess, its economy in shambles, it's national identity bruised, its cultural attitude of hopeless depression.  Hitler's rousing and impassioned speeches helped him rise in the Weimar Republic's German Worker's Party, which became the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which became the Nazi party.  Germany was ripe to be energized with strong doses of fear- and hate-based anti-communism, antisemitism, and ultranationalism.  The trains ran on time, the gays and gypsies and mentally deficient all got killed.  The party rose in prominence although never making it to majority status.  Until the Reichstag burned, and Hitler was named chancellor.  By then, the German people were growing too scared to speak up or resist.  A few more deaths and manipulations, and dood was Dictator.

Yep, totally, absolutely, unambiguously understandable.  It was so understandable, the entire generation of humans that had to go over to defeat Germany came back and dedicated their lives to making sure people never forgot exactly how understandable it was.  My dad's generation was very clear about things - it happened in Germany, it could happen anywhere.  

Anyway, about the only historical tidbit that doesn't have an eerily clear equivalent with Palestine and Hamas, is that there's no single charismatic leader.  Other than that, holy crap yes, everything that has happened in Palestine since the creation of Israel is equally as understandable as the rise of Nazi Germany.

 

And frankly, Germany had legitimate grievances (not against Jews specifically, but in general they had reason to feel angry and betrayed).  The Treaty of Versailles was, in many ways, a monstrosity.

But it became a classic scenario of getting mad at the wrong people, and the ends not justifying the means. And we had to kill a whole lot of Germans before the survivors could be persuaded to abandon their agenda of revenge.  😞

Edited October 28, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And frankly, Germany had legitimate grievances.  The Treaty of Versailles was, in many ways, a monstrosity.  

Didn’t Churchill call WW 2 the “unnecessary war” partially because of the Treaty of Versailles?