Israel declares war

[mikbone]

low tech FTW

[Just_A_Guy]

British thinker Phillip Blond has a really concerning thread on X/Twitter right now.  He’s thinking that Hamas *wants* Israel to respond and get bogged down in a ground war in Gaza, which will then justify a response from the West Bank and the Golan; forcing Israel into a three-front war and possibly eliciting a fifth-column uprising from Israel’s internal Arab minority as well.

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We should and we will.  But in this particular case, I don't believe that "what we should do" will result in "what we hope will happen."  We're just going to see ruin at the end of this.

Sadly, I think you are right. This is what happens when hate rules men's hearts.

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

British thinker Phillip Blond has a really concerning thread on X/Twitter right now.  He’s thinking that Hamas *wants* Israel to respond and get bogged down in a ground war in Gaza, which will then justify a response from the West Bank and the Golan; forcing Israel into a three-front war and possibly eliciting a fifth-column uprising from Israel’s internal Arab minority as well.

I'm not as familiar with Middle Easter affairs as I should be to make the following statement.  But I'll throw it out there and be open to corrections.

As I understand it, most of the Arabs who live in Israel itself want to live in peace with the Jews.  They do, of course, have their political disagreements in government matters as the right and left do in the US.  But they don't necessarily want to turn that into a civil war.

Netanyahu has a difficult task ahead.  He needs to be firm enough and harsh enough to whip the Palestinians back into submission.  But if he goes too far, then the Israeli Arabs will believe it to be more racially/religiously motivated than geo-politically motivated.  Dancing on a pin.

[mikbone]

https://www.prageru.com/video/the-middle-east-problem

 

https://x.com/hananyanaftali/status/1712082136499409074?s=46

 

And the stock market has improved since the war started…

Edited October 11, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

This statement is a pretty powerful read.   Bolding mine, as what I consider the argument ender about who is right and who is wrong here.

Quote

Statement By Lantos Foundation President Dr. Katrina Lantos Swett On Hamas’ Brutal Attack On Israel

 

“As the daughter of the only Holocaust survivor ever to serve in the U.S. Congress, I have watched with horror and revulsion the brutal war that has been launched against Israel and the Jewish people. The savagery and barbarism of the Hamas terrorists has stunned some. For many others, it has merely confirmed what has long been known. Hamas, and its Iranian backers, are explicit in their genocidal intent – namely, to annihilate the Jewish homeland and its citizens. The events of the last days have ripped off the mask. There are no more excuses for any of the apologists for terror or for those who engage in shameful equivocation. There was no more determined supporter of Israel than my late father, Tom Lantos. He understood in a way that most others cannot what had happened to the Jewish people when they were left to the mercy of others. If he were still with us he would be speaking out with unmatched eloquence on the need for the United States and all democratic nations to stand with unflinching determination by Israel’s side. From the moment of its establishment, the state of Israel has faced unending threats to its survival, but the war crimes of the past days have been among the darkest in the history of this small but valiant nation. The vicious attacks have not only been an assault on Israel; they are an attack on civilization itself. The coming days will be extraordinarily difficult and tragic. As Israel strikes back to defend its democracy, its sovereignty and its very survival, there will be further loss of innocent life both in Israel and Gaza. We must be compassionate and clear-eyed about the reality of this war. While Israel makes great efforts to warn and avoid civilians in its attacks, the terrorists target and brutalize civilians. While Israel uses its fighters to protect its citizens, Hamas uses innocent civilians as unwilling human shields to protect its fighters. There is no moral equivalence – both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of this appalling evil. The Palestinian people deserve better. They have suffered too long at the hands of a brutal, corrupt, profoundly hateful regime that tramples on their fundamental rights on a daily basis. As a memorable quote often attributed to Winston Churchill says, “When you are going through hell, keep going.” There is no way to a better future for Israel and the Palestinians without first confronting the hellscape that has been wrought by the terror of Hamas and its paymaster Iran. Hamas will be defeated because of the courage of the people of Israel and the solidarity of defenders of civilization, decency, and human rights around the world. Tom Lantos’ words again echo in our ears with greater power than ever: “The veneer of civilization is paper thin, we are its guardians and we can never rest.”

 

[LDSGator]

Just now, NeuroTypical said:

This statement is a pretty powerful read.   Bolding mine, as what I consider the argument ender about who is right and who is wrong here.

 

I used to share a ward with her and her husband, Congressmen Richard Swett. Without question two of the most loving and kind people you will ever meet. 

[Vort]

When you are going through hell, keep going.

Okay, I can buy that.

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

When you are going through hell, keep going.

Okay, I can buy that.

Famous Churchill quote. 

[EH12NG]

Hamas for whatever reason decided it would be a worthwhile venture to enter the long grass and pull a Tiger by the tail. Guess they'll have to learn the hard way. I hope Israel finds the justice it seeks. 

[mikbone]

Just a reminder.

[JohnsonJones]

On 10/10/2023 at 2:23 PM, NeuroTypical said:

?

Sorry, been a little busy as of late.  Actually, I have been really busy as of late and looks like I'll be continuing to work over the weekend at this rate.

Anyways, I'll try to give a few sources...

From Israel itself...

Trump revealed covert Israeli Mission in Syria to Russians

Little less from Israel

israeli intelligence furious over trumps loose lips

The record from the US side is less upset than the Israeli's were (who were extremely upset for some reason) and tried to play it off without showing that Israel was actually REALLY upset about it...

Isreal was source intelligence trump shared with russia

So...the rumor that I've heard related to that in a big chain up to this event is far more plausible than some others I've heard in thread.

Anyways...I'm for a quick read of the forums and then back to work for me.

[JohnsonJones]

PS:  Latest news I've heard thus far is that the Peacebrokers are trying to broker a Peace between Israel and Hamas at this point.  Gaza is on the verge of running out of supplies and even the Red Cross workers there are saying they are running out.  Israel is at least giving some ear to the Peacebrokers.

Hamas is absolutely refusing to talk or budge or anything.  It's like talking to a blank wall.  I'm not sure what is up but they WANT this to happen to Gaza, or so it seems.  They aren't talking.  Even as Gaza is having great difficulties Hamas is the hard nose ones (well, harder nosed than the Isreali's at least) here it sounds like.

Edited October 12, 2023 by JohnsonJones

[LDSGator]

I saw this very touching political cartoon. 

[Jedi_Nephite]

On 10/10/2023 at 6:52 PM, pam said:

Intelligence is so much more advanced than it was during your time in Vietnam.  This was just outright embarassing on all parts that their intelligence nor the U.S. saw this coming.  Somehow Hamas was able to keep this so much under wraps that even with our advanced intelligence it wasn't detected.

 

I doubt it went undetected.  It was more likely ignored.

[Carborendum]

Why is everyone under the impression that the US didn't know about it?

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Why is everyone under the impression that the US didn't know about it?

Can you prove the US did?

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Why is everyone under the impression that the US didn't know about it?

Because no steps were taken to protect or even warn their citizens - which is a primary purpose of the state department that issues our visas.  If they did know anything the loss of American lives would define a criminal act on their behalf for which there could be prosecutions.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

On 10/10/2023 at 2:23 PM, NeuroTypical said:

On 10/10/2023 at 2:10 PM, JohnsonJones said:

It's far more likely the classified information that Trump gave to the Russians pertaining to Israel was then given to Iran and Iran used it to help plan this attack. 

?

I'm still confused.  

19 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

From Israel itself...

Trump revealed covert Israeli Mission in Syria to Russians

1. This article is from 2017 - six years old.
2. It claims Trump told Russia that Israel discovered "a Syrian Islamic State cell had developed bombs that could be placed in laptops and then go through airport security undetected."
3. Here in 2023, we're thinking Iran funded, helped plan, and possibly helped train Hamas on the operation we saw last week.  An operation that didn't involve laptops or airport security. 
4. What the heck are you talking about JJ?

 

19 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Little less from Israel
israeli intelligence furious over trumps loose lips

Another 6 yr old article.  Clarifies a little - if Trump told Russia "These guys in Syria have laptop bombs that pass airline security", then Russia could put 2 and 2 together, and figure out "That means Israelis must have intelligence assets operating in this certain area, talking to these certain people."  That compromises the assets, but again, JJ, what on earth does it have to do with Hamas hang gliding into Israel to machine gun down innocent civilians?

 

19 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

The record from the US side is less upset than the Israeli's were (who were extremely upset for some reason) and tried to play it off without showing that Israel was actually REALLY upset about it...

Isreal was source intelligence trump shared with russia

Another 6 year old article, talking about the same thing, sharing how mad everyone was at Trump.

Again, JJ, what does "they've got laptop bombs" have to do with Gaza's ~3,000 rockets and insurgents with machine guns?

 

19 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

So...the rumor that I've heard related to that in a big chain up to this event is far more plausible than some others I've heard in thread.

Your last source is a rumor that you've heard about a "chain up".   

JJ, what's a chain up?

What could Russia say to Iran about laptop bombs and Mossad agents possibly have to do with a coordinated rocket and insurgent invasion into Israel?

What are you talking about?

[Traveler]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm still confused.  

.......

What @JohnsonJones is talking about is that Trump compromised Israeli intelligence sources in devolving information – which gave Hamas an intelligence advantage.  If the Hamas attack was a conspiracy to keep Trump from the White House because of intelligence leaks – it is very effective.

The Republicans have been caught very flatfooted – especially the Trump backers in the party.  The fact that the Republicans cannot unite on a speaker (mostly because of hard core Trump backers) at this time of crisis does not do their party favors.  The hard core of Trump backers have a big problem moving forward.  Trump does not play well on the playground – even with his own team.  He wants to call all the plays and tell everybody what to do and anyone that does not agree with him or brings another opinion – he wants to kick off “his” team.  The USA needs to come together – at least the majority of the country.  Trump has played his hand, and it is time for the republicans to fold a losing hand and hope for better cards.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

13 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Trump does not play well on the playground – even with his own team. 

100% agree. That’s why the only people who trust Trump are the other hardcore supporters. The rest of us realize “If this is how Trump treats people, he’ll treat me that way too when I am no longer of use to him.” 

[Traveler]

I have concerns for our Church and church members abroad in various countries.  The Church has developed good relationships with both Israel (Jews in Israel) and many of the leaders in Muslem countries.  Our Jerusalem center is an important and critical asset in Jerusalem.  Likewise, the LDS Church is the only Christian church that I am aware of that is legal in Saudi Ariba. 

At BYU Provo there are both prominent and devout Muslims and Jews on our sport teams.  Those that are aware of Old Testiment prophesies concerning Jerusalem realize that we (as a Church) are very connected to the events of the last days concerning the Jews and Jerusalem.  Those that are aware of the Islamic prophesies concerning a return of Jesus and a 13th Imam or Mahid that will unite the righteous followers of the “prophet” Jesus with Islam also realize we have a connection to the events of the last days concerning Islam.  

As the world becomes divided the Latter-day Saints have a challenge not to become caught up in the world’s divisions.  I am concerned myself – I had thought the correct path in the last days would be more obvious.  I believe that somehow, we need to become a source of light, love and compassion.  I am not sure the turbulent waters that are coming are going to be obvious for the Latter-day Saints and may will vier off course.  I am as concerned for myself as I am for others.  The advice of our prophets is that we must be able to rely on our own spiritual preparations, connections and spirituality (lamp oil).

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Because no steps were taken to protect or even warn their citizens - which is a primary purpose of the state department that issues our visas.  If they did know anything the loss of American lives would define a criminal act on their behalf for which there could be prosecutions.

You're assuming that those in charge are concerned about doing their jobs or protecting American citizens.  I've seen no evidence of that in recent years.

[LDSGator]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're assuming that those in charge are concerned about doing their jobs or protecting American citizens.  I've seen no evidence of that in recent years.

Okay, so you also have no actual evidence of America ignoring intelligence and letting this happen, it’s just your opinion or feelings. 
 

Edited October 13, 2023 by LDSGator

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

what's a chain up?

@JohnsonJones can speak for himself as to what he means by his statements—I certainly have no interest in pretending to be a Urim and Thummim—but I believe he did not mean "chain up" as you're parsing it. Rather, I think he was saying that there was a chain of occurrences leading up to the event under discussion.